religious study

[Hister]

You are an ass, Hister. But I'll say this for you, you're an ecumenical ass.

Did you ever say why you lapsed? I'm curious, was it a real reason?

If you really care to know, Hister....

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/119042-why-i-am-not-a-christian.html

Knock yourself out. That thread is 90 pages long.

No prob, I'm a speed reader...

Ok, that was pretty interesting, sounds to me more like you never were a believer, so you're not really lapsed. But hey, i totally agree with you on everything! You've made it to the dark side!

 

[Care4all]

Martin, the Torah is more or less the same thing as the Old Testament.

I have a biblical question, if anyone would care to field it:

What is the message of all those boring "so-and-so begat so-and-so" passages?

It was important to the writer of the book because he was Jewish and preaching to Jews in the region, and in the old testament, it was prophesied that the Messiah would come "from the Line of David"....all those begats was the lineage showing such.

 

[Madeline]

O, okay Care4all. Thankies.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have read the Bible several times and currently write and teach the history of Christian thought which takes in the Torah, Talmud, all of the Old Testament, all of the New Testament and beyond. And yet I do not consider myself an expert.

I have also read Qu'ran and the Hadith. Though I am not as familiar with these as with JudeoChristian literature, I can safely say that in my opinion the Qu'ran cannot hold a candle to the Bible as great literature. But it is instructive in getting a glimpse into Islamic thought.

 

[CMike]

There are jews that spend 12 hours a day for their entire lives studying Torah, and wouldn't consider themselves masters of it.

It's very intricate.

 

[Foxfyre]

O, okay Care4all. Thankies.

The problem with the New Testament geneologies is that from David on they are very different in Matthew than they are in Luke. One theory is that Matthew, much more a traditionalist than Luke, traced Joseph's lineage to Jesus; however, the problem with that is that, according to New Testament teachings, Joseph was not Jesus's biological father. The theory goes on that Luke, much more conscious of the new thing that was happening, traced Mary's lineage from David to Jesus.

Whether or not that is a completely accurate conclusion, it does offer an explanation.

 

[CMike]

O, okay Care4all. Thankies.

The problem with the New Testament geneologies is that from David on they are very different in Matthew than they are in Luke. One theory is that Matthew, much more a traditionalist than Luke, traced Joseph's lineage to Jesus; however, the problem with that is that, according to New Testament teachings, Joseph was not Jesus's biological father. The theory goes on that Luke, much more conscious of the new thing that was happening, traced Mary's lineage from David to Jesus.

Whether or not that is a completely accurate conclusion, it does offer an explanation.

Based on the Torah tribe lineage is solely based on the biological father.

Therefore, it's irrelvant what tribe Mary was from.

No one knows who was jesus father, therefore he has no tribe. He would be considered an Israelite, part of the general population.

 

[Foxfyre]

O, okay Care4all. Thankies.

The problem with the New Testament geneologies is that from David on they are very different in Matthew than they are in Luke. One theory is that Matthew, much more a traditionalist than Luke, traced Joseph's lineage to Jesus; however, the problem with that is that, according to New Testament teachings, Joseph was not Jesus's biological father. The theory goes on that Luke, much more conscious of the new thing that was happening, traced Mary's lineage from David to Jesus.

Whether or not that is a completely accurate conclusion, it does offer an explanation.

Based on the Torah tribe lineage is solely based on the biological father.

Therefore, it's irrelvant what tribe Mary was from.

No one knows who was jesus father, therefore he has no tribe. He would be considered an Israelite, part of the general population.

One of the terms ascribed to Jesus is "Lion of Judah", a descendant of David who was of the tribe of Judah. As for who Jesus's father was, he was 'conceived by the Holy Spirit' and his father was God. He never referred to Joseph when he spoke of 'my father'.

Nevertheless, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, either Mary or Joseph had to descend from David and, if we go with the geneologies in Matthew and Luke, it is likely that they both did. As I said, Luke was not nearly the traditionalist that Matthew and Mark were and I believe had a clearer vision and understanding that Jesus was bringing a whole new thing into the mix. And, it is possible that Luke was not Jewish in which case he wouldn't have a problem with using Mary's geneology instead of Josephs. It is interesting that now Jewish heritage is determined by having a Jewish mother more than having a Jewish father.

As for Jewish tradition, Joseph was the head of Jesus's family as Jesus was growing up. In first century Judaism, if your mother was a remarried widow, her new husband would be legally your father. Male Jews were legally the heirs of both their biological father and step-father.

 

[CMike]

The problem with the New Testament geneologies is that from David on they are very different in Matthew than they are in Luke. One theory is that Matthew, much more a traditionalist than Luke, traced Joseph's lineage to Jesus; however, the problem with that is that, according to New Testament teachings, Joseph was not Jesus's biological father. The theory goes on that Luke, much more conscious of the new thing that was happening, traced Mary's lineage from David to Jesus.

Whether or not that is a completely accurate conclusion, it does offer an explanation.

Based on the Torah tribe lineage is solely based on the biological father.

Therefore, it's irrelvant what tribe Mary was from.

No one knows who was jesus father, therefore he has no tribe. He would be considered an Israelite, part of the general population.

One of the terms ascribed to Jesus is "Lion of Judah", a descendant of David who was of the tribe of Judah. As for who Jesus's father was, he was 'conceived by the Holy Spirit' and his father was God. He never referred to Joseph when he spoke of 'my father'.

Nevertheless, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, either Mary or Joseph had to descend from David and, if we go with the geneologies in Matthew and Luke, it is likely that they both did. As I said, Luke was not nearly the traditionalist that Matthew and Mark were and I believe had a clearer vision and understanding that Jesus was bringing a whole new thing into the mix. And, it is possible that Luke was not Jewish in which case he wouldn't have a problem with using Mary's geneology instead of Josephs. It is interesting that now Jewish heritage is determined by having a Jewish mother more than having a Jewish father.

As for Jewish tradition, Joseph was the head of Jesus's family as Jesus was growing up. In first century Judaism, if your mother was a remarried widow, her new husband would be legally your father. Male Jews were legally the heirs of both their biological father and step-father.

This is going to be all based on Judaism and the Torah, not on christian beliefs

1) It's rediculous that G-D is jesus' biological father

There is one and only one divine being based on the Torah.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

2) Torah law doesn't change because christians want to change prophesies in order to create their own messiah.

Tribal lineage goes solely based on the biological father. The one person that matters in tribal lineage is the biological father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father is a kohen, he is a kohen because his father was a kohen.

Mary is completely irrelevant to tribal lineage. The only person that matters was jesus actual father. That is unknown. Therefore, jesus had no tribe, he would be considered an Israelite.

I care nothing about Mark and Luke perverting jewish law for their own ends. Jewish law doesn't change based on their whims.

3) Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies based on the Torah. Those prophesies are.

a) Descendent from David

b) World peace

c) All the jews coming to Israel

d) All the jews remaining in Israel

e) The temple in jerusalem being rebuild and standing forever

All these are found in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

Once again, jesus may be your god, your messiah, and whatever else you make him to be.

However, that has nothing to do with the Torah, jewish law, or the G-D that the jews worship.

 

[Kalam]

I have read the Bible several times and currently write and teach the history of Christian thought which takes in the Torah, Talmud, all of the Old Testament, all of the New Testament and beyond. And yet I do not consider myself an expert.

Very interesting. If I had more time in my schedule I'd like to take classes like that.

I have also read Qu'ran and the Hadith. Though I am not as familiar with these as with JudeoChristian literature, I can safely say that in my opinion the Qu'ran cannot hold a candle to the Bible as great literature. But it is instructive in getting a glimpse into Islamic thought.

You haven't heard it in Arabic.

Which translation was it? Keep in mind that the Qur'an wasn't really meant to be read as a book; at least not exclusively. It is supposed to be heard as a recitation, committed to memory, and practiced. That's how the companions (RA) of the Prophet (SAWS) learned it, and their community is the example that we strive to emulate.

I'm assuming you didn't read through an entire multi-volume hadith collection... or did you?

 

[Hister]

There are jews that spend 12 hours a day for their entire lives studying Torah, and wouldn't consider themselves masters of it.

It's very intricate.

Or they're a bunch of dumbazzes.

 

[Hister]

So where do the torah, bible and/or koran think god is?

 

[Foxfyre]

Based on the Torah tribe lineage is solely based on the biological father.

Therefore, it's irrelvant what tribe Mary was from.

No one knows who was jesus father, therefore he has no tribe. He would be considered an Israelite, part of the general population.

One of the terms ascribed to Jesus is "Lion of Judah", a descendant of David who was of the tribe of Judah. As for who Jesus's father was, he was 'conceived by the Holy Spirit' and his father was God. He never referred to Joseph when he spoke of 'my father'.

Nevertheless, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, either Mary or Joseph had to descend from David and, if we go with the geneologies in Matthew and Luke, it is likely that they both did. As I said, Luke was not nearly the traditionalist that Matthew and Mark were and I believe had a clearer vision and understanding that Jesus was bringing a whole new thing into the mix. And, it is possible that Luke was not Jewish in which case he wouldn't have a problem with using Mary's geneology instead of Josephs. It is interesting that now Jewish heritage is determined by having a Jewish mother more than having a Jewish father.

As for Jewish tradition, Joseph was the head of Jesus's family as Jesus was growing up. In first century Judaism, if your mother was a remarried widow, her new husband would be legally your father. Male Jews were legally the heirs of both their biological father and step-father.

This is going to be all based on Judaism and the Torah, not on christian beliefs

1) It's rediculous that G-D is jesus' biological father

There is one and only one divine being based on the Torah.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

2) Torah law doesn't change because christians want to change prophesies in order to create their own messiah.

Tribal lineage goes solely based on the biological father. The one person that matters in tribal lineage is the biological father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father is a kohen, he is a kohen because his father was a kohen.

Mary is completely irrelevant to tribal lineage. The only person that matters was jesus actual father. That is unknown. Therefore, jesus had no tribe, he would be considered an Israelite.

I care nothing about Mark and Luke perverting jewish law for their own ends. Jewish law doesn't change based on their whims.

3) Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies based on the Torah. Those prophesies are.

a) Descendent from David

b) World peace

c) All the jews coming to Israel

d) All the jews remaining in Israel

e) The temple in jerusalem being rebuild and standing forever

All these are found in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

Once again, jesus may be your god, your messiah, and whatever else you make him to be.

However, that has nothing to do with the Torah, jewish law, or the G-D that the jews worship.

I at no time have EVER suggested that a Jew will not look at the scriptures through the same eyes as a Christian. But as far as world peace goes, in Christian belief all the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. And if you want to get technical about it, Micah states many people will choose peace, not all people everywhere. And if the Messianic vision is incorrect in the Jewish scriptures, then the Jewish scriptures themselves will be incorrect if you remove the Messiah from the equation wouldn't they?

At any rate, we will bore people silly if we get into the fine components of theology either as the ancient Jew, the modern Jew, the ancient Christian, or the modern Christian understands it. I can accept that you do not accept any of your scriptures as messianic prophecy, even though I believe differently, if you will allow me comfort in what I believe which harms you not in the least.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have read the Bible several times and currently write and teach the history of Christian thought which takes in the Torah, Talmud, all of the Old Testament, all of the New Testament and beyond. And yet I do not consider myself an expert.

Very interesting. If I had more time in my schedule I'd like to take classes like that.

I have also read Qu'ran and the Hadith. Though I am not as familiar with these as with JudeoChristian literature, I can safely say that in my opinion the Qu'ran cannot hold a candle to the Bible as great literature. But it is instructive in getting a glimpse into Islamic thought.

You haven't heard it in Arabic.

Which translation was it? Keep in mind that the Qur'an wasn't really meant to be read as a book; at least not exclusively. It is supposed to be heard as a recitation, committed to memory, and practiced. That's how the companions (RA) of the Prophet (SAWS) learned it, and their community is the example that we strive to emulate.

I'm assuming you didn't read through an entire multi-volume hadith collection... or did you?

I actually have heard some in Arabic. I just didn't understand what I was hearing.

And you are quite right that I probably have not read all of the Hadith. I have read quite a bit that was available to me, however.

But much if not most of what Christians regard as "Old Testament" and much of the "New Testament" began as oral tradition with the stories and teachings recited over and over until committed to indelible memory and passed down from one generation to the next in that way until it became necessary to write it all down. And there are still many who believe the scriptures must be read out loud and heard.

 

[hortysir]

has anyone here read the torah, koran or bible or other?

any thoughts?

Not the Koran, but I like to read other's interpretations.
I tried reading the Mormon Bible but I only got about 1/3 of the way through.

I'm reading a book, right now, entitled "Messiahs.....The visions and prophecies for the second coming"
It defines the different expectations, i.e. Eskimo, Navajo, Christ, etc...

 

[CMike]

One of the terms ascribed to Jesus is "Lion of Judah", a descendant of David who was of the tribe of Judah. As for who Jesus's father was, he was 'conceived by the Holy Spirit' and his father was God. He never referred to Joseph when he spoke of 'my father'.

Nevertheless, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, either Mary or Joseph had to descend from David and, if we go with the geneologies in Matthew and Luke, it is likely that they both did. As I said, Luke was not nearly the traditionalist that Matthew and Mark were and I believe had a clearer vision and understanding that Jesus was bringing a whole new thing into the mix. And, it is possible that Luke was not Jewish in which case he wouldn't have a problem with using Mary's geneology instead of Josephs. It is interesting that now Jewish heritage is determined by having a Jewish mother more than having a Jewish father.

As for Jewish tradition, Joseph was the head of Jesus's family as Jesus was growing up. In first century Judaism, if your mother was a remarried widow, her new husband would be legally your father. Male Jews were legally the heirs of both their biological father and step-father.

This is going to be all based on Judaism and the Torah, not on christian beliefs

1) It's rediculous that G-D is jesus' biological father

There is one and only one divine being based on the Torah.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

2) Torah law doesn't change because christians want to change prophesies in order to create their own messiah.

Tribal lineage goes solely based on the biological father. The one person that matters in tribal lineage is the biological father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father is a kohen, he is a kohen because his father was a kohen.

Mary is completely irrelevant to tribal lineage. The only person that matters was jesus actual father. That is unknown. Therefore, jesus had no tribe, he would be considered an Israelite.

I care nothing about Mark and Luke perverting jewish law for their own ends. Jewish law doesn't change based on their whims.

3) Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies based on the Torah. Those prophesies are.

a) Descendent from David

b) World peace

c) All the jews coming to Israel

d) All the jews remaining in Israel

e) The temple in jerusalem being rebuild and standing forever

All these are found in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

Once again, jesus may be your god, your messiah, and whatever else you make him to be.

However, that has nothing to do with the Torah, jewish law, or the G-D that the jews worship.

I at no time have EVER suggested that a Jew will not look at the scriptures through the same eyes as a Christian. But as far as world peace goes, in Christian belief all the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. And if you want to get technical about it, Micah states many people will choose peace, not all people everywhere. And if the Messianic vision is incorrect in the Jewish scriptures, then the Jewish scriptures themselves will be incorrect if you remove the Messiah from the equation wouldn't they?

At any rate, we will bore people silly if we get into the fine components of theology either as the ancient Jew, the modern Jew, the ancient Christian, or the modern Christian understands it. I can accept that you do not accept any of your scriptures as messianic prophecy, even though I believe differently, if you will allow me comfort in what I believe which harms you not in the least.

Believe in whatever you want.

I just get a bit irked when the Torah is perverted.

Obviously I accep the actual messianic prophesy in the Torah. I listed the criteria, along with the source.

BTW this is the passage in Michah

4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

Where does it limit the people who will practice peace?

 

[Foxfyre]

This is going to be all based on Judaism and the Torah, not on christian beliefs

1) It's rediculous that G-D is jesus' biological father

There is one and only one divine being based on the Torah.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

2) Torah law doesn't change because christians want to change prophesies in order to create their own messiah.

Tribal lineage goes solely based on the biological father. The one person that matters in tribal lineage is the biological father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father is a kohen, he is a kohen because his father was a kohen.

Mary is completely irrelevant to tribal lineage. The only person that matters was jesus actual father. That is unknown. Therefore, jesus had no tribe, he would be considered an Israelite.

I care nothing about Mark and Luke perverting jewish law for their own ends. Jewish law doesn't change based on their whims.

3) Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies based on the Torah. Those prophesies are.

a) Descendent from David

b) World peace

c) All the jews coming to Israel

d) All the jews remaining in Israel

e) The temple in jerusalem being rebuild and standing forever

All these are found in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

Once again, jesus may be your god, your messiah, and whatever else you make him to be.

However, that has nothing to do with the Torah, jewish law, or the G-D that the jews worship.

I at no time have EVER suggested that a Jew will not look at the scriptures through the same eyes as a Christian. But as far as world peace goes, in Christian belief all the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. And if you want to get technical about it, Micah states many people will choose peace, not all people everywhere. And if the Messianic vision is incorrect in the Jewish scriptures, then the Jewish scriptures themselves will be incorrect if you remove the Messiah from the equation wouldn't they?

At any rate, we will bore people silly if we get into the fine components of theology either as the ancient Jew, the modern Jew, the ancient Christian, or the modern Christian understands it. I can accept that you do not accept any of your scriptures as messianic prophecy, even though I believe differently, if you will allow me comfort in what I believe which harms you not in the least.

Believe in whatever you want.

I just get a bit irked when the Torah is perverted.

Obviously I accep the actual messianic prophesy in the Torah. I listed the criteria, along with the source.

BTW this is the passage in Michah

4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

Where does it limit the people who will practice peace?

I don't interpret 'many' as necessarily all, that's all. You consider Micah and Ezekial as Torah? That rather surprises me. But at any rate Cmike, I don't 'fight' with anybody over religion and if my interpretations 'irk' you as 'perversion of the Torah', then I would rather just drop it. I thoroughly enjoy discussing all scripture and theory with folks who also enjoy doing that. But if we can't enjoy it, I would much rather just be friends and discuss something else.

 

[Hister]

So where do the torah, bible and/or koran think god is?

Too tough of a question?

 

[Kalam]

I actually have heard some in Arabic. I just didn't understand what I was hearing.

And you are quite right that I probably have not read all of the Hadith. I have read quite a bit that was available to me, however.

Most haven't. In total, my guess is that the number of pages in the Sunni canon extends into the tens of thousands. A good number are duplicates or slight variations, though, or generally regarded as inaccurate or fabricated.

Do Christians have something equivalent? I guess the NT is sort of like the Christian "Sunnah" of Jesus ('alayhis salaam).

But much if not most of what Christians regard as "Old Testament" and much of the "New Testament" began as oral tradition with the stories and teachings recited over and over until committed to indelible memory and passed down from one generation to the next in that way until it became necessary to write it all down. And there are still many who believe the scriptures must be read out loud and heard.

I'm sort of surprised that Christianity generally doesn't place much emphasis on the importance of learning Koine and Aramaic, and maybe Hebrew. You'd think that one of those would be used as a liturgical language rather than Latin or whatever the worshiper's native tongue happens to be. Although I do like the Gregorian chants, because they remind me of Qur'anic recitation.

 

[Foxfyre]

I actually have heard some in Arabic. I just didn't understand what I was hearing.

And you are quite right that I probably have not read all of the Hadith. I have read quite a bit that was available to me, however.

Most haven't. In total, my guess is that the number of pages in the Sunni canon extends into the tens of thousands. A good number are duplicates or slight variations, though, or generally regarded as inaccurate or fabricated.

Do Christians have something equivalent? I guess the NT is sort of like the Christian "Sunnah" of Jesus ('alayhis salaam).

But much if not most of what Christians regard as "Old Testament" and much of the "New Testament" began as oral tradition with the stories and teachings recited over and over until committed to indelible memory and passed down from one generation to the next in that way until it became necessary to write it all down. And there are still many who believe the scriptures must be read out loud and heard.

I'm sort of surprised that Christianity generally doesn't place much emphasis on the importance of learning Koine and Aramaic, and maybe Hebrew. You'd think that one of those would be used as a liturgical language rather than Latin or whatever the worshiper's native tongue happens to be. Although I do like the Gregorian chants, because they remind me of Qur'anic recitation.

Dedicated Christian scholars do learn Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew as part of the process of dedicated Bible Study. I have had some of all three, but not enough to achieve fluency. Therefore I depend on translations from sources I implicitly trust.

As for Christianity having anything comparable to the Hadith, not really, but there are enormous huge libraries containing volumes of Christian writings dating from the First Century on, none of which made it into the New Testament. Since Christians finally came to their senses and stopped trying to physically force orthodoxy on the people, there has been freedom to study and discern and achieve new understandings that have resulted in wide differences in interpretation. Ultimately, for many Christians the final authority is God himself who writes His truths upon our hearts.

As you cite the immense proportions of the Hadith, so I think no one person could ever learn all that there is to know of Christian thought in a single lifetime.