Recruiting blues

[mrsx]

One last thing - simply to correct your obviously woeful ignorance on basic military facts. It is a universally accepted axiom that combatants occupying a prepared defensive position have a 3 to 1 advantage over those attacking. Just to make sure this penetrates your prejudices - that means that one guy in a bunker can hold off 3 guys trying to get in. Got that?

When our people have to fight house to house, they are up against very similar odds. The fact that we didn't lose three people for every muslim we whacked but in fact killed two for every one of ours is indicative that our people are effective and know what they're doing.

But feel free to skew the facts any way that suits your purposes. You can't damage your credibilty any further.

I certainly agree that our military are effective and know what they are doing. As in Viet Nam, the casualty ratio is unacceptable politically to the voters back home - it has nothing to do with whatever napoleonic handbook you are reading. This is asymetric warfare, not Verdun - remember? The jihadis strategic goal is to paralyze the puppet government and convince the Sunnis that we Americans can't protect them, not to play the numbers game. It continues to amaze me that people like you cannot detect the difference between my criticism of the political leadership that got us into this mess and criticism of the soldiers who are paying so dearly for the inadequacy of that leadership. Perhaps the distinction is too subtle for you; your need to spout and shout keeps you from reading what I wrote.

 

[Merlin1047]

It continues to amaze me that people like you cannot detect the difference between my criticism of the political leadership that got us into this mess and criticism of the soldiers who are paying so dearly for the inadequacy of that leadership. Perhaps the distinction is too subtle for you; your need to spout and shout keeps you from reading what I wrote.

No. Contrary to your arrogant assumptions, I am more than capable of interpreting the vitriolic garbage you spew. The fact is that your posts are filled with ill-considered statements which indicate that you take a great delight in the travails of our military because that gives you the anvil upon which you can hammer the president.

So don't try me on for size lady. I'm a lot better at this than you'll ever think about being. That, and I'm not a dried-up, bitter little gnome like you.

 

[Merlin1047]

This is asymetric warfare, not Verdun - remember? The jihadis strategic goal is to paralyze the puppet government and convince the Sunnis that we Americans can't protect them, not to play the numbers game.

Ah - the time honored bullshit tactic - if you get caught making a stupid statement, simply pretend you never made it. You stated categorically that our troops were getting their "asses kicked". Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the principles of battle remain the same. There is no asymmetry when you're fighting house to house and you simply ignore these facts in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of the stupid pronoucements you made in your previous post.

No dice - at least one of us has sufficient recall to hold you to account.

 

[mrsx]

No. Contrary to your arrogant assumptions, I am more than capable of interpreting the vitriolic garbage you spew. The fact is that your posts are filled with ill-considered statements which indicate that you take a great delight in the travails of our military because that gives you the anvil upon which you can hammer the president.

So don't try me on for size lady. I'm a lot better at this than you'll ever think about being. That, and I'm not a dried-up, bitter little gnome like you.

I find no reason to try you on for size. It is clear from your mindless invective and unsupported accusations that your brain is even tinier than your manhood. I guess the Viagra didn't work, huh? Save your breath, you'll need it to blow up your date.

 

[Merlin1047]

your need to spout and shout keeps you from reading what I wrote.

Oh, I couldn't let this one pass. MY need to "spout and shout"??? Check the posts, lady. See who's on the soap box waving her little liberal's handbook and spouting distortions. It ain't me, babe.

 

[Merlin1047]

I find no reason to try you on for size. It is clear from your mindless invective and unsupported accusations that your brain is even tinier than your manhood. I guess the Viagra didn't work, huh? Save your breath, you'll need it to blow up your date.

Oh, very good. Going into meltdown I see. I suppose it was inevitable. Given the quality of your "logic" I wondered when your psychotic personality would finally burst under the strain.

Insult away. The only reaction you're getting from me is that I'm laughing my ass off that I've finally gotten another lib dingbat to do her Rosie impersonation. Congratulations - good job.

 

[mrsx]

Ah - the time honored bullshit tactic - if you get caught making a stupid statement, simply pretend you never made it. You stated categorically that our troops were getting their "asses kicked". Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the principles of battle remain the same. There is no asymmetry when you're fighting house to house and you simply ignore these facts in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of the stupid pronoucements you made in your previous post.

No dice - at least one of us has sufficient recall to hold you to account.

I stand by my statement about the search and destroy mission in al Anbar and the counter-insurgency campaign in general. Does it not seem unfortunate to you that two and a half years after the fall of Saddam it is still not safe to travel the road from the Green Zone to the airport? We cannot protect the energy infrastructure although it is the highest priority to do so. We have failed to seal the borders with Syria and Iran. We are playing Whack a Mole, leaping from Fallujah (now back in the hands of the insurgents) to al Anbar etc. etc. netting a handful of suspected enemy while U.S. casualties are causing recruiting shortfalls that will lead to a crisis if not cured. All this in a country the size of California with a population of some 25 million people. If this is your idea of victory, I'd hate to see what you call defeat.

 

[mrsx]

1st Lt. Kenrick Cato, 34, of Long Island, N.Y., the executive officer of Charlie Company (a unit of the new Iraqi army being trained by Americans), sold his share in a database firm to join the military full time after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Whatever you think of me, this guy is a patriot who has put his body on the line for his country. Read what he has to say from beautiful downtown BAIJI, Iraq, about how things are going:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5060902245.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

 

[GotZoom]

1st Lt. Kenrick Cato, 34, of Long Island, N.Y., the executive officer of Charlie Company (a unit of the new Iraqi army being trained by Americans), sold his share in a database firm to join the military full time after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Whatever you think of me, this guy is a patriot who has put his body on the line for his country. Read what he has to say from beautiful downtown BAIJI, Iraq, about how things are going:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5060902245.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

---
"Two Washington Post reporters spent three days traveling with the Americans and the Iraqis, respectively. The unit was selected by the U.S. military. The journey revealed fundamental, perhaps irreconcilable differences over everything from the reluctance of Muslim soldiers to search mosques and homes to basic questions of lifestyle. Earlier this year, for instance, the Americans imported Western-style portable toilets that the Iraqis, accustomed to another style, found objectionable. In an attempt to bridge the difference, the U.S. military installed diagrams depicting proper use of the 'port-a-johns.'"

----Three whole days? No wonder they got such an insightful and truthful take on what is happening over there...in that big country...with all our soldiers....not just those they witnessed for 3 whole days.

And if one of the things they are pointing out in the article the "objectionable" port-a-johns, it is very obvious they are stretching to find things wrong.

---

Very good article - good reading. All of the bashing quotes come from the Iraqis - now that is a surprise.

It mentioned our soldiers didn't respect them - well, when they run away, change into civilian clothes, won't even clean their own weapons, and hide,

What do you expect?

As the one US soldier said, ""You are all cowards," he began. "My soldiers are over here, away from our families for a year. We are willing to die for you to have freedom. You should be willing to die for your own freedom. If you continue to run away from the enemy, the enemy will continue to chase you. You will never win."

Very insightful.

 

[007]

from: New York Times, Juen 3, 2005

A Department of Defense survey last November, the latest, shows that only 25 percent of parents would recommend military service to their children, down from 42 percent in August 2003.

Told you so! GWB is the best thing Osama has going for him.

I've YET to see you post something POSITIVE about America. (Which by the way is your liberal cohorts rabid call nowadays, NOTHING positive.) Here's a suggestion, GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE, and take that socialist assbag PULIT WITH YOU!

 

[mrsx]

That's called terrorism, you know the ones that don't exist in Iarq!


Media Paranoia certainly has a pretty good hold on you, and you claim to of been in the service?

Amazing how you can possibly think that this should be an easy in and out effort. Sure if it were a conventional war, the troops marched through Iraq's so called army in the first week. Unfortunately it is anything but conventional, our troops are fighting a enemy that is relatively invisible! these terrorists are coming from all over and getting themselves killed little by little. And you have the audacity to make mockery of their efforts? don't say that you are'nt because you most certainly are. The war on terrorism is going to be very long, get used to it!

Hear me, O Evil One: The Iraq disaster is not high school football and patriotism is not school spirt writ large. Yes, it is called terrorism and after two and a half years we still can't go from the bunker to the airport because the terrorists control the capitol. That was sort of my point. Now we see that Bush & Co. didn't see any of this coming. Would you concede that was a boo-boo no matter onto whose shoulders you wish to shift the blame? Those troops were sent to fight the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place with the wrong equipment. Put down your pom-poms and wake up to the fact that criticizing the competence of the political leadership is not disrespectful to the armed forces. Conflating the two is trick one in the fascist play book and you know it.

 

[mrsx]

I've YET to see you post something POSITIVE about America. (Which by the way is your liberal cohorts rabid call nowadays, NOTHING positive.) Here's a suggestion, GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE, and take that socialist assbag PULIT WITH YOU!

I have said a number of positive things about the service of those in the military. I have nothing positive to say about the political leadership behind them. I don't need to prove my patriotism by posting feel-good messages about America. Look at my signature, sonny, I'm no liberal!

 

[Annie]

It's all on slant, whichever side. mrsx just wants to put out the bad, to further its argument against the administration. Here's another take. Links at site. Interestingly this has several instances, not just one reporter seeming to look for gripers over a few days time:

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/002941.html

June 07, 2005
Choosing Sides

When Operation LIGHTNING kicked off, as Iraqi troops swept through Baghdad rounding up "insurgents", headlines across America touted the power of the terrorist forces they opposed. The Boston Globe's coverage was typical: Insurgents kill 38, wound dozens in attacks. Elsewhere headlines like Military sweeps in Baghdad fiercely resisted were about the best the Iraqi troops and their American allies could hope for. By June 3rd NBC virtually claimed victory for the terrorists - or at least had declared the Iraqi effort a failure. Under the headline Operation Lightning packs little thunder their bottom line was that "this operation, sold by the government as a bolt of lightning, is, so far, packing little punch."

This week the Iraq government announced that thus far there have been 900 Suspected Militants Arrested In Baghdad Sweep, as today's USA Today duly notes. It's usually hard to argue against measured success, but immediately after that report from the Iraqi government the LA Times found a way to do it:

Other Iraq Hot Spots May Flare

As Iraqi commanders have deployed about 40,000 troops for a security crackdown in Baghdad, violence elsewhere has raised concern that other trouble spots have been left more vulnerable to insurgent attacks.

Assaults in Mosul during the last five days have claimed the lives of 11 people and wounded another 11. In the latest attack in the northern city, insurgents fired mortar rounds at a police station Monday, killing at least one civilian.

In nearby Tall Afar, Iraqi police shot and killed two insurgents who had attacked their compound with rocket-propelled grenades. On Sunday, five people were killed in a mortar attack in the city, including two women and two children, the U.S. military said.

To recap: yesterday's news was the failure of Operation LIGHTNING. This morning's news was that the success of Operation LIGHTNING was just causing problems in places like Tal Afar - we don't have enough troops, you see.

But here's this afternoon's story

U.S., Iraqi troops launch Tal Afar offensive

Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. and Iraqi troops on Tuesday launched an offensive against insurgents in the northwestern city of Tal Afar -- not far from the Syrian border.

"Dozens of tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles and Apache helicopters have moved in to a neighborhood in the town which is thought to be a stronghold of insurgents," said senior Baghdad correspondent Jane Arraf, who is embedded with U.S. troops.

<...>

Some 4,000 U.S. troops moved into the Tal Afar area in recent weeks.

Of course, it's doomed to fail, as tomorrows news will no doubt make clear.

Meanwhile, Al Jazeera.com notes:

American media no longer accept Bushs war lies

A strange phenomenon is occurring in national American papers, with many editors beginning to condemn the war in Iraq, when previously many of them "accepted" it.

<...>

Last week was Memorial Day in the U.S. and it seemed to bring out the anger in some editorial writers, who usually, especially during such a celebration, are afraid to say anything about a current conflict that might seem to slight the sacrifices of men and women, past and present.

"Usually" - but not this year. The Baltimore Sun, Chicago Tribune, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and Minneapolis Star-Tribune were singled out for special praise.


Posted by Greyhawk at June 7, 2005 11:00 PM

 

[mrsx]

It's all on slant, whichever side. mrsx just wants to put out the bad, to further its argument against the administration.

I want all of you to listen to what Kathianne says because compared to you, she's a goddamn *genius*! I oppose the war; I oppose the administration. I do not blame or criticize the troops for doing their sworn duty, usually with bravery and honor. I bring to this debate the evidence that supports my point of view and expect my opponents to do the same. I never begin the name calling, but as those of you whom I have slapped down recently can recall all too well, I don't let myself be bullied by it either.

 

[Annie]

I want all of you to listen to what Kathianne says because compared to you, she's a goddamn *genius*! I oppose the war; I oppose the administration. I do not blame or criticize the troops for doing their sworn duty, usually with bravery and honor. I bring to this debate the evidence that supports my point of view and expect my opponents to do the same. I never begin the name calling, but as those of you whom I have slapped down recently can recall all too well, I don't let myself be bullied by it either.

Ummm the reasonable posters are not going to get mad at me just because of all your kind words.

 

[Annie]

Ummm the reasonable posters are not going to get mad at me just because of all your kind words.

Here's another on the 'awful' Iraqi Police:

Once again, multiple instances, links at site.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/05/coalition_force.html

Coalition Forces And Iraqi Police Stop Suicide Bombers

First, here's some official DOD footage of 3rd Infantry Division forces (along with a Texas National Guard unit) and Iraqi Police stopping a Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device:

VBIED In Tikrit

A combination of coalition and Iraqi forces track down, capture, and secure a vehicle born improvised explosive device in Tikrit, Iraq before it is detonated by insurgents. Soundbites from 1.) First Lieutenant Eric Belisle, 3rd/133rd Field Artillery Regiment from San Antonio, TX 2.) Sergeant Jose Pena, Team Leader of the 133rd Field Artillery Regiment 3.) Sergeant First Class Gary Sundgren, Platoon Leader of the 133rd Field Artillery Regiment from Liberty, TX. Video from the 22nd Mobile Public Affairs Detachment.

Here are a few photos of explosives and suicide bombing equipment recently captured in Baghdad (click on thumbnails for larger version):
Temp_display_img_7130

BAGHDAD: Nearly 100 sticks of C-4 plastic explosives seized by Iraqi Army Soldiers during a raid on a suspected terror cell in the north central Baghdad town of Al Waziriah. The raid also netted 4 suspects, several suicide vests and a possible (hit list) of names to target. (Photo courtesy of U.S. Army)
Temp_display_img_7131

BAGHDAD: A suicide vest taken from a suspected terror cell during an early morning raid May 9 in north central Baghdad. Iraqi Army Soldiers seized 4 suspects, nearly 100 sticks of C-4 explosives, suicide vests and a possible list of targets. (Photo courtesy of U.S. Army)

Posted by Blackfive | May 10, 2005 in Military

 

[Fmr jarhead]

I am advocating for courtesy not appeasment. While there are some dedicated fanatics on their side who will not be swayed by courtesy or indeed much of anything we do or say, there are still large numbers of Arabs in the middle - the ones that are your friends and resent the hijacking of Islam by fundamentalists for example. GWB has recognized this from 9/12 onward, repeatedly saying that our issues are not with Islam but with terrorists who use Islam to hide behind. I think those of you who are his supporters would do well to follow his lead. The racist rhetoric tends to lump all Arabs, perhaps all Muslims into one group. This is not only inaccurate, it is against U.S. interests to do so. Iraq, along with Syria and Egypt has been one of the secular leaders in the Arab world. These folks have no patience with the Wahabis and Taliban crazies. Do we want to drive them into each other's arms? Being a superpower means having a modicum of cosmopolitan sophistication. Perhaps we ought to rein in our own jihadists as a start...

So how courteous do we need to be to the medieval thugs and the non-Iraqi Arabs who comprise the majority of insurgents in Iraq? Should we ask them to our camps for tea? If the majority of Iraqis wanted us out of their country, I suspect you would see them protesting en masse to get us out....and none of the press that have "experienced" all that Iraq has to offer (for 3-5 day stints) have reported any Iraqi uprising against the US (unlike their neighbors in Iran...who are chanting for revolution, and TRUE Democracy)

We are on the cusp of radical change in the Middle East, and the beneficiaries will be the moderate middle, just as we are here in the US. The majority of US supports the President, the administration, and will likely vote for whomever he endorses as the next nominee.

Having a "modicum of cosmopolitan sophistication" does not mean we should turn the other cheek with medieval thugs seek to impose thier outrageous theology on the masses, and kill everyone who does not agree! We need to be ever vigilant in protecting the freedoms of others who cannot protect themselves, and if you would rather stand on the sidelines and watch the slaughter, and ignore it, then you are just as guilty as those who commit the beheadings.

 

[mrsx]

Unfortunately you are wrong again! point the finger at Bush all you want but he is not calling the shots on the battlefield! You most definitely are taking a shot at the military as they are the strategists in the field.

I think it has become obvious that you are fornicating with the enemy to have such sympathy, I'm convinced!

Nice try, but even you know that the situation is quite otherwise. CJCS Shinseki told Rummy & Friends that "hundreds of thousands" of troops would be needed to secure Iraq after the defeat of the Iraqi military. He was humiliated and forced into retirement. Generals who raised objections about force levels and lack of occupation planning were passed over until they got down to Franks, a man whose ambition for another star overcame his good judgement and got him the job. These are the strategic decisions which form the parameters within which field grade commanders must try to make the best of the tactical situation. Their hands are often tied by the vast bureaucracy at the embassy. The Fallujah operation, for example, was whipsawed back and forth by political appointees to please the puppet government, allowing the insurgents to get away. The current Operation Lightening ("surrounding" Baghdad) was ordered to show off the so-called new Iraqi army to the press, putting our soldiers in unnecessary jeopardy for a public relations show. Shades of Viet Nam!

 

[mrsx]

So how courteous do we need to be to the medieval thugs and the non-Iraqi Arabs who comprise the majority of insurgents in Iraq? Should we ask them to our camps for tea? If the majority of Iraqis wanted us out of their country, I suspect you would see them protesting en masse to get us out....and none of the press that have "experienced" all that Iraq has to offer (for 3-5 day stints) have reported any Iraqi uprising against the US (unlike their neighbors in Iran...who are chanting for revolution, and TRUE Democracy)

We are on the cusp of radical change in the Middle East, and the beneficiaries will be the moderate middle, just as we are here in the US. The majority of US supports the President, the administration, and will likely vote for whomever he endorses as the next nominee.

Having a "modicum of cosmopolitan sophistication" does not mean we should turn the other cheek with medieval thugs seek to impose thier outrageous theology on the masses, and kill everyone who does not agree! We need to be ever vigilant in protecting the freedoms of others who cannot protect themselves, and if you would rather stand on the sidelines and watch the slaughter, and ignore it, then you are just as guilty as those who commit the beheadings.

We are on the cusp all right. The cusp of an islamist take over in Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq, The cusp of the fall of the house of Saud. The cusp of bringing an islamist government to power in Turkey, possibly in Egypt as well. The cusp of an Iran backed Hezbollah provoking a nuclear war with Israel. Yes, we are on the cusp of exciting times. Perhaps that is why Henry Kissinger and Brent Scowcroft publicly warned this administration against the policies that have gotten us to this sorry pass.

 

[Fmr jarhead]

Generals who raised objections about force levels and lack of occupation planning were passed over until they got down to Franks, a man whose ambition for another star overcame his good judgement and got him the job.

I would really like to hear more about how his last star had anything to do with troop strength numbers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Would you kindly spell it out for me?