Just FYI, NATO was created after WWII, not WWI
Remember when Trump was attacking NATO? Thank your lucky stars he was fired.
- Thread starter odanny
- Start date
Just FYI, NATO was created after WWII, not WWI
healthmyths
Diamond Member
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Yo idiot! Why don't you read what experts tell you that the below countries have increased their OWN defense spending to at least 2% of their GDP... WHICH THEY AGREED TO when they joined NATO...BUT DUMMY it took Trump to get them to increase their spending....geez how dumb are you in international affairs! Stupid!
Last week, NATO announced that in 2020, 10 countries will spend at least 2% of gross domestic product on defense:
Estonia (2.38%)
France (2.11%)
Greece (2.58%)
Latvia (2.32%)
Lithuania (2.28%)
Norway (2.03%)
Poland (2.30%)
Romania (2.38%)
United Kingdom (2.43%)
United States (3.87%)
odanny
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #284
Here is the original quote in starting this thread, as you and your fellow Putin-lovers are still confused, 15 pages in:
What a clusterfuck our response to this invasion would be if Putin's BFF was still in Washington. The world breathes a sigh of relief, along with educated and sensible Americans.
Does that help? Do you need an explanation? I'll try and help you, but not sure that's possible, at this point. And if your Orange Messiah was interested in strengthening NATO, he would not have trashed them publicly, with the intent to please his BFF Putin.
Rigby5
Diamond Member
Not trying to imply NATO went back to WWI in time, but in similarities.
WWI happened because of all the treaties.
Princip assassinated Archduke Ferdinand, but he was trained by the Serbian secret police, The Black Hand.
And Serbia was protected by a treaty with Russia.
And Russia was protected by a treaty with France.
And France was protected by a treaty with England.
So even though Germany was in the right and was the actual victim, WWI started and the US was put on the wrong side.
NATO is the same stupidity all over again.
For example, NATO illegally attacked Qaddafi in Libya because the US did not like him, and now NATO has been responsible for decades of war in Libya between groups like ISIS and al Qaeda, who have taken over.
NATO is one of the most corrupt collections of oligarchs in the world.
It is just like after WWI when England and France decided to divide up the Mideast with the Picard-Sikes Treaty.
Totally corrupt, greedy, illegal, and evil.
Rigby5
Diamond Member
This is not specific, but a start.
Civilians caught in sanctions crossfire need Geneva Convention protection, says UN exper
GENEVA, 08 November 2018/ PRNewswire Policy/-- Sanctions that extend beyond national borders, and which seek to block a country's trade altogether, amount to economic warfare against civilians, an independent expert appointed by the Human Rights Council says. Referring to Iran, Jazairy said...
insurancenewsnet.com
GENEVA, 08 November 2018 /PRNewswire Policy/ -- Sanctions that extend beyond national borders, and which seek to block a country's trade altogether, amount to economic warfare against civilians, an independent expert appointed by the Human Rights Council says.
“These civilians deserve the same protections provided by the Geneva Conventions to people in war,” said Idriss Jazairy, the Special Rapporteur on the effect of sanctions on human rights.
“There is a need for differences between States to be resolved through peaceful means as advocated by the UN Charter, while avoiding exposing innocent civilians to collective punishment. Causing hunger and disease through economic instruments should not be accepted in the 21st century.”
...}
Unlawful Blockades as Crimes Against Humanity | ASIL
www.asil.org
Modern treaty-based international humanitarian law (IHL) focuses on states' responsibility. It prohibits deliberate starvation as a war tactic in international armed conflicts (IACs)[2] and in some non-international armed conflicts (NIACs).[3] Denying humanitarian access is prohibited under Geneva Convention IV, which only governs IACs.[4] Additional Protocol II leaves it subject to the consent of state(s) concerned and does not mandate such obligation in NIACs[5] —consequently, violating this rule is generally not considered a "grave breach" that entails criminal responsibility.
Customary IHL, governing both state and non-state actors, prohibits deliberate starvation and impediment of humanitarian relief, regardless of conflict classification.[6] Though even when the violations constitute war crimes under customary international law, the key obstacle to accountability is finding a court with proper jurisdiction. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) explicitly lists starvation and barring humanitarian relief as prosecutable war crimes when committed in IACs but is silent as to NIACs.[7] Due to this jurisdiction limitation, starvation and impediment of humanitarian relief are unlikely to be prosecuted as war crimes before the ICC when committed in NIACs.
...}
healthmyths
Diamond Member
- Sep 19, 2011
- 30,126
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NOT one link! NOT one FACT...
Now I've taken one of your truly ignorant statements:
A single thermobaric missile could easily wipe out an entire base.
Assuming flat, unobstructed terrain, the MOAB will destroy most residential structures within 1,000 feet of the point of detonation. At 700 feet from ground zero, most buildings will be collapsed. And at 300 feet from ground zero, even heavily built concrete structures will be severely damaged or destroyed.
The Mother of All MOAB Articles | National Review
Taking ‘shock and awe’ to the next level — an analysis of the MOAB’s effectiveness.
www.nationalreview.com
whutTHEYsay
Gold Member
- Jul 9, 2014
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Traitor General Michael Flynn has been Trumps most forward and outspoken toady for Putin since the campaign in 2015. And he still is.
General Michael Flynn agrees with Putin that NATO’s western expansion is aexistential threat to Russian sovereignty.
Traitor General Michael Flynn agrees with Vladimir Putin that Russia has a right to keep all of Ukraine in its “friendship” circles
Flynn’s Neville Chamberlain moment
Original post 22MAR02-POST#0528
Rigby5
Diamond Member
NOT one link! NOT one FACT...
Now I've taken one of your truly ignorant statements:
A single thermobaric missile could easily wipe out an entire base.
Assuming flat, unobstructed terrain, the MOAB will destroy most residential structures within 1,000 feet of the point of detonation. At 700 feet from ground zero, most buildings will be collapsed. And at 300 feet from ground zero, even heavily built concrete structures will be severely damaged or destroyed.
The Mother of All MOAB Articles | National Review
Taking ‘shock and awe’ to the next level — an analysis of the MOAB’s effectiveness.
Wrong.
A MOAB is NOT a thermobaric weapon and is tiny in comparison of destruction zones with thermobaric weapons.
{...
A thermobaric weapon, aerosol bomb, fuel air explosive (FAE)[1] is a type of explosive that uses oxygen from the surrounding air to generate a high-temperature explosion. The fuel–air explosive is one of the best-known types of thermobaric weapons.
While most conventional explosives consist of a fuel–oxidizer premix such as black powder which contains 25% fuel and 75% oxidizer, or a decomposition-type explosive such as RDX, thermobaric weapons are almost 100% fuel and as a result are significantly more energetic than conventional condensed explosives of equal weight.[2] Despite the fact their reliance on atmospheric oxygen makes them unsuitable for use under water, at high altitude, and in adverse weather, they are, however, considerably more destructive when used against field fortifications such as foxholes, tunnels, bunkers, and caves.[citation needed]
The initial explosive charge detonates as it hits its target, opening the container and dispersing the fuel mixture as a cloud.[3] The typical blast wave of a thermobaric weapon lasts significantly longer than that of a conventional condensed explosive.
...
A Human Rights Watch report of 1 February 2000[17] quotes a study made by the US Defense Intelligence Agency:
According to a US Central Intelligence Agency study,[17] "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness." Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that, because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue ... it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate".[18]
...
Many Russian Air Force munitions also have thermobaric variants. The 80 mm (3.1 in) S-8 rocket has the S-8DM and S-8DF thermobaric variants. The S-8's 122 mm (4.8 in) brother, the S-13, has the S-13D and S-13DF thermobaric variants. The S-13DF's warhead weighs only 32 kg (71 lb), but its power is equivalent to 40 kg (88 lb) of TNT. The KAB-500-OD variant of the KAB-500KR has a 250 kg (550 lb) thermobaric warhead. The ODAB-500PM and ODAB-500PMV[32] unguided bombs carry a 190 kg (420 lb) fuel–air explosive each. The KAB-1500S GLONASS/GPS guided 1,500 kg (3,300 lb) bomb also has a thermobaric variant. Its fireball will cover a 150 m (490 ft) radius and its lethal zone is a 500 m (1,600 ft) radius.[33] The 9M120 Ataka-V and the 9K114 Shturm ATGMs both have thermobaric variants.
In September 2007, Russia exploded the largest thermobaric weapon ever made. Its yield was reportedly greater than the smallest dial-a-yield nuclear weapons at their lowest settings.[34][35] Russia named this particular ordnance the "Father of All Bombs" in response to the American-developed Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB) bomb, which has the backronym "Mother of All Bombs" and once held the title of the most powerful non-nuclear weapon in history.[36] The Russian bomb contains a charge of approximately 7 tons of a liquid fuel, such as pressurized ethylene oxide, mixed with energy-rich nanoparticles, such as aluminium, surrounding a high explosive burster that when detonated created an explosion equivalent to 39.9 tons of TNT.[37]
...}
Thermobaric weapon - Wikipedia
{... The blast radius of the FOAB is 300 meters, almost double that of the MOAB, and the temperature produced is twice as high.[9] ...}
Father of All Bombs - Wikipedia
The kill radius is as much as 5 times the blast radius.
Rigby5
Diamond Member
Wrong.
Flynn is correct that Russia can not allow the Ukraine to join NATO any more than the US could allow those Soviet nukes in Cuba.
The fault is with the US, by illegally corrupting the government of the Ukraine.
whutTHEYsay
Gold Member
- Jul 9, 2014
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I never said that traitor General Michael Flynn said that it was NATO’s intention to overthrow Russia. You are a liar.
I said FLYNN “agreed” With baby killer Vladimir Putin the NATO was posing an existential threat to the sovereign nation of Russia.
“So why do Trump advisers like General Michael Flynn agree with PUTIN ON THAT.”
In consideration of the fact that you’re nothing but an ignorant Trump flunky Oldestyle I’ll post for you and the actual Putin expert and what she wrote on the same day that traitor General Michael Flynn posted his devoted subservience to whatever fascist Putin the baby killer says.
“Fiona Hill says the US looks weak to Putin after 4 years of Trump's 'disastrous presidency' and that it helps explain the Ukraine crisis John Haltiwanger Jan 24, 2022, 4:50 PM
Fiona Hill in a new New York Times op-ed published Monday contended that Russian President Vladimir Putin saw an opportunity to renew aggression toward Ukraine after the US was left weakened by four "disastrous" years under former President Donald Trump.
Beyond the impact of Trump's presidency, Hill also pointed to the Afghanistan withdrawal to explain why Putin sees an opportunity to challenge the West on Ukraine. President Joe Biden continues to face criticism in Washington and beyond over his handling of the Afghanistan pullout, which coincided with the Taliban regaining control of the country.
"From Russia's perspective, America's domestic travails after four years of Donald Trump's disastrous presidency, as well as the rifts he created with U.S. allies and then America's precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan, signal weakness," wrote Hill, who served as the top Russia advisor on the National Security Council under the Trump administration.
Trump did not immediately respond to a request for comment from Insider.
Hill, who wrote a biography on Putin, said that the Russian president wants to "evict the United States from Europe."
"In the 1990s, the United States and NATO forced Russia to withdraw the remnants of the Soviet military from their bases in Eastern Europe, Germany and the Baltic States. Mr. Putin wants the United States to suffer in a similar way," Hill said, adding later: "Ukraine is both Russia's target and a source of leverage against the United States."
Russia has amassed military force along Ukraine's border in recent months, sparking fears a new conflict in Europe is on the horizon. The Kremlin says it doesn't plan to invade, but Western powers are skeptical given Moscow's history in the region. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed Crimea and has since supported rebels in a war against Ukrainian forces in the eastern Donbas region.
As the US scrambles for a diplomatic resolution to the situation, Russia has made demands for binding security guarantees — including that Ukraine and Georgia be prohibited from ever joining NATO. The US and NATO have remained firm that the alliance's open-door policy is not up for discussion.
Hill wrote that Putin is hoping "he can strike a new security deal with NATO and Europe to avoid an open-ended conflict, and then it will be America's turn to leave, taking its troops and missiles with it."
The US has warned that Moscow will face severe economic consequences if Russia invades, while weighing sending more troops to Eastern Europe as a deterrent. The Pentagon on Monday said 8,500 US troops are on heightened alert.
lHill warned that another Russian attack on Ukraine would "challenge the entire U.N. system and imperil the arrangements that have guaranteed member states' sovereignty since World War II."
Resolving the escalating crisis "requires acting, not reacting," Hill wrote, urging the US to "shape the diplomatic response and engage Russia on the West's terms, not just Moscow's." She said the US needs to make clear to Putin that he will face "global resistance" in the event of an invasion that would isolate Russia politically and economically.
In November, Hill told Insider that Putin views Ukraine as "unfinished business" and that he's "deadly serious" about taking action.
"One way or another, he wants Ukraine neutralized," she added. "You've got to take it seriously because Russia has crossed the Rubicon many times before when people said they wouldn't
Fiona Hill explains it. It made no fucking difference who the President of the United States was. His intent was to seize Ukraine. Just that traitors like General Michael Flynn as Trump’s national security adviser believed Putin more than our own intelligence and experts like Fiona Hill.
In November, Hill told Insider that Putin views Ukraine as "unfinished business" and that he's "deadly serious" about taking action.
"One way or another, he wants Ukraine neutralized," she added. "You've got to take it seriously because Russia has crossed the Rubicon many times before when people said they wouldn't
Last edited:
Maybe you should learn some world history before you start debating it, but I do share your doubt about how great Nato is
This is not specific, but a start.
{...Civilians caught in sanctions crossfire need Geneva Convention protection, says UN exper
GENEVA, 08 November 2018/ PRNewswire Policy/-- Sanctions that extend beyond national borders, and which seek to block a country's trade altogether, amount to economic warfare against civilians, an independent expert appointed by the Human Rights Council says. Referring to Iran, Jazairy said...
GENEVA, 08 November 2018 /PRNewswire Policy/ -- Sanctions that extend beyond national borders, and which seek to block a country's trade altogether, amount to economic warfare against civilians, an independent expert appointed by the Human Rights Council says.
“These civilians deserve the same protections provided by the Geneva Conventions to people in war,” said Idriss Jazairy, the Special Rapporteur on the effect of sanctions on human rights.
“There is a need for differences between States to be resolved through peaceful means as advocated by the UN Charter, while avoiding exposing innocent civilians to collective punishment. Causing hunger and disease through economic instruments should not be accepted in the 21st century.”
...}
{...Unlawful Blockades as Crimes Against Humanity | ASIL
Modern treaty-based international humanitarian law (IHL) focuses on states' responsibility. It prohibits deliberate starvation as a war tactic in international armed conflicts (IACs)[2] and in some non-international armed conflicts (NIACs).[3] Denying humanitarian access is prohibited under Geneva Convention IV, which only governs IACs.[4] Additional Protocol II leaves it subject to the consent of state(s) concerned and does not mandate such obligation in NIACs[5] —consequently, violating this rule is generally not considered a "grave breach" that entails criminal responsibility.
Customary IHL, governing both state and non-state actors, prohibits deliberate starvation and impediment of humanitarian relief, regardless of conflict classification.[6] Though even when the violations constitute war crimes under customary international law, the key obstacle to accountability is finding a court with proper jurisdiction. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) explicitly lists starvation and barring humanitarian relief as prosecutable war crimes when committed in IACs but is silent as to NIACs.[7] Due to this jurisdiction limitation, starvation and impediment of humanitarian relief are unlikely to be prosecuted as war crimes before the ICC when committed in NIACs.
...}
If you can't show specifically that we ratified it, obviously we didn't
healthmyths
Diamond Member
- Sep 19, 2011
- 30,126
- 11,567
- 1,400
You exaggeratedly stated "A single thermobaric missile could easily wipe out an entire base"Wrong.
A MOAB is NOT a thermobaric weapon and is tiny in comparison of destruction zones with thermobaric weapons.
{...
A thermobaric weapon, aerosol bomb, fuel air explosive (FAE)[1] is a type of explosive that uses oxygen from the surrounding air to generate a high-temperature explosion. The fuel–air explosive is one of the best-known types of thermobaric weapons.
While most conventional explosives consist of a fuel–oxidizer premix such as black powder which contains 25% fuel and 75% oxidizer, or a decomposition-type explosive such as RDX, thermobaric weapons are almost 100% fuel and as a result are significantly more energetic than conventional condensed explosives of equal weight.[2] Despite the fact their reliance on atmospheric oxygen makes them unsuitable for use under water, at high altitude, and in adverse weather, they are, however, considerably more destructive when used against field fortifications such as foxholes, tunnels, bunkers, and caves.[citation needed]
The initial explosive charge detonates as it hits its target, opening the container and dispersing the fuel mixture as a cloud.[3] The typical blast wave of a thermobaric weapon lasts significantly longer than that of a conventional condensed explosive.
...
A Human Rights Watch report of 1 February 2000[17] quotes a study made by the US Defense Intelligence Agency:
According to a US Central Intelligence Agency study,[17] "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness." Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that, because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue ... it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate".[18]
...
Many Russian Air Force munitions also have thermobaric variants. The 80 mm (3.1 in) S-8 rocket has the S-8DM and S-8DF thermobaric variants. The S-8's 122 mm (4.8 in) brother, the S-13, has the S-13D and S-13DF thermobaric variants. The S-13DF's warhead weighs only 32 kg (71 lb), but its power is equivalent to 40 kg (88 lb) of TNT. The KAB-500-OD variant of the KAB-500KR has a 250 kg (550 lb) thermobaric warhead. The ODAB-500PM and ODAB-500PMV[32] unguided bombs carry a 190 kg (420 lb) fuel–air explosive each. The KAB-1500S GLONASS/GPS guided 1,500 kg (3,300 lb) bomb also has a thermobaric variant. Its fireball will cover a 150 m (490 ft) radius and its lethal zone is a 500 m (1,600 ft) radius.[33] The 9M120 Ataka-V and the 9K114 Shturm ATGMs both have thermobaric variants.
In September 2007, Russia exploded the largest thermobaric weapon ever made. Its yield was reportedly greater than the smallest dial-a-yield nuclear weapons at their lowest settings.[34][35] Russia named this particular ordnance the "Father of All Bombs" in response to the American-developed Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB) bomb, which has the backronym "Mother of All Bombs" and once held the title of the most powerful non-nuclear weapon in history.[36] The Russian bomb contains a charge of approximately 7 tons of a liquid fuel, such as pressurized ethylene oxide, mixed with energy-rich nanoparticles, such as aluminium, surrounding a high explosive burster that when detonated created an explosion equivalent to 39.9 tons of TNT.[37]
...}
Thermobaric weapon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
{... The blast radius of the FOAB is 300 meters, almost double that of the MOAB, and the temperature produced is twice as high.[9] ...}
Father of All Bombs - Wikipedia
The kill radius is as much as 5 times the blast radius.
So a single thermobaric can totally wipe out EVERYTHING in 62,435 acres???? Destroy ALL the buildings planes, offices, etc?...
The military bases on this list range in size — from 62,435 acres to more than 3.5 million acres.
America's Largest Military Bases
The United States is the world’s preeminent military power. Though a handful of countries have more military personnel than the United States — here is a list of the countries with the biggest armies — no country spends more on defense. U.S. military spending nearly topped $650 billion in 2018...
247wallst.com
Oldestyle
Diamond Member
Your knowledge of history is almost laughable, Rigby! The Soviets didn't threaten Western Europe after WWII? You might want to brush up on what the Soviets did to Poland. The Katyn Forest massacre specifically. Or their annexation of East Germany and attempt to take West Berlin.
Claiming that Putin is the "good guy" as he bombs hospitals, schools and residential buildings is grotesque! He's evil and you are as well for supporting such a person!
whutTHEYsay
Gold Member
- Jul 9, 2014
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Traitor Putin Toady General Michael Flynn took part in the attempts to overturn the election - therefore having a role in the events culminating in violence against the US Government seeking to restrain Putin’s puppet in power by the use of military force up to and including JAN 6. Flynn is the best spokesperson for Putin on US soil,
Michael T Flynn January 24, 2022 The Biden administration wants us to believe that Russia is seeking to regain its former greatness by overthrowing the government of Volodymyr Zelensky and replacing it with a puppet government that it would control.
As we know now Putin would be attempting with less resistance from the West to overthrow the government of Volodymyr Zelensky and replace it with a puppet government that it would control if Flynn had his way and kept Trump in power.Flynn believed Putin would not attemot to overthrow the government of Volodymyr Zelensky and replacing it with a puppet government that it would control. Flynn is a traitor.
Oldestyle
Diamond Member
We have the capability to supply Europe with oil and natural gas for decades, Rigby. All we need is a President who will let our oil and natural gas companies produce those products. Joe Biden's policies on oil and gas have given Russia this stranglehold on Europe. If he REALLY cared about Ukraine he'd lead a boycott of Russian oil and natural gas while reinstating all of the Trump policies that he got rid of his first few weeks in office so we could allow those European countries to do the right thing without suffering for it!
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