Recognition not territory

[Shusha]

Except where do you get two groups? They were all Palestinians. Other than that, I agree.

So who are these foreign military occupiers you are going on about, then?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And there you go again, misinterpreation and improper citation.

P F Tinmore, et al,

OK so where is this famous UN quote.

This is impossible. The Arab Palestinians never had "title or rights" to any of the regional territory. The "Title and Rights" were surrendered to the Allied Powers.

The UN says different from the Israeli propaganda that you are reading from.

What here refutes my post?

(COMMENT)

I'm very interested in seeing where the UN make the determination that the Arab Palestinians had "Title and Rights" to any territory prior to 1988.

I don't think you can demonstrate Arab Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

There you go again reverting back to your Israeli propaganda talking points.

Recognizing
that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

Note that it says that Palestinians have the already existing inalienable right to self determination in Palestine. The Palestinians exist. Palestine exists. Where is Palestine? What were its international borders in 1974? When did the Palestinians get their already existing rights.

The fact that the Palestinians have been prevented from enjoying their inalienable rights to Sovereignty or Independence by foreign military occupation does not negate those rights.

(COMMENT)

First, UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237 give nothing to the Palestinians, nor are either binding on any party.

Second, the "right of self-determination" does not confer and "Title or Rights" to territory. It merely stipulates that given the proper circumstances, the Arab Palestinian can declare independence. But the "rights" of self-determination are not unique to the Arab Palestinians. And the Arab Palestinians cannot use their "rights" to interfere with the "rights" of others.

Third, the Arab Palestinians exercised their "right to self-determination" not just once but a few times. Each time the Arab Palestinians declined to participate in the development of autonomous government (no matter the reason) they exercised their "right of self-determination." The Arab Palestinians did this three time before 1923, the voted in April 1950 to be annexed by Jordan, AND they did it again in 1988 when they declared Independence. At no time were the Arab Palestinians denied their "right to self-determination."

Fourth, there is (as has been pointed out to you before) a timeline issue here. On 22 November 1974 the UN General Assembly passed two resolutions 3326 and 3327, that recognized the cause of Palestinian self-determination and the status of the PLO as representing the Palestinian people, and gave the PLO observer status at the UN.

• In the year 1974, the West Bank was still sovereign territory of the Hashemite Kingdom. Israel had nothing to do with obstruction the Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination." The Hashemite Kingdom did not officially abandon the West Bank until 1988 when the King cut all ties with the West Bank.

• In 1974, while the Egyptian Military Governorship evacuated the Gaza Strip, and left the Israeli Occupation on its own, the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished). While it should have been taken into care by the UN Trusteeship, that never happened. And Israel explicitly declined to assume sovereignty. Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").
​

I'm beginning to believe that you don't understand what "rights" actually are. The philosophy of “rights” pertains only to take an action or oppose an action. — Specifically, it also means that there is a freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by others. The Arab Palestinian cannot use their right to interfere with the "rights" of the Israelis, or the "Title and Rights" transferred from the sovereign to another entity under the Treaty of Lausanne.

These citations you provided have no impact on the discussion at hand. Again, the Arab Palestinians had "Title and Rights" to any territory prior to 1988.

Most Respectfully,
R

• In 1974, while the Egyptian Military Governorship evacuated the Gaza Strip, and left the Israeli Occupation on its own, the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished). While it should have been taken into care by the UN Trusteeship, that never happened. And Israel explicitly declined to assume sovereignty.

the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished)​

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").​

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And there you go again, misinterpreation and improper citation.

P F Tinmore, et al,

OK so where is this famous UN quote.

This is impossible. The Arab Palestinians never had "title or rights" to any of the regional territory. The "Title and Rights" were surrendered to the Allied Powers.

The UN says different from the Israeli propaganda that you are reading from.

What here refutes my post?

(COMMENT)

I'm very interested in seeing where the UN make the determination that the Arab Palestinians had "Title and Rights" to any territory prior to 1988.

I don't think you can demonstrate Arab Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

There you go again reverting back to your Israeli propaganda talking points.

Recognizing
that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

Note that it says that Palestinians have the already existing inalienable right to self determination in Palestine. The Palestinians exist. Palestine exists. Where is Palestine? What were its international borders in 1974? When did the Palestinians get their already existing rights.

The fact that the Palestinians have been prevented from enjoying their inalienable rights to Sovereignty or Independence by foreign military occupation does not negate those rights.

(COMMENT)

First, UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237 give nothing to the Palestinians, nor are either binding on any party.

Second, the "right of self-determination" does not confer and "Title or Rights" to territory. It merely stipulates that given the proper circumstances, the Arab Palestinian can declare independence. But the "rights" of self-determination are not unique to the Arab Palestinians. And the Arab Palestinians cannot use their "rights" to interfere with the "rights" of others.

Third, the Arab Palestinians exercised their "right to self-determination" not just once but a few times. Each time the Arab Palestinians declined to participate in the development of autonomous government (no matter the reason) they exercised their "right of self-determination." The Arab Palestinians did this three time before 1923, the voted in April 1950 to be annexed by Jordan, AND they did it again in 1988 when they declared Independence. At no time were the Arab Palestinians denied their "right to self-determination."

Fourth, there is (as has been pointed out to you before) a timeline issue here. On 22 November 1974 the UN General Assembly passed two resolutions 3326 and 3327, that recognized the cause of Palestinian self-determination and the status of the PLO as representing the Palestinian people, and gave the PLO observer status at the UN.

• In the year 1974, the West Bank was still sovereign territory of the Hashemite Kingdom. Israel had nothing to do with obstruction the Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination." The Hashemite Kingdom did not officially abandon the West Bank until 1988 when the King cut all ties with the West Bank.

• In 1974, while the Egyptian Military Governorship evacuated the Gaza Strip, and left the Israeli Occupation on its own, the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished). While it should have been taken into care by the UN Trusteeship, that never happened. And Israel explicitly declined to assume sovereignty. Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").
​

I'm beginning to believe that you don't understand what "rights" actually are. The philosophy of “rights” pertains only to take an action or oppose an action. — Specifically, it also means that there is a freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by others. The Arab Palestinian cannot use their right to interfere with the "rights" of the Israelis, or the "Title and Rights" transferred from the sovereign to another entity under the Treaty of Lausanne.

These citations you provided have no impact on the discussion at hand. Again, the Arab Palestinians had "Title and Rights" to any territory prior to 1988.

Most Respectfully,
R

• In 1974, while the Egyptian Military Governorship evacuated the Gaza Strip, and left the Israeli Occupation on its own, the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished). While it should have been taken into care by the UN Trusteeship, that never happened. And Israel explicitly declined to assume sovereignty.

the Gaza Strip was in a status Terra Nullius (sovereignty was implicitly relinquished)​

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").​

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

WRONG as they could not declare on land already acquired by another nation, on top of which the land was already accepted under International laws as being Jewish. Lastly the arab league did not have the remit to declare independence and so on all 3 points the UN declined to accept the foreign interference.


As you have already accepted that the Jews were legally allowed to open up Palestine for migration the Jews who declared independence were full citizens of the land

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, come on --- get with it. Just as a point of clarification and correction: The Gaza Strip was the Palestinian, as defined by the order in Council, land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

(COMMENT)

First, I never said that Egypt Annexed anything. IF you go back to Posting #76, you will find that I mentioned the Egyptian Military Governorship and not annexation. Below are excepts from three independent sources.

At first the Gaza Strip was officially administered by the All-Palestine Government, established by the Arab League in September 1948. All-Palestine in the Gaza Strip was managed under the military authority of Egypt, functioning as puppet state, until it officially merged into the United Arab Republic and dissolved in 1959. From the time of the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government until 1967, the Gaza Strip was directly administered by an Egyptian military governor. Israel captured the Gaza Strip from Egypt in the Six-Day War in 1967.

Gaza came under Egyptian rule until it was occupied by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War. Gaza became a center of political resistance during the First Intifada, and under the Oslo Accords of 1993, it was assigned to be under the direct control of the newly established Palestinian Authority.

The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967.
​

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

(COMMENT)

This is so screwed-up that it needs scrapped and rewritten. Lets just make this clear. No matter what the All-Palestine Government (APG) is claimed to represent, in order to endow the government with legitimacy, a Palestinian National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948, under the chairmanship of the Mufti of Jerusalem. The council, in a mood of great elation, passed a series of resolutions culminating in a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine. BUT, there are two flaws that collapse the APG theory of legitimacy:

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.

∆ No matter what "rights" the Arab Palestinians claim, Palestinian "rights" cannot negate the freedom of the the Jewish People to exercise their "right of self-determination" and their freedom to establish the Jewish National Home.
​

• A right to independence exercised in May 1948 pursuant to the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, supersedes.

∆ The APG failed to legitimize their September 1948 claim over the May 1948 claim by the Israelis.
​

In Cairo, the Government of All-Palestine gradually fell apart because of its impotence, ending up four years later as a department of the Arab League. Thereafter, it continued to exist in name only until Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser closed its offices in 1959.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, come on --- get with it. Just as a point of clarification and correction: The Gaza Strip was the Palestinian, as defined by the order in Council, land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

(COMMENT)

First, I never said that Egypt Annexed anything. IF you go back to Posting #76, you will find that I mentioned the Egyptian Military Governorship and not annexation. Below are excepts from three independent sources.

At first the Gaza Strip was officially administered by the All-Palestine Government, established by the Arab League in September 1948. All-Palestine in the Gaza Strip was managed under the military authority of Egypt, functioning as puppet state, until it officially merged into the United Arab Republic and dissolved in 1959. From the time of the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government until 1967, the Gaza Strip was directly administered by an Egyptian military governor. Israel captured the Gaza Strip from Egypt in the Six-Day War in 1967.

Gaza came under Egyptian rule until it was occupied by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War. Gaza became a center of political resistance during the First Intifada, and under the Oslo Accords of 1993, it was assigned to be under the direct control of the newly established Palestinian Authority.

The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967.
​

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

(COMMENT)

This is so screwed-up that it needs scrapped and rewritten. Lets just make this clear. No matter what the All-Palestine Government (APG) is claimed to represent, in order to endow the government with legitimacy, a Palestinian National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948, under the chairmanship of the Mufti of Jerusalem. The council, in a mood of great elation, passed a series of resolutions culminating in a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine. BUT, there are two flaws that collapse the APG theory of legitimacy:

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.

∆ No matter what "rights" the Arab Palestinians claim, Palestinian "rights" cannot negate the freedom of the the Jewish People to exercise their "right of self-determination" and their freedom to establish the Jewish National Home.
​

• A right to independence exercised in May 1948 pursuant to the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, supersedes.

∆ The APG failed to legitimize their September 1948 claim over the May 1948 claim by the Israelis.
​

In Cairo, the Government of All-Palestine gradually fell apart because of its impotence, ending up four years later as a department of the Arab League. Thereafter, it continued to exist in name only until Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser closed its offices in 1959.

Most Respectfully,
R

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.​

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries.​

What boundaries were those?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.​

Seizing territory by military force is illegal.

Israel seized Palestinian land in a war with Palestine's neighbors?

Can you show where that is legal?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, come on --- get with it. Just as a point of clarification and correction: The Gaza Strip was the Palestinian, as defined by the order in Council, land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

(COMMENT)

First, I never said that Egypt Annexed anything. IF you go back to Posting #76, you will find that I mentioned the Egyptian Military Governorship and not annexation. Below are excepts from three independent sources.

At first the Gaza Strip was officially administered by the All-Palestine Government, established by the Arab League in September 1948. All-Palestine in the Gaza Strip was managed under the military authority of Egypt, functioning as puppet state, until it officially merged into the United Arab Republic and dissolved in 1959. From the time of the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government until 1967, the Gaza Strip was directly administered by an Egyptian military governor. Israel captured the Gaza Strip from Egypt in the Six-Day War in 1967.

Gaza came under Egyptian rule until it was occupied by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War. Gaza became a center of political resistance during the First Intifada, and under the Oslo Accords of 1993, it was assigned to be under the direct control of the newly established Palestinian Authority.

The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967.
​

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

(COMMENT)

This is so screwed-up that it needs scrapped and rewritten. Lets just make this clear. No matter what the All-Palestine Government (APG) is claimed to represent, in order to endow the government with legitimacy, a Palestinian National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948, under the chairmanship of the Mufti of Jerusalem. The council, in a mood of great elation, passed a series of resolutions culminating in a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine. BUT, there are two flaws that collapse the APG theory of legitimacy:

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.

∆ No matter what "rights" the Arab Palestinians claim, Palestinian "rights" cannot negate the freedom of the the Jewish People to exercise their "right of self-determination" and their freedom to establish the Jewish National Home.
​

• A right to independence exercised in May 1948 pursuant to the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, supersedes.

∆ The APG failed to legitimize their September 1948 claim over the May 1948 claim by the Israelis.
​

In Cairo, the Government of All-Palestine gradually fell apart because of its impotence, ending up four years later as a department of the Arab League. Thereafter, it continued to exist in name only until Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser closed its offices in 1959.

Most Respectfully,
R

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.​

Not true.

ARTICLE 4

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933​

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well you get this wrong every single time.

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Seizing territory by military force is illegal.

Israel seized Palestinian land in a war with Palestine's neighbors?

Can you show where that is legal?

(COMMENT)

The principle driving force is Chapter 1 - Article 2(4) --- UN Charter. This essentially is is talking about "Acts of Aggression." It restricts the use of force as a primary means of acquisition of territory (Example: when the Arab League collectively attacked Israel). It does not say a damn thing about the seizure of territory pursuant to self-defense; under Chapter VII - Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace ad Acts of Aggression. If in the active defense against an aggressor, the nothing prohibits the acquisition of lost territory before the cessation of hostilities.

The War was with the Arab League forces who openly attacked the State of Israel. That war began in 1948 and has not ended yet. The Peace with each party to the conflict is separate.

You are making this stuff up as you go. There is absolutely no legal foundation for the unified attack by the Arab League.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

P F Tinmore, et al,

OK so where is this famous UN quote.

This is impossible. The Arab Palestinians never had "title or rights" to any of the regional territory. The "Title and Rights" were surrendered to the Allied Powers.

The UN says different from the Israeli propaganda that you are reading from.

What here refutes my post?

(COMMENT)

I'm very interested in seeing where the UN make the determination that the Arab Palestinians had "Title and Rights" to any territory prior to 1988.

I don't think you can demonstrate Arab Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

What gave the Palestinians "Title and Rights" to territory in 1988 that they did not have previously?

Again, the land belonged to the Ottomans for over half a century, and then to the British after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3


163. The Arabs of Palestine consider themselves as having a "natural" right to that country, although they have not been in possession of it as a sovereign nation.


166. The desire of the Arab people of Palestine to safeguard their national existence is a very natural desire. However, Palestinian nationalism, as distinct from Arab nationalism, is itself a relatively new phenomenon, which appeared only after the division of the "Arab rectangle" by the settlement of the First World War.


175. The Peel Commission, in referring to the matter, had noted in its report that "there was a time when Arab statesmen were willing to consider giving Palestine to the Jews, provided that the rest of Arab Asia was free. That condition was not fulfilled then, but it is on the eve of fulfilment now".

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN has never defined Palestine except as in regards to the 1988 Declaration.

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

(COMMENT)

The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system.

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
​

As you well know, I've explained it enough, the UN system uses "Palestine" to replace the designation PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN has never defined Palestine except as in regards to the 1988 Declaration.

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

(COMMENT)

The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system.

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
​

As you well know, I've explained it enough, the UN system uses "Palestine" to replace the designation PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, so what does that have to do with my post?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You said that: "The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine."

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN has never defined Palestine except as in regards to the 1988 Declaration.

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

(COMMENT)

The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system.

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
​

As you well know, I've explained it enough, the UN system uses "Palestine" to replace the designation PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, so what does that have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

I then quoted the UN Resolution that acknowledged the self-determination and independence of the Arab Palestinian. That "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system.

UN SYSTEM --- the 1988 term of Palestine replaces the PLO designation.

Within the UN System that acknowledged the proclamation of the "State of Palestine" by the "Palestine National Council" on 15 November 1988; Palestine = the replacement for PLO. It has no negotiated borders.
THAT IS WHAT IT HAS TO DO WITH YOUR POST. The International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt; are Israel. The Permanent Status of Negotiations has to settle the issue of borders, as one of many issues. The Arab Palestinians keep holding out.

The Paulette-Newcombe//Sykes-Picot Agreements originally set the "territories to which the former Mandate for Palestine applied. Which (of course) comes from the Palestine Order in Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You said that: "The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine."

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN has never defined Palestine except as in regards to the 1988 Declaration.

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

(COMMENT)

The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system.

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
​

As you well know, I've explained it enough, the UN system uses "Palestine" to replace the designation PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, so what does that have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

I then quoted the UN Resolution that acknowledged the self-determination and independence of the Arab Palestinian. That "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system.

UN SYSTEM --- the 1988 term of Palestine replaces the PLO designation.

Within the UN System that acknowledged the proclamation of the "State of Palestine" by the "Palestine National Council" on 15 November 1988; Palestine = the replacement for PLO. It has no negotiated borders.
THAT IS WHAT IT HAS TO DO WITH YOUR POST. The International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt; are Israel. The Permanent Status of Negotiations has to settle the issue of borders, as one of many issues. The Arab Palestinians keep holding out.

The Paulette-Newcombe//Sykes-Picot Agreements originally set the "territories to which the former Mandate for Palestine applied. Which (of course) comes from the Palestine Order in Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

I am still curious as to what this has to do with my post.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, come on --- get with it. Just as a point of clarification and correction: The Gaza Strip was the Palestinian, as defined by the order in Council, land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

Not true. Egypt never annexed the Gaza strip into Egypt. Egypt relinquished control not sovereignty. The Gaza Strip was Palestinian land before, during, and after Egyptian occupation.

(COMMENT)

First, I never said that Egypt Annexed anything. IF you go back to Posting #76, you will find that I mentioned the Egyptian Military Governorship and not annexation. Below are excepts from three independent sources.

At first the Gaza Strip was officially administered by the All-Palestine Government, established by the Arab League in September 1948. All-Palestine in the Gaza Strip was managed under the military authority of Egypt, functioning as puppet state, until it officially merged into the United Arab Republic and dissolved in 1959. From the time of the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government until 1967, the Gaza Strip was directly administered by an Egyptian military governor. Israel captured the Gaza Strip from Egypt in the Six-Day War in 1967.

Gaza came under Egyptian rule until it was occupied by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War. Gaza became a center of political resistance during the First Intifada, and under the Oslo Accords of 1993, it was assigned to be under the direct control of the newly established Palestinian Authority.

The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967.
​

Even the Arab Palestinians declined to declare independence (another example of Arab Palestinian "right to self-determination").

Not true. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948. That was after the Mandate left Palestine and the UNPC failed to take control. And it was before the UN officially divided Palestine into three areas of occupation in the 1949 armistice agreements.

(COMMENT)

This is so screwed-up that it needs scrapped and rewritten. Lets just make this clear. No matter what the All-Palestine Government (APG) is claimed to represent, in order to endow the government with legitimacy, a Palestinian National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948, under the chairmanship of the Mufti of Jerusalem. The council, in a mood of great elation, passed a series of resolutions culminating in a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine. BUT, there are two flaws that collapse the APG theory of legitimacy:

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.

∆ No matter what "rights" the Arab Palestinians claim, Palestinian "rights" cannot negate the freedom of the the Jewish People to exercise their "right of self-determination" and their freedom to establish the Jewish National Home.
​

• A right to independence exercised in May 1948 pursuant to the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, supersedes.

∆ The APG failed to legitimize their September 1948 claim over the May 1948 claim by the Israelis.
​

In Cairo, the Government of All-Palestine gradually fell apart because of its impotence, ending up four years later as a department of the Arab League. Thereafter, it continued to exist in name only until Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser closed its offices in 1959.

Most Respectfully,
R

• The Israeli Provisional Government declared independence over a portion of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine. Whereas, the APG declaration of independence over the entire landscape of Palestine.​

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

Here you go the actual defined terrotory as stated under international law of 1922



Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory:



PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.
Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.




Through the LoN mandate system and the UN charter provisions as detailed in UN resolutions


They dont they use the borders mutually agreed between Israel and its neighbours


Only islamonazi propagandists and morons cant see that the answers are very clear and are posted on here for you at least twice a week


Now what were the defined borders of the APG declaration and can you provide a map of these limits from 1948 ?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries.​

What boundaries were those?

Read the link and find out, or is that beyond your capabilities

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt.​

Interesting that you should bring those up. The UN says that the land inside those borders is Palestine.

LINK ? and it must say the nation or state of palestine and not the mandate of palestine ..............

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You keep dredging up this old argument, as if it has been discussed ten dozen times.

What was Israel's defined territory? Is there any definition or map of this territory?

(COMMENT)

On the 15 MAY 1952, the Provisional Government of Israel filed a message in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence, making a Declaratory Statement of Independence with the boundaries as outlined in Part 2 - Boundaries. The Arab League launch 5 Armies simultaneously towards the new State of Israel, violating Chapter I of the UN Charter; constituting acts of aggression and the inappropriate use of actual force on the territorial integrity of Israel.

How did Israel legally acquire its defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.

Why does every map of Israel use the 1949 armistice lines (that are specifically not the be political or territorial boundaries?) Why don't they use the borders of Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

Actually, thee international community, less the Arab League, use the International Boundaries that are actually maintained by the Peace Treaties with Jordan and Egypt. The countries of Syria and Lebanon, still maintaining the Three-No's Doctrine, still use Armistice Lines as temporary boundaries, as is done elsewhere in the world.

Without clear answers to the above, the Palestinians had every right to declare independence in all of Palestine as defined by its international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All-Palestine Government does not exist. It's invalid 1948 claim dissolved with APG. It was dissolved back in 1959. It was not until 1988 that the PLO Declared Independence and it is generally recognized by the UN as the territory occupied since 1967.

Part of being a defined border is that you must be able to articulate it on the ground and actually control the boundary.

Normally, boundaries are established by some agreement (not always). The Palestinians have no agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. However Israel does and has internationally recognized boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel seized control of territory while in hot pursuit of the Arab League forces retreated.​

Seizing territory by military force is illegal.

Israel seized Palestinian land in a war with Palestine's neighbors?

Can you show where that is legal?

Now it is but in 1949 it was still legal to do so, and according to islamionazi thinking it still s today when done by muslims.

It was mandate of palestine land granted to the Jews as their National Home under INTERNATIONAL LAW the arab muslims had arab palestine for their use.


Under International laws in existence in 1949