Reason and Experience tell us that there is Evidence for a Creator

[Czernobog]

That's an awfully vague response. What good, and which morals, and virtues are you referring to, specifically?

Do you hold religion to be harmful?

No. I hold religious adherents to be harmful. However, i do recognise religion as an unhealthy influence. Just as I recognise Communism to be an unhealthy ideology, however, I hold Stalin solely responsible for the political enemies that he killed, or imprisoned. People do what people do. However belief systems, whether theological, or ideological, influence the way people think, and behave. It's the recognition that every action has a motive, and an influence.

So then you don't see anything good that has come from religion or its adherents of religion, but you do see lots of bad that has come from religion and its adherents of religion. Religion is not an entity that can do good or evil. That is done by those who practice and follow that religion.

You are, again, misrepresenting my position. I never claimed that religion was an entity, capable of motivation. It is a belief system, which can, and does, influence the mindset of its adherents. That mindset, in turn, determines how those adherents will act.

Are you seriously telling me that your religion has no influence on your actions, or choices? Really???

Of course my faith influences me. Are you seriously saying that you don't find religion to be harmful? A simple yes or no will do.

I think I made it pretty clear that I think religion is a harmful influence. You, however, keep wanting to twist that into "You blame religion for the actions of men", which I have never once said. That is your misrepresentation of my position. I blame men for allowing themselves to foolishly acquiesce to a harmful influence.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

 

[ding]

Do you hold religion to be harmful?

No. I hold religious adherents to be harmful. However, i do recognise religion as an unhealthy influence. Just as I recognise Communism to be an unhealthy ideology, however, I hold Stalin solely responsible for the political enemies that he killed, or imprisoned. People do what people do. However belief systems, whether theological, or ideological, influence the way people think, and behave. It's the recognition that every action has a motive, and an influence.

So then you don't see anything good that has come from religion or its adherents of religion, but you do see lots of bad that has come from religion and its adherents of religion. Religion is not an entity that can do good or evil. That is done by those who practice and follow that religion.

You are, again, misrepresenting my position. I never claimed that religion was an entity, capable of motivation. It is a belief system, which can, and does, influence the mindset of its adherents. That mindset, in turn, determines how those adherents will act.

Are you seriously telling me that your religion has no influence on your actions, or choices? Really???

Of course my faith influences me. Are you seriously saying that you don't find religion to be harmful? A simple yes or no will do.

I think I made it pretty clear that I think religion is a harmful influence. You, however, keep wanting to twist that into "You blame religion for the actions of men", which I have never once said. That is your misrepresentation of my position. I blame men for allowing themselves to foolishly acquiesce to a harmful influence.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Ok, so you believe religion is a harmful influence. Thanks.

Do you believe that religion has never had a positive or good influence?

 

[Czernobog]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

 

[Czernobog]

No. I hold religious adherents to be harmful. However, i do recognise religion as an unhealthy influence. Just as I recognise Communism to be an unhealthy ideology, however, I hold Stalin solely responsible for the political enemies that he killed, or imprisoned. People do what people do. However belief systems, whether theological, or ideological, influence the way people think, and behave. It's the recognition that every action has a motive, and an influence.

So then you don't see anything good that has come from religion or its adherents of religion, but you do see lots of bad that has come from religion and its adherents of religion. Religion is not an entity that can do good or evil. That is done by those who practice and follow that religion.

You are, again, misrepresenting my position. I never claimed that religion was an entity, capable of motivation. It is a belief system, which can, and does, influence the mindset of its adherents. That mindset, in turn, determines how those adherents will act.

Are you seriously telling me that your religion has no influence on your actions, or choices? Really???

Of course my faith influences me. Are you seriously saying that you don't find religion to be harmful? A simple yes or no will do.

I think I made it pretty clear that I think religion is a harmful influence. You, however, keep wanting to twist that into "You blame religion for the actions of men", which I have never once said. That is your misrepresentation of my position. I blame men for allowing themselves to foolishly acquiesce to a harmful influence.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Ok, so you believe religion is a harmful influence. Thanks.

Do you believe that religion has never had a positive or good influence?

Never? No. Does the good outweigh the harmful? No.

 

[ding]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

I believe the point I was making here was that we can attribute Christian values as a foundation of Western Civilization. Therefore, we can include the good and the bad from Western Civilization in the analysis of whether or not Christianity has been a net force for good or a net force for bad.

 

[ding]

So then you don't see anything good that has come from religion or its adherents of religion, but you do see lots of bad that has come from religion and its adherents of religion. Religion is not an entity that can do good or evil. That is done by those who practice and follow that religion.

You are, again, misrepresenting my position. I never claimed that religion was an entity, capable of motivation. It is a belief system, which can, and does, influence the mindset of its adherents. That mindset, in turn, determines how those adherents will act.

Are you seriously telling me that your religion has no influence on your actions, or choices? Really???

Of course my faith influences me. Are you seriously saying that you don't find religion to be harmful? A simple yes or no will do.

I think I made it pretty clear that I think religion is a harmful influence. You, however, keep wanting to twist that into "You blame religion for the actions of men", which I have never once said. That is your misrepresentation of my position. I blame men for allowing themselves to foolishly acquiesce to a harmful influence.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Ok, so you believe religion is a harmful influence. Thanks.

Do you believe that religion has never had a positive or good influence?

Never? No. Does the good outweigh the harmful? No.

I see. So how exactly did you weigh that evidence? You have gone into very specific detail about the bad, but you have not said anything about the good. What good did you find?

 

[Czernobog]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

 

[ding]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

I don't need to address those points because I am not arguing on behalf of religion. I am trying to understand the basis for your belief that religion is a harmful influence.

 

[ding]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

While you are gathering your thoughts on what went into your equation of good or positive influences of religion, maybe you could answer a question for me.

Do you believe that religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed?

 

[sealybobo]

Reason and experience tell us that there is evidence for a Creator.

Yes it it easy to ponder how we got here and come to the conclusion that something greater than us put us here but every piece of evidence for this creator are stories made up. Some on purpose (cults) and some people truly believe they had an experience.

There may be a creator and if he does care you better be good for goodness sake.

Do I think belief would matter to this creator? No. That religion bs.

I think it's important people be open to the possibility there might not be a God. Otherwise that person talks about God as if it's a fact when it is not.

God can't even qualify as a theory. At least not a scientific one. So while reason and experience might tell you one thing evidence says another

 

[Czernobog]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

I don't need to address those points because I am not arguing on behalf of religion. I am trying to understand the basis for your belief that religion is a harmful influence.

So, you don't even feel the need to read what I wrote. Then we have nothing ore to discuss. You really should examine your own biases.

 

[Czernobog]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

While you are gathering your thoughts on what went into your equation of good or positive influences of religion, maybe you could answer a question for me.

Do you believe that religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed?

Nope. I will not answer any further biased questions from you. You clearly do not wish to have an honest discussion. You just want to be praised for your cleverness. I will not help you do that.

 

[ding]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

I don't need to address those points because I am not arguing on behalf of religion. I am trying to understand the basis for your belief that religion is a harmful influence.

So, you don't even feel the need to read what I wrote. Then we have nothing ore to discuss. You really should examine your own biases.

I read it. I didn't see a reason to argue it. After all this is about your objectivity. I can't force you to be objective. If you want to claim that there was little positive influence from religion, that is your mistake to make. I merely provided this excerpt to prove to you the influence religion has had on Western Civilization.

 

[ding]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

While you are gathering your thoughts on what went into your equation of good or positive influences of religion, maybe you could answer a question for me.

Do you believe that religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed?

Nope. I will not answer any further biased questions from you. You clearly do not wish to have an honest discussion. You just want to be praised for your cleverness. I will not help you do that.

I guess I don't blame you for not wanting to speak out loud your beliefs as they are rather controversial and damning.

 

[sealybobo]

"The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Christian Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western world as well as throughout other third-world nations. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[3][4] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[5] infanticide and polygamy.[6] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[7] While official Church teaching[8] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[9] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

Some of the things that Christianity is commonly criticized for include the oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and to end slavery as an institution. The criticism of Christianity has come from the various religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians."

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

While you are gathering your thoughts on what went into your equation of good or positive influences of religion, maybe you could answer a question for me.

Do you believe that religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed?

Nope. I will not answer any further biased questions from you. You clearly do not wish to have an honest discussion. You just want to be praised for your cleverness. I will not help you do that.

Does ding acknowledge any of the points we make?

Is ding trying to convince us or ding?

This is seriously a person who's questioning if there is a creator. Come on ding. Make the leap. You can do it!

Remember, even if there is a "creator" it doesn't care and never visits

 

[ding]

Reason and experience tell us that there is evidence for a Creator.

Yes it it easy to ponder how we got here and come to the conclusion that something greater than us put us here but every piece of evidence for this creator are stories made up. Some on purpose (cults) and some people truly believe they had an experience.

There may be a creator and if he does care you better be good for goodness sake.

Do I think belief would matter to this creator? No. That religion bs.

I think it's important people be open to the possibility there might not be a God. Otherwise that person talks about God as if it's a fact when it is not.

God can't even qualify as a theory. At least not a scientific one. So while reason and experience might tell you one thing evidence says another

Ok, so if there were a creator why don't you believe he cares?

 

[sealybobo]

You get that both Easter, and Christmas are pagan holidays that Christianity usurped, right? As is Halloween. I'm not sure that should be used as a positive influence. Basically Christian theocrats criminalised, and persecuted non-christian religions out of existence. yeah...that was positive. As for art, culture, and philosophy, you should ask Miguel de Cervantes whether he thinks that Christianity was a positive influence on art. The Church used art as propaganda. Nothing more. Just as Hitler commissioned art, in the form of posters, to create propaganda. So, unless you want to suggeswt that Hitler inspired art, your claim is not really accurate. As to culture, and philospohy, I think many imprisoned philosophers during the middle ages, who were imprisoned for their "heretical" ideas would also disagree with that claim.

I find it interesting that da Vinci, and Raphael were included in those great artists that Christianity was responsible for, as both were repeatedly censured, and, in the case of Da Vinci, imprisoned for the very art that they created. It should also be pointed out that while, yes, the Church did create universities, and colleges, it should be noted that they were not the cathedrals of learning, and advances that the article seems to be implying. Copernicus, Keppler, Cecco, among many others were imprisoned, and worse for putting forth scientific theories that conflicted with Church teaching. so, again, trying to portray medieval
Christianity as a supporting influence of learning is more than a little disingenuous.

Again, 'strongly influenced' is not the same as "positively influenced". I won't get into the question of abortion, as I suspect we would have very different opinions on that topic, so let's just agree to leave that one alone, shall we? However, condemning birth control? Really? As far as marital infidelity, or incest, I would submit that Christianity was not necessary for those condemnations. Moving back to the present, I am clearly not a Christian, and I think marital infidelity, and incest is a bad idea. However, I would also submit that The Church didn't have quite as much influence there, as one might think. Want evidence of that? Look at the family lineages of nobility in almost any nation in Europe. Purity of the lineage seems to have been much more important than any ickiness of incest. And men, particularly among the nobility, were quite unfaithful. They were often ******* more than their wives. Hell, in Scotland, the nobility even enjoyed what was known as primae noctis - the right of a Lord to **** your wife, on the first night of your wedding. Yes, that was actually a thing, and it was quite common. So, yeah, not real sure how influential Christianity was in preventing either infidelity, or incest. On the other hand, I would agree that Christianity did have some positive influence on social justice during the medieval period.

How adorable that the article does briefly mention that, yeah, the Church has done some bad stuff, too. In conclussion, yes, the article you cut and pasted has demonstrated a few positive influences Christianity has had on Western Civilisation. However, because of its clear bias, it gave Christianity credit for having positive influences that were clearly not positive, and it glossed over the negative influences from the same period. So, would I conclude that the positive outweighed the bad? Not based on this article.

I also find it amusing that when I asked you to list some of the positive influences that Christianity has had, you were, ultimately, incapable of doing so, and had to go look up a rather biased Wikipedia article to do it for you, while I was able, on my own, with my own intellect, scholarship, and experience able to rattle off numerous examples of Christian atrocities. Rather says a lot about your ability of independent, original critical thinking.

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

I don't need to address those points because I am not arguing on behalf of religion. I am trying to understand the basis for your belief that religion is a harmful influence.

So, you don't even feel the need to read what I wrote. Then we have nothing ore to discuss. You really should examine your own biases.

I read it. I didn't see a reason to argue it. After all this is about your objectivity. I can't force you to be objective. If you want to claim that there was little positive influence from religion, that is your mistake to make. I merely provided this excerpt to prove to you the influence religion has had on Western Civilization.

Of course religions offer a lot of positives. Like every other business it wouldn't exist if it didn't.

Like a drug it also has some negative side affects too. Like anal leakage. And seek help if you pray for over 4 hours.

 

[sealybobo]

Reason and experience tell us that there is evidence for a Creator.

Yes it it easy to ponder how we got here and come to the conclusion that something greater than us put us here but every piece of evidence for this creator are stories made up. Some on purpose (cults) and some people truly believe they had an experience.

There may be a creator and if he does care you better be good for goodness sake.

Do I think belief would matter to this creator? No. That religion bs.

I think it's important people be open to the possibility there might not be a God. Otherwise that person talks about God as if it's a fact when it is not.

God can't even qualify as a theory. At least not a scientific one. So while reason and experience might tell you one thing evidence says another

Ok, so if there were a creator why don't you believe he cares?

Cancer, Alzheimer's

 

[ding]

So then you are happy enough to assign the bad things which occurred in Western Civilization to Christians but not the good things. Are you sure you believe you are being objective?

Tell you what, when you can address each of my points, indicating that you actually read my post, just as I did, then you might have something of value to say.

I'll wait...

I don't need to address those points because I am not arguing on behalf of religion. I am trying to understand the basis for your belief that religion is a harmful influence.

So, you don't even feel the need to read what I wrote. Then we have nothing ore to discuss. You really should examine your own biases.

I read it. I didn't see a reason to argue it. After all this is about your objectivity. I can't force you to be objective. If you want to claim that there was little positive influence from religion, that is your mistake to make. I merely provided this excerpt to prove to you the influence religion has had on Western Civilization.

Of course religions offer a lot of positives. Like every other business it wouldn't exist if it didn't.

Like a drug it also has some negative side affects too. Like anal leakage. And seek help if you pray for over 4 hours.

I see. So do the positives outweigh the negatives?

 

[ding]

Reason and experience tell us that there is evidence for a Creator.

Yes it it easy to ponder how we got here and come to the conclusion that something greater than us put us here but every piece of evidence for this creator are stories made up. Some on purpose (cults) and some people truly believe they had an experience.

There may be a creator and if he does care you better be good for goodness sake.

Do I think belief would matter to this creator? No. That religion bs.

I think it's important people be open to the possibility there might not be a God. Otherwise that person talks about God as if it's a fact when it is not.

God can't even qualify as a theory. At least not a scientific one. So while reason and experience might tell you one thing evidence says another

Ok, so if there were a creator why don't you believe he cares?

Cancer, Alzheimer's

So, you believe everything would have to be perfect for their to be a creator? Let me ask you this. Do you have kids? Are you always perfect in everything you do with them? Does the fact that everything isn't always perfect somehow mean you love them less?