Eightball said:
Never thought differently than what you just said.
Just tried/attempted a little humor.
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Guess you don't remember Bill Cosby's comedy LP/Album, "Why Is There Air?".
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I was just sitting back and looking at all the bantering, and debating and just tried to take-pause, and assimilate where it was going......and came up with the quote......ala Bill Cosby.
No disrespect intended to anyone......involved in this.
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Jesus however did say, as well as his disciples that God's truth that He claimed to possess and embody was only understood Spiritually, and that basically secular man metaphorically had "scales"(fish scales/cataracts) upon his eyes of understanding. It was only after "true" conversion(being Born Again from above) that a man/woman would start to understand(The scales/cataracts would fall off.), and agree/abide with these truths.
Jesus did not teach that there was a respected, in-between state of spirituality, where man could be a little secular and a little bit believer. In fact he said that flesh and Spirit would never agree, nor live comfortably in the human species. Once a person became converted, the "", or Holy Spirit would come to reside in that human, and the internalizing of the war of Spirit and Flesh would happen. Initially, conversion would bring bliss, but gradually the old worldly programming of the mind that still was filled with secular, "everything" would come to "logger-heads" with the Spirit of Christ that now resided in the soul of the converted.
Paul's famous Roman's 7 rendition where he said, "The things I desire to do, I don't, and things I shouldn't do, I do. Oh, wretched man that I am! .......". Paul wasn't claiming to be a Pagan trying to be a Christian, but proclaiming the actually war of his mind to throw away the old ways, of his unconverted life. The "Paraclete" withing at Paul's conversion was calling, and beckoning him/Paul to a total 180 degree change in thoughts........no longer to see himself as the center of all reality, but to a God-centered vision, that was actually the true reality of his state of being after conversion.
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It is indeed the Frank Sinatra disease or malady of man that God incarnated His Son and allowed Him to give His life for. "I Did It My Way", is the bane of mankind, and is also a defining philosophy of unconverted man's spiritual state.
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What does it mean to refer to Jesus as "Lord". Is it a knight's degree bestowed, that means absolutely nothing or just some nobility, tag, or does it mean that He/Jesus is entitled to being submitted-to, by His creation?
No problem with the humor. Sorry I didn't get the reference
First let me say that I found your post very interesting and have, since reading it, given a great deal of thought to my response. Let me say in advance that I hope you won't see anything I say as disrespectful. I don't share your beliefs, as I have my own, but I have great respect for your belief and your certainty.
I think the universe is a very complex place. Relgion is a way of making its complexity understandable to people. But I think that true understanding of the nature of the Supreme Being is beyond our ken. It's kind of like trying to describe the color red to someone who's never had vision. We see only the manifestation of the divine which we can comprehend. Personally, I like the idea of a universe so great that it is beyond our imaginings.
You raised one of my pet issues, though, when you mentioned the words paraclete and rabbi. And I think that much of what Jesus said may be construed in a particular way because of linguistics and simple language. Jesus would have been called Rabbi, which is "teacher" in Hebrew. It isn't used interchangeably with word "Lord". That would, most likely, have been a title bestowed upon him by his Roman followers who would have used it as a title of respect. Also, since Jesus' teachings were spoken in Aramaic, repeated translation and re-translation over the centuries might have blurred some of the meanings.
I found something interesting (to me, anyway) about the word Paraclete.
Paraclete
For the school of Peter Abelard, see Oratory of the Paraclete.
Paraclete comes from the Greek word παράκλητος meaning "one who consoles" or "one who intercedes on our behalf", which first appears in the Gospel of John (16:7). Christian theology afterwards identified Paraclete with the Holy Spirit. The word appears only a few times in Greek New Testament manuscripts and using the Roman alphabet is rendered "parakletos".
Christ is quoted in the New Testament using this word; in John 14:26 the greek word parakletos is used as an alternative term for "Holy Spirit". Yet in I John 2:1 "parakletos" is used again this time in reference to Christ.
Paraclete is important to Christians because it sheds much light on the nature of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit and brings into question the concept of the Trinity, often a source of great confusion. The Holy Spirit, or Paraclete, is the third person of the Holy Trinity. The Paraclete is also called the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter and the Supporter as it is the Paraclete who comes alongside the Christian to provide guidance, consolation and support throughout lifeÂ’s journey.
Montanus (2nd Century?) claimed to be the promised paraclete of John 14:16.
Islam (7th Century) claims Muhammad is the Paraclete promised by Jesus.
Some Christians believe that Jesus was himself the second paraclete and returned after his death to indwell his followers as a spirit[citation needed]. He himself indicates that the second Paraclete would be "another" so this implies not himself. Since the Paraclete is called the Spirit of Truth it may be one of the seven angels (spirits) that stand before the Throne of God. The word itself implies an aggressive lawyer who defends the saints and prosecutes the world system.
This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer)
So, language, interpretation, has a great deal to do with how we see the Bible. I found the use of the word "paraclete" in reference to Mohammed a particularly interesting one.
My own favorite example of that is when Moses heard the words from the Burning Bush... They've been translated fairly consistently as "I am that I am". Yet Moses would have heard the words in Hebrew and there is no present tense first person conjugation of the Hebrew words "to be". Instead, in Hebrew it would actually have been "I will be what I will be". Now, even that small phrase is open to interpretation. And people have debated their meaning for centuries.
Even our concepts of "heaven" or "nirvana" or whatever one wishes to call it change depending on the language choices we make and I've been told that translation from one language to another is often more an art than a science. Christians see heaven in one particular way. Buddhists see it as something quite different, though I don't think those views are inconsistent, but rather it's the same as looking at a house from two different sides.... you will be looking at the same object but not see the same thing. On that subject, as well, Kabbalah defines "heaven" as the Ein Sof, which, literally, translates to Nothingness. How is nothing "heaven"? Well, I've seen that question answered fairly simply as "Well, there's "nothing" and then there's "NOTHING". I think that seems a lot like the Buddhist concepts. Kabbalah also says that what we see on earth is only the tip of the iceberg and it's filtered through about 10 levels because we could not comprehend anything more.
I laughed when I read what you said about "Frank Sinatra Disease". I believe that Man has free will. There is the divine, but with regard to our earthly acts, we are free to make choices. This, obviously conflicts with the concept of all things being governed from above. But, like everything else, I think the answers are complex and ultimately we won't find it all out until we get to the end of our journeys.
I hope my response did some justice to your thoughtful post and I hope nothing I wrote could be construed as being denigrating in any way. I actually love discussing these issues and find them fascinating.
