Religion/ A crutch created by man

[Derideo_Te]

Derideo uses faith and religion interchangeably.

That is the crux of argument with anti-christians...they are completely ignorant. They have no idea what it is they're talking about; they can't bother to learn.

As usual KG is "always wrong".

 

[Jroc]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

Well... yes and no.

I think it would be a little fallacious and cowardly for us to put this ENTIRE mess at the feet of man. God (obviously) did create within us the capability of perpetrating evil acts. I mean, I can hand someone a gun under the most honest and upright intentions, and they can still go kill someone... yes, they did the deed and should be punished accordingly. But I did at least enable the person to do it. I shouldn't be held responsible directly, but, I do have at least a smidgeon of responsibility.

Intent is the key..Evil intentions are your choice. if you had no such intentions then the act would not be an evil act

 

[HUGGY]

Take this to the deepest level. Your belief system in its most raw form.

Now what do you CARE about the survival of humanity? Seriously. There is nothing beyond this life, and no purpose for this life to begin with. Acts of heroism such as you describe--though thought-provoking and awe-inspiring--mean absolutely nothing and further no meaningful cause.

If you say so... You are welcome to your view of the world. I have mine. I could easily say that religion fits nicely into your last statement. I don't think we need an excuse to be good especially when the excuse is based on nonsense. The fact that I won't be here to witness the future after I'm gone does not matter.

I don't know why you felt encouraged to twist my words. I was describing the inward thoughts of a Nihilist. Nihilism is the only logical end-all conclusion of the Atheist. If you believe there is meaningfulness and purpose to life, then this existence must be more than random to you. And if it's anything more than random, it has purpose, and therefore was created. If you believe it has purpose and was created, then voila, you are not an Atheist, but instead an Agnostic.

Voila! You are a moron. I am far from being a Nihilist. You claim purpose is created..by god I suppose. Nonsense. Man created god ... therefore man created purpose.

I'll take the purpose as a goal to a destination but without god or Jeebus. I won't polute my purpose with your idiotic myths and sky fairies.

PS.. you don't have authority to claim anything in regards to my purpose.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Now waiting to see if Avg-Joe and Derideo_Te will get onto Old Rocks for being 'presumptious'. (You know, holding everybody to the same standard and all.)

Must be missing something here, Foxy. Old Rocks made it perfectly clear that there is a distinct difference between those who live their lives in accordance with the teachings in the bible and those who are CINOs (Christians In Name Only) who are doing it purely for the benefit of the "Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free" card that it offers to anyone with a pulse irrespective of what kind of person they are.

Well first he was wrong about Christ giving only one commandment. And second he drew a huge presumption about those who don't practice Chrsitianity as HE deems they are supppsed to practice Christianity. But yes, there is a huge double standard at play here. KG is not allowed to draw any conclusions about non believers--and admittedly she did cast a wide net there though I still don't think that was her intent. But you have no problem with Old Rocks casting just as wide a net to accuse Christians. And I think that WAS his intent.

By using the phrase "As for the other kind of Christian" Old Rocks was clearly making a distinction as opposed to just "casting a wide net", Foxy. Given that he made that clear differentiation I don't see any "double standard" at play.

 

[koshergrl]

That's because you're ignorant, and stupid besides.

"The other kind" is not a distinction. It's a vague statement that could be referring to anything under the sun.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy, it is people like you who use religion as a tool to do what it does best. Pope Francis is another. More power to those like you who use religion for that purpose.

Thanks, but you see I don't think I really do use religion at all. Like KG said, faith and religion are not the same thing. Faith can incorporate religious practices and vice versa but they are different things.

Tomorrow I will deliver the teaching/message/sermon or whatever anybody wants to call it at the Albuquerque Rehab Center where my church provides spiritual support day in, day out, week in, week out. The people who attend are affiliated with many different Christian denominations and traditions, some with no church affiliations and perhaps no faith at all. There are a couple of Jewish residents and when they are in attendance, I am prepared to incorporate something into the service that would be familiar to them. We sing familiar hymns, pray familiar prayers, use at least parts of liturgy familiar to most of them.

The ritual itself is religious in nature. But it is simply a vehicle through which we do ministry, provide encouragement, hope, comfort, peace for some of God's most helpless people. We do what is comfortable and familiar for them, not because we see any intrinsic value in the ritual itself. With another group that didn't need or want that, I might skip all the liturgy entirely and go straight to the teaching.

Religion is a combination of doctrine, dogma, liturgy, faith, and belief. There is no more harm in doing those things than there is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the National Anthem or the school song or practicing any of the routines we like to do at ballgames or Kentucky Derbys or any other slices of Americana or human life in general. It all makes us feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness. At different times it is fun, entertaining, reassuring, comforting. All contribute to a sense of well being.

I can exercise my faith in relgious exercises. Jesus sometimes did that too. But I see faith as something that can be separated from religion. And if we believe the accounts of Jesus' interaction with the people, so did he.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer, Foxy. What religion does best is everything you just described yourself as doing for others of various religions. However faith is something that is personal and belongs entirely to an individual. You can "share your faith" but no one else can experience your personal faith. On the other hand religion is geared towards sharing. It is a communal experience where people gather to "feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness". That is the aspect that you just clarified. Thank you.

Okay, I'll back up and regroup here.

I took Old Rocks' comment that we were discussing as judgmental in the way most anti-Christian people are judgmental. He presumed to tell the member what a Christian must be and, to use his words, all others are disrespected and/or scum. I allow for people of other faiths to believe differently than I do though I will argue when I think they get it wrong. I allow for other Christians to believe differently than I do though I will argue when I think they get it wrong. I thought Old Rocks was attacking the person or Christians themselves rather than their point of view, and I took exception to that. But I will allow for the possibility of that not being his intent.

Nor do I think you and I are entirely on the same page here, but I may be projecting on you some of my experience with other members here who insist that because I believe in ANYTHING supernatural, I am stupid, delusional, brainwashed, dishonest, or whatever unattractice label somebody wishes to put on it. I simply am unable to see that as anything other than unkind, unreasonable, and bad intentions.

 

[Agent.Tom]

Voila! You are a moron. I am far from being a Nihilist. You claim purpose is created..by god I suppose. Nonsense. Man created god ... therefore man created purpose.

I'm confused. You're not a Nihilist, and yet the only purpose you can imagine for life, is manmade? Seems contradictory to me.

If you are an Atheist who sees no real purpose to life, then you are a Nihilist. You say you are "far from being a Nihilist." If so, then you are no Atheist. And that's a good thing, by the way.

I'll take the purpose as a goal to a destination but without god or Jeebus.

What destination? And wait, now you are saying you believe we have a purpose?

I won't polute my purpose with your idiotic myths and sky fairies.

So what is your purpose, then?

PS.. you don't have authority to claim anything in regards to my purpose.

I never claimed such authority, but, thanks for putting me in my place anyway. I am thoroughly emasculated now.

 

[Avatar4321]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

I humbly disagree. Evil is the absense of Good. Neither Good nor Evil could exist without the other. There needs to be opposition in all things.

God is by definition Good. God is also Eternal/Immortal. Since God has always existed, Good has always existed. If Good has always existed, then Evil must likewise have always existed.

Neither good nor evil were created. They've always existed.

 

[Jroc]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

I humbly disagree. Evil is the absense of Good. Neither Good nor Evil could exist without the other. There needs to be opposition in all things.

God is by definition Good. God is also Eternal/Immortal. Since God has always existed, Good has always existed. If Good has always existed, then Evil must likewise have always existed.

Neither good nor evil were created. They've always existed.

G-d is all good, evil is here as a choice, one can choose there own path that's why we were given free will. Those who choose the wrong path when they leave this world that's it for them, the rest of us will live on

 

[Derideo_Te]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

I humbly disagree. Evil is the absense of Good. Neither Good nor Evil could exist without the other. There needs to be opposition in all things.

Binary black versus white simplistic nonsense. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. The opposite of good is not evil, it is bad. Something can be bad without being evil.

God is by definition Good. God is also Eternal/Immortal. Since God has always existed, Good has always existed. If Good has always existed, then Evil must likewise have always existed.

By that definition it is impossible to "defeat evil" because it must "always" exist as a counterbalance to "good". What is the point of worshiping your God if he cannot eliminate evil?

Neither good nor evil were created. They've always existed.

So now you are admitting that your "creator" did NOT create the entire universe and everything in it?

 

[Derideo_Te]

That's because you're ignorant, and stupid besides.

"The other kind" is not a distinction. It's a vague statement that could be referring to anything under the sun.

Old Rocks specifically referred to the "other kind of Christian". At least you are always consistently wrong.

 

[Votto]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

The ultimate fear, death, requires the ultimate crutch.

Death is scary... I've met people who need the hope they have in Jesus to remain stable.

What about those who have given their lives for their faith? This includes a long list of people from the disciples of Jesus who were all martyred except one to Christians being thrown to the lions in Rome to the poor souls in Egypt today. You could say that their crutch killed them or you could say that they grew a bigger sac than you whimpy boy.

 

[Votto]

Oh look, another religion bashing troll thread, in the religion forum.

That's great. You loons are really elevating the discussion with this stupid crap.

It's neither bashing nor trolling. It's an opinion. Don't be so close minded

I'm not close minded. But there are about 1500 threads in this forum of the same crap...personal opinions about why religion is just a rumor of a supreme being made up by a couple of guys who for some reason wanted to be killed in gruesome ways....and how everybody who believes is just not quite as smart as the ones who don't....

It's juvenile, repetitive, and old. You guys have taken over the religion forum with your shallow opinion that religion sucks. Okay, we get it. You don't believe in God. Whoopie. So if you don't believe, why are you compelled to say so..over, and over, and over, and over? And do you really think you're smarter than every single Christian that has ever walked the planet?

Really?????

They treat us like third graders and then spend all their time poking fun at us.

Pathetic.

 

[dblack]

Voila! You are a moron. I am far from being a Nihilist. You claim purpose is created..by god I suppose. Nonsense. Man created god ... therefore man created purpose.

I'm confused. You're not a Nihilist, and yet the only purpose you can imagine for life, is manmade? Seems contradictory to me.

If you are an Atheist who sees no real purpose to life, then you are a Nihilist. You say you are "far from being a Nihilist." If so, then you are no Atheist.

Yes, you are confused. Atheism isn't the same thing as nihilism. That's why they are different words.

Your confusion can be cured, however. Look up the definitions.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Thanks, but you see I don't think I really do use religion at all. Like KG said, faith and religion are not the same thing. Faith can incorporate religious practices and vice versa but they are different things.

Tomorrow I will deliver the teaching/message/sermon or whatever anybody wants to call it at the Albuquerque Rehab Center where my church provides spiritual support day in, day out, week in, week out. The people who attend are affiliated with many different Christian denominations and traditions, some with no church affiliations and perhaps no faith at all. There are a couple of Jewish residents and when they are in attendance, I am prepared to incorporate something into the service that would be familiar to them. We sing familiar hymns, pray familiar prayers, use at least parts of liturgy familiar to most of them.

The ritual itself is religious in nature. But it is simply a vehicle through which we do ministry, provide encouragement, hope, comfort, peace for some of God's most helpless people. We do what is comfortable and familiar for them, not because we see any intrinsic value in the ritual itself. With another group that didn't need or want that, I might skip all the liturgy entirely and go straight to the teaching.

Religion is a combination of doctrine, dogma, liturgy, faith, and belief. There is no more harm in doing those things than there is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the National Anthem or the school song or practicing any of the routines we like to do at ballgames or Kentucky Derbys or any other slices of Americana or human life in general. It all makes us feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness. At different times it is fun, entertaining, reassuring, comforting. All contribute to a sense of well being.

I can exercise my faith in relgious exercises. Jesus sometimes did that too. But I see faith as something that can be separated from religion. And if we believe the accounts of Jesus' interaction with the people, so did he.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer, Foxy. What religion does best is everything you just described yourself as doing for others of various religions. However faith is something that is personal and belongs entirely to an individual. You can "share your faith" but no one else can experience your personal faith. On the other hand religion is geared towards sharing. It is a communal experience where people gather to "feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness". That is the aspect that you just clarified. Thank you.

Okay, I'll back up and regroup here.

I took Old Rocks' comment that we were discussing as judgmental in the way most anti-Christian people are judgmental. He presumed to tell the member what a Christian must be and, to use his words, all others are disrespected and/or scum. I allow for people of other faiths to believe differently than I do though I will argue when I think they get it wrong. I allow for other Christians to believe differently than I do though I will argue when I think they get it wrong. I thought Old Rocks was attacking the person or Christians themselves rather than their point of view, and I took exception to that. But I will allow for the possibility of that not being his intent.

Nor do I think you and I are entirely on the same page here, but I may be projecting on you some of my experience with other members here who insist that because I believe in ANYTHING supernatural, I am stupid, delusional, brainwashed, dishonest, or whatever unattractice label somebody wishes to put on it. I simply am unable to see that as anything other than unkind, unreasonable, and bad intentions.

Thanks for the regroup, Foxy. Hopefully you know by now that denigrating someone because of what they believe is not something that I see as being productive or conducive to dialog and progress towards reaching a consensus. You are right that it does happen and you are well within your rights to call it out and, when it is appropriate, you will have my backing.

In this instance Old Rocks was denigrating the "other kind of Christian" but he was not denigrating ALL Christians. While all Christians might share their belief they don't all BEHAVE in the same manner. For example it would be insulting to group someone like you in with the Westboro Baptists. You might both be Christians but what they practice is NOT what Jesus taught. You, on the other hand, reach out to help the less fortunate and to share love. This is the distinction that I saw Old Rocks was making in his post.

 

[Avatar4321]

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

I humbly disagree. Evil is the absense of Good. Neither Good nor Evil could exist without the other. There needs to be opposition in all things.

Binary black versus white simplistic nonsense. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. The opposite of good is not evil, it is bad. Something can be bad without being evil.

God is by definition Good. God is also Eternal/Immortal. Since God has always existed, Good has always existed. If Good has always existed, then Evil must likewise have always existed.

By that definition it is impossible to "defeat evil" because it must "always" exist as a counterbalance to "good". What is the point of worshiping your God if he cannot eliminate evil?

Neither good nor evil were created. They've always existed.

So now you are admitting that your "creator" did NOT create the entire universe and everything in it?

If you understood creation, you wouldn't be confused so easily.

 

[Avatar4321]

Voila! You are a moron. I am far from being a Nihilist. You claim purpose is created..by god I suppose. Nonsense. Man created god ... therefore man created purpose.

I'm confused. You're not a Nihilist, and yet the only purpose you can imagine for life, is manmade? Seems contradictory to me.

If you are an Atheist who sees no real purpose to life, then you are a Nihilist. You say you are "far from being a Nihilist." If so, then you are no Atheist.

Yes, you are confused. Atheism isn't the same thing as nihilism. That's why they are different words.

Your confusion can be cured, however. Look up the definitions.

He never claimed they were the same definition. In fact, he specifically pointed out what he saw as the differences.

Are you sure he is the one who is confused?

 

[dblack]

I'm confused. You're not a Nihilist, and yet the only purpose you can imagine for life, is manmade? Seems contradictory to me.

If you are an Atheist who sees no real purpose to life, then you are a Nihilist. You say you are "far from being a Nihilist." If so, then you are no Atheist.

Yes, you are confused. Atheism isn't the same thing as nihilism. That's why they are different words.

Your confusion can be cured, however. Look up the definitions.

He never claimed they were the same definition. In fact, he specifically pointed out what he saw as the differences.

Are you sure he is the one who is confused?

He's making the assumption that an atheist sees 'no real purpose to life'. He's done the same throughout.

 

[peach174]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

So how did Mankind know about end times?

How did man know that Christianity would be spread though out the whole world?
How did man know that Israel would become a Nation again and that they would come to Israel from all over the world?
How did mankind know that global warming would happen 2,000 years ago?
How did man know that people worldwide would be fighting each other and that wars and rumor of wars would be happing 2,000 years ago?
How did man 2,000 years ago, know that the price of food would go up?
How did man know that 2,000 years ago, that good would be called evil and that evil would be called good?
How did man know that there would be more and more earthquakes and volcanoes happening and that the weather would become stronger and stronger 2,000 years into the future?
How did man know that hail would become bigger and bigger and will continue to become bigger? It's the size of grapefruits now and will continue to become bigger. Hail will become so big that it will weigh about 57 lbs in the future.
How did man know that the Oceans and Rivers would become so polluted?
All of this was told by God to one man who wrote it all down.
Mankind could never know this 2,000 years ago, let alone have it in the exact sequence of these events.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I humbly disagree. Evil is the absense of Good. Neither Good nor Evil could exist without the other. There needs to be opposition in all things.

Binary black versus white simplistic nonsense. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. The opposite of good is not evil, it is bad. Something can be bad without being evil.

By that definition it is impossible to "defeat evil" because it must "always" exist as a counterbalance to "good". What is the point of worshiping your God if he cannot eliminate evil?

Neither good nor evil were created. They've always existed.

So now you are admitting that your "creator" did NOT create the entire universe and everything in it?

If you understood creation, you wouldn't be confused so easily.

Why do you consistently deflect difficult questions you cannot answer? Seems more like the knowledge shortcoming is on your side. If all of the "answers" are in your "creation" myth then you should have been able to provide them easily enough.