religion Vs. arrogance

[dmp]

No, girlfriend, I said that "faith in a particular" religion has been used to hurt people. Though I agree it is how PEOPLE act in regard to faith that was the problem.

See bro - you want it both ways.

 

[jillian]

See bro - you want it both ways.

How so?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

And I think, essentially, that comes from an unswerving belief that one's own belief system is divinely handed down and inerrant.

Of course, criticizing faith itself instead of the actual doctrines of various religions is the ONLY way to maintain one's moral relativistic outlook and paint christians as being the same as jihadis.

 

[jillian]

Of course, criticizing faith itself instead of the actual doctrines of various religions is the ONLY way to maintain one's moral relativistic outlook and paint christians as being the same as jihadis.

Again, I don't criticize anyone's faith. I have faith myself. All I criticize is any group who thinks it can and should impose its beliefs on others. And the only manner in which I made any comparison is in the observation that they believe in the inerrant nature of their beliefs as vehemently as certain groups of Christians. Not criticizing either....just pointing out that is the case and they think they're as right as you do. Do you think they don't think their beliefs are correct? If they didn't, the jihadis wouldn't be willing to die for them.

 

[Eightball]

Again, I don't criticize anyone's faith. I have faith myself. All I criticize is any group who thinks it can and should impose its beliefs on others. And the only manner in which I made any comparison is in the observation that they believe in the inerrant nature of their beliefs as vehemently as certain groups of Christians. Not criticizing either....just pointing out that is the case and they think they're as right as you do. Do you think they don't think their beliefs are correct? If they didn't, the jihadis wouldn't be willing to die for them.

I agree that "imposing" one's belief system onto another is where a line should be drawn.

Is going door to door and sharing a belief system, or handing out leaflets, or inviting someone to a church service really a serious offense?

How about tell a person that they will go to Hell if they don't believe in Jesus as their Saviour.

The worst I can see here is that this kind of activity will cause some possible irritation or bother to someone who isn't interested in their eternal destiny, but otherwise it's a pretty non-physical/non-threatening activity.

People have done some horrendous things in the name of Jesus/Christianity in the past, but their activities didn't agree one bit with Jesus' teachings.

Now, Islam on the other hand is actually following Mohammed's authored scripture of the Koran very succinctly. There is no "grace" in Islam. There is no forgiveness in Islam.

Did you know that Islam states 99 attributes for their god/Allah. In fact some Islamic tribes carry necklaces with 99 beads. Some African tribes say that there are actually 100 attributes of Allah, but number 100 is a secret, and only the camel knows number 100.

Guess what major attribute of Allah is missing, but is the benchmark of the Christian bible? LOVE! Love is missing in the Islamic attributes of Allah. Yes, Love.

Now, maybe it is more understandable, why human life is so worthless to many of these fanatics. Without love, in system of faith, where's the built-in conscience of mind? What is a soul to another soul? We're born and we die. Glory be to Allah. It is a belief system built upon fear of Allah, and legalistic works to attain "atta boys" before your Mullah, and Allah. Allah is a distant removed God, that only points fingers of disgust, and retribution.

It isn't a bit surprising that torturous laws rule in the Islamic world. There is no "grace" or unmeritted favor given out by Allah. Allah is hard and exacting on his followers. He only offers reprieve from worldly hardship and suffering with earthly-type sexual cookies for the most devoted in their heaven. Their women are not cherished, but owned, subsidized, and enslaved.

Yeah, Christianity gets bad raps a lot, and much is unjustified.

Just think if Christians in the U.S. were killing their wives for adultry, or disowning there children for leaving their faith, or just plain forcing death-or-believe dictums on all non-Christian Americans? Maybe the average American agnostic/atheist would finally see that there is a difference between belief systems, and not ignorantly generalize.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Again, I don't criticize anyone's faith. I have faith myself. All I criticize is any group who thinks it can and should impose its beliefs on others. And the only manner in which I made any comparison is in the observation that they believe in the inerrant nature of their beliefs as vehemently as certain groups of Christians.

But the strength of faith is NOT the issue that makes either of them unacceptable. We have freedom of thought and speech. The difference is MODES of attempted persuasion. Evangelical chrsitians TELLING YOU (with words) you're going to hell is in NO WAY comparable to beheading. When you make "claims of exclusivity" the issue, you ignore the important discussion of actual doctrine and behavior.

 

[theim]

life isn't about serving "god", it's for serving mankind.

Uncle Joe Stalin couldn't have said it better.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I believe people follow Christianity in the main
1) Because they were born into it
2) Or have suffered some huge upheaval in their life that only some other worldly experience can satiate their need to have an answer because common sense/logic cannot due to it being just that; common sense and logic.

That's pretty much why anyone becomes an adherent of any religion.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Again, I don't criticize anyone's faith. I have faith myself. <font color=red>All I criticize is any group who thinks it can and should impose its beliefs on others.</font> And the only manner in which I made any comparison is in the observation that they believe in the inerrant nature of their beliefs as vehemently as certain groups of Christians. Not criticizing either....just pointing out that is the case and they think they're as right as you do. Do you think they don't think their beliefs are correct? If they didn't, the jihadis wouldn't be willing to die for them.

If God does not compell obedience, it is not man's place to do so.

 

[Eightball]

If God does not compell obedience, it is not man's place to do so.

Please state clearly in this great country(U.S.A.) of ours, where Christianity is imposed on American citizens.

And when I say imposed........I mean "forced", as any other defintition doesn't add up to a viable argument.

As far as I know, invocations at graduations, football games, and other public ceremonies are considered "out".

Must make atheists orgasmic........

 

[manu1959]

i don't know who or what god is, but if such a person or thing exsist, it obviously doesn't want us to know anything about it, otherwise we wouldn't be playing a guessing game. religion is dangerous to me, religious people often are convinced they know it all, yet have no answers, proof or can't solve anything. who's to say your god is real more than someone elses?
:whip3:

non-religious people often are convinced they know it all, yet have no answers, proof or can't solve anything. who's to say your opinion is any more real more than a religious persons?

 

[manu1959]

If God does not compell obedience, it is not man's place to do so.

i agree...man should abolish all laws that compell obedience

 

[Bullypulpit]

i agree...man should abolish all laws that compell obedience

Now you're being obtuse. The reference was to religion as you bloody well know it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Please state clearly in this great country(U.S.A.) of ours, where Christianity is imposed on American citizens.

We're not there...yet. Hopefully, we never will be.

 

[Eightball]

We're not there...yet. Hopefully, we never will be.

We're not there yet.......I almost sense a hopefulness in your answer........maybe salivating over GWB's demise.

Hey, maybe if these Christians will just pull some terrorist thing, then the Libs will get back Congress and the White House......Oops.....better not crack a smile......I need to look very serious and concerned about the direction the violent, religious right is going.
(Boy Oh Boy......GWB's days are numbered......com'on Bible thumpers........due something really bad .........please blow up something.........so I don't look like a biggot.)

.........

I'm telling you folks.......I still remember how all the libs were putting on their party hats when it looked like Kerry was going to beat GWB.........Even the unbiased...news commentators.....we're barely able to keep from jumping on their desks with party hats and blowing horns......

The next day.......they either wanted to leave for Canada or get Psychiatric help for their depression.
......

Oh.....in their piousness, they say......oh, we wouldn't want our country to become the Third Reich.........I sure hope those bible Christians don't get stronger in their influence on our secular government........and culture.......oooh.....I'm afraid......Yeah......right!

They are just waiting to throw on their party hats when the first nut job claiming Jesus's direction, kills a bunch of innocent Americans........Oh, they'll look sad.....and they'll hold their tongue......and be all grieved.....but deep down they're thinking..........whoopee.......we got the Two Houses of the Fed........back.......guaranteed.......

It's all control and influence with them.......it has nothing to do with ethics and morals.........it's just........wanting to be in control............
........
Whew! ..........I'm tired.

 

[Bullypulpit]

We're not there yet.......I almost sense a hopefulness in your answer........maybe salivating over GWB's demise.

Hey, maybe if these Christians will just pull some terrorist thing, then the Libs will get back Congress and the White House......Oops.....better not crack a smile......I need to look very serious and concerned about the direction the violent, religious right is going.
(Boy Oh Boy......GWB's days are numbered......com'on Bible thumpers........due something really bad .........please blow up something.........so I don't look like a biggot.)

.........

I'm telling you folks.......I still remember how all the libs were putting on their party hats when it looked like Kerry was going to beat GWB.........Even the unbiased...news commentators.....we're barely able to keep from jumping on their desks with party hats and blowing horns......

The next day.......they either wanted to leave for Canada or get Psychiatric help for their depression.
......

Oh.....in their piousness, they say......oh, we wouldn't want our country to become the Third Reich.........I sure hope those bible Christians don't get stronger in their influence on our secular government........and culture.......oooh.....I'm afraid......Yeah......right!

They are just waiting to throw on their party hats when the first nut job claiming Jesus's direction, kills a bunch of innocent Americans........Oh, they'll look sad.....and they'll hold their tongue......and be all grieved.....but deep down they're thinking..........whoopee.......we got the Two Houses of the Fed........back.......guaranteed.......

It's all control and influence with them.......it has nothing to do with ethics and morals.........it's just........wanting to be in control............
........
Whew! ..........I'm tired.

And from the looks of your screed, you probably sprained something.

 

[Annie]

And from the looks of your screed, you probably sprained something.

He was over the top, then again, this was moreso. Bully, beneath you. Seriously

 

[Avatar4321]

i don't know who or what god is, but if such a person or thing exsist, it obviously doesn't want us to know anything about it, otherwise we wouldn't be playing a guessing game. religion is dangerous to me, religious people often are convinced they know it all, yet have no answers, proof or can't solve anything. who's to say your god is real more than someone elses?
:whip3:

Well I do know who God is and HE does want us to know about Him.

The problem is most people dont want to talk to Him to learn from Him, they would rather walk after their own ways. He isnt going to force you to get to know Him.

 

[jillian]

I agree that "imposing" one's belief system onto another is where a line should be drawn.

OK...we agree there.

Is going door to door and sharing a belief system, or handing out leaflets, or inviting someone to a church service really a serious offense?

Not even an offense...annoying to others, perhaps, but certainly their right.

How about tell a person that they will go to Hell if they don't believe in Jesus as their Saviour.

Arrogant, perhaps, and offensive, certainly, but not illegal either.

The worst I can see here is that this kind of activity will cause some possible irritation or bother to someone who isn't interested in their eternal destiny, but otherwise it's a pretty non-physical/non-threatening activity.

This is where you start to go off track. Simply because someone believes differently doesn't mean they don't give thought to their "eternal destiny" as you put it. It just means that they don't believe what you do, although they may believe as fervently in their own dogma. Do you think the Dalai Lama is unconcerned about his eternal destiny? Or the Chasidic Rabbis? Aren't they devout?

People have done some horrendous things in the name of Jesus/Christianity in the past, but their activities didn't agree one bit with Jesus' teachings.

I agree. But I agree that other religions have done horrific things in the name of faith as well.

Now, Islam on the other hand is actually following Mohammed's authored scripture of the Koran very succinctly. There is no "grace" in Islam. There is no forgiveness in Islam.

That wasn't my reading of the Koran. Perhaps you can point me to those sections that say such a thing. Admittedly, it has been more than a few years since I read it.

Did you know that Islam states 99 attributes for their god/Allah. In fact some Islamic tribes carry necklaces with 99 beads. Some African tribes say that there are actually 100 attributes of Allah, but number 100 is a secret, and only the camel knows number 100.

I seem to recall something to that effect.

Guess what major attribute of Allah is missing, but is the benchmark of the Christian bible? LOVE! Love is missing in the Islamic attributes of Allah. Yes, Love.

Again...you may be correct. But I don't recall that. I think there are many harsh things in the Koran which, in the hands of self-interested Imam's who seek power and not only the religious teaching of their people, can be twisted and distorted.

Now, maybe it is more understandable, why human life is so worthless to many of these fanatics. Without love, in system of faith, where's the built-in conscience of mind? What is a soul to another soul? We're born and we die. Glory be to Allah. It is a belief system built upon fear of Allah, and legalistic works to attain "atta boys" before your Mullah, and Allah. Allah is a distant removed God, that only points fingers of disgust, and retribution.

I think the Muslims I know would be very surprised to hear this. The Deity in Judaism speaks much of divine judgment. But there is also a balance to be found in love and compassion. Islam is similar in that regard. Again, it's distorted by self-serving Imam's who prey on ignorance.

It isn't a bit surprising that torturous laws rule in the Islamic world. There is no "grace" or unmeritted favor given out by Allah. Allah is hard and exacting on his followers. He only offers reprieve from worldly hardship and suffering with earthly-type sexual cookies for the most devoted in their heaven. Their women are not cherished, but owned, subsidized, and enslaved.

Yeah, Christianity gets bad raps a lot, and much is unjustified.

Just think if Christians in the U.S. were killing their wives for adultry, or disowning there children for leaving their faith, or just plain forcing death-or-believe dictums on all non-Christian Americans? Maybe the average American agnostic/atheist would finally see that there is a difference between belief systems, and not ignorantly generalize.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not quite certain what that has to do with the inappropriateness of anyone's dogma being enacted into law and imposed on others, regardless of whether the belief system is one which you would consider positive or negative. What you call my "ignorantly generaliz[ing]" is simply my awareness that their beliefs are as dearly held as yours. Not understanding that is ignoring a fact of great importance.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Well I do know who God is and HE does want us to know about Him.

The problem is most people dont want to talk to Him to learn from Him, they would rather walk after their own ways. He isnt going to force you to get to know Him.

How do you know?

Secondly, if God isn't going to compell obedience to his will, what business is it of man to attempt to do so?