Reason #2 " two state solution" is doa !

[montelatici]

The establishment of Israel through the expulsion of most of the Christians and Muslims from what is now Israel, was a crime. Israel has had to create myths to deflect attention from the fact that the creation of Israel was only made possible through the ethnic cleansing of most of the Christians and Muslims. Hence, all the propaganda. Unfortunately, as time goes by, more and more unimpeachable source documentation leaks out and the myths that the Israelis have tried to make the world believe are shown to be just that, myths. These days only Americans, and a declining number, believe the myths. The rest of the world is not so easily fooled.

Why aren't the surrounding countries more willing to take in Palestinians rather than insisting on pushing them back onto a land which has belonged to the Jews since 1948?

Why would the surrounding countries become involved in the crime of ethnic cleansing?

The land does not belong to the Jews, the Jews are occupying land that belongs to the Christians and Muslims of Palestine. This is validated by UN Resolution 242 which states in part:

"1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

S/RES/242 (1967) of 22 November 1967

 

[RandomVariable]

The establishment of Israel through the expulsion of most of the Christians and Muslims from what is now Israel, was a crime. Israel has had to create myths to deflect attention from the fact that the creation of Israel was only made possible through the ethnic cleansing of most of the Christians and Muslims. Hence, all the propaganda. Unfortunately, as time goes by, more and more unimpeachable source documentation leaks out and the myths that the Israelis have tried to make the world believe are shown to be just that, myths. These days only Americans, and a declining number, believe the myths. The rest of the world is not so easily fooled.

Why aren't the surrounding countries more willing to take in Palestinians rather than insisting on pushing them back onto a land which has belonged to the Jews since 1948?

Why would the surrounding countries become involved in the crime of ethnic cleansing?

The land does not belong to the Jews, the Jews are occupying land that belongs to the Christians and Muslims of Palestine. This is validated by UN Resolution 242 which states in part:

"1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

S/RES/242 (1967) of 22 November 1967

That land belonged to the Ottoman empire and it should be given back this very second!!!

 

[montelatici]

Why aren't the surrounding countries more willing to take in Palestinians rather than insisting on pushing them back onto a land which has belonged to the Jews since 1948?

Because under international law refugees have a right to return to their own homes. Remember these were not participants in the conflict but refugees.

So for over 60 years these refugees suffer? The Arab nations have more than enough wealth to make the people perfectly happy live in peace and prosperity somewhere other than Israel. The only reason the Palestinians are suffering is because of the Arab nation's want for power and glory. And the Jewish and the Philistines could perfectly well live in harmony if it were not for those who feed on hate.

Why would Palestinians want to leave their land? I don't get it. Palestinians in the diaspora want to return, why would those in Palestine want to leave? It would be like recommending that the non-whites leave South Africa during Apartheid and go to the many black rules states in Africa.

 

[Phoenall]

Perhaps the most frequent claim in the popular list is the exhortation by the Arab leadership by radio urging their followers to flee:[31][33][35][38] "On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: “It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem.” This was also cited by Cooke and Kimche in the "Spectator Correspondence",[13] for example (Cooke): "In the United States, long before ever going to Israel, I had heard it emphasized over and over - by Israeli diplomats and visiting officials, in public speeches and in interviews — that the flight of Palestine Arabs was caused by (radio) broadcast (Arab leadership) orders. No other form of order was even mentioned.[36] Erkine Childers and Walid Khalidi therefore checked archived transcripts of all Arab radio services monitored by the BBC and CIA in 1948, and discovered,

[Childers, from his research into the BBC archives of radio traffic monitoring from Cyprus in 1948]: "[T]here was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948," and that to the contrary (Arab) broadcasts gave flat orders to civilians to stay put.

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I very much doubt if we could hear low power long wave radio transmissions in the UK from Palestine, it takes me all my time to hear them on the short wave bands and I have modern receivers and tuned antennas. And I take it that you are aware that the author is a PRO PALESTINIAN who is a member of WikiProject Palestine!

 

[Phoenall]

The establishment of Israel through the expulsion of most of the Christians and Muslims from what is now Israel, was a crime. Israel has had to create myths to deflect attention from the fact that the creation of Israel was only made possible through the ethnic cleansing of most of the Christians and Muslims. Hence, all the propaganda. Unfortunately, as time goes by, more and more unimpeachable source documentation leaks out and the myths that the Israelis have tried to make the world believe are shown to be just that, myths. These days only Americans, and a declining number, believe the myths. The rest of the world is not so easily fooled.

Was the attack by the massed armies of the arab league a myth then, were the orders given to force the Jews back into the sea a myth as well. Was the fact that arab muslims flocked to Palestine on the promise of work a myth, or the fact that under the ottomans the whole of Palestine barely had any arab muslims living there so they had to get the European Jews to migrate back. How about the commands from Mohamed to "KILL ALL THE JEWS" was that also a myth.

These days more people than ever are going against the Palestinians and the EU has stopped one of its aid packages to Palestine because of their terrorism.

 

[Phoenall]

There is no legitimacy for Israel's expansion to be found at the UN. Else you'd be able to link to it.

I gave your the details of why the settlements are legal, up to you to find details that dispute INTERNATIONAL LAW of right of return

The settlements are illegal under the Geneva Conventions 4th Protocal forbidding the transfer of popultions to territories occupied in war:

Tomorrow, the 12th of August, marks the fiftieth anniversary of the adoption of the Geneva Conventions and Protocols. These instruments provide the basis for humanitarian law and establish, in part, rules to protect civilians of occupied territories and ensure their proper treatment. Israel ratified these conventions and protocols in 1951.

Israel has continuously evaded its responsibility to implement the Fourth Geneva Convention, the convention that deals most comprehensively with the obligations of an occupying power toward civilians in occupied territory. Israel argues that the occupied territory was not under another nation's sovereign control, which it contends is a prerequisite to application of the Convention. Israel's position is disputed universally, even by Israel's close friend the United States. The International Committee of the Red Cross, the organization charged with overseeing implementation of the Convention, also opposes Israel's position.

Since 1967, Israel has systematically violated significant provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention. These violations have been directed against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including the territory of east Jerusalem annexed into Israel, and civilians in southern Lebanon.

The Israeli violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention include, in part, the following:

Systematic torture, in violation of articles 27, 31, 32, and 147.

Collective punishment, like demolition and sealing of houses and restrictions on movement, in violation of articles 33 and 53.

Prolonged closures that lead, for example, to loss of income from employment, without providing alternative sources of income for the residents, in violation of article 39.

Massive establishment of settlements of Israeli citizens in the occupied territory, in violation of articles 49 and 53.

Detention and imprisonment of residents of the occupied territory in prison facilities located within Israel, in violation of article 76.

Administrative detention of thousands of Palestinians for prolonged periods, grossly exceeding the provisions of article 78, in violation of article 49.

Revocation of residency rights in the occupied territory comprising East Jerusalem, in violation of article 47.

Expropriation and exploitation of the natural resources existing in the occupied territory to meet the needs of the occupying power, in violation of article 55.

B'Tselem cautions against further attempts by Israel and the Palestinian Authority to use provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention as bargaining chips during the peace process. According to the Convention, neither Israel nor the PA, as representative of the local, protected population, has any right to agree to any act that is not in full compliance with the Convention. Neither Israel nor the PA has any right to sacrifice human rights in the name of achieving peace.

On its part, B'Tselem will continue its fight to ensure strict compliance with all the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention and protect human rights in the Occupied Territories.


The 50th Anniversary Of the Geneva Conventions | B'Tselem

More ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATRED links in support of ANTI SEMITISM and JEW HATRED. Now try an unbiased source like the UN

 

[montelatici]

B'Tselem is antisemitic? B’Tselem is a word in Hebrew. Most of the B’Tselem members are Jews and Israelis.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

B'Tselem is antisemitic? B’Tselem is a word in Hebrew. Most of the B’Tselem members are Jews and Israelis.

Hashem made man in His image (image=B'Tselem).

 

[Auldhippy]

BTSelem is a shining light in Judaism espousing the very values Jews and many Gentiles should aspire to.

 

[Anathema]

There was no UN charter during WW2, there is now and Israel is signed up to it, This means that war,, no matter who starts it or who wins it, is not a legitimate means of land acquisition, it means that refugees who took no part in the conflict are entitled to return to their homes,

The occupation is illegal under the uN charter and under the Geneva Conventions 4th Protocal, which Israel are also signed up to, the transfer of populations to land occupied in war is expressly forbidden,

Which is why ANY State (Israel and the US included) that a member of the United Nations, or a party to any of its agreements is a nation of, and lead by, idiots.

 

[aris2chat]

Why the Palestinians Refuse to Recognize Israel as a Jewish State

The real reason for their refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish country, however, is that the rais [chief], President Mahmoud Abbas, the man who claims to be the leader of the Palestinian people, has never abandoned the demand for the return of the Palestinians to "Palestine," that is, the entire State of Israel, so that it might be destroyed.

You expect people who have been expelled from their land and homes to agree that they acknowledge that they agree with having been robbed and expelled? Would you ask the Tibetans to announce that Tibet is Chinese or during Apartheid the blacks in South Africa to acknowledge that white-ruled South Africa was a Boer state.

Problem with your analogy is that the jews lived there before the arabs and the immigration is just a return to their original land, both racial and religious.
The jews are the tibetans and the arabs the chinese.

 

[Auldhippy]

That's just nonsense, the Palestinians are the descendants of biblical Israel and before Zionism Jews too were Arab.

 

[aris2chat]

B'Tselem is antisemitic? B’Tselem is a word in Hebrew. Most of the B’Tselem members are Jews and Israelis.

In the image the palestinians want to be seen. It has it's own agenda and is not unbias.

 

[RoccoR]

Anathema, Auldhippy, et al,

The both of you are caught-up is a rather simplistic view of the debate.

There was no UN charter during WW2, there is now and Israel is signed up to it, This means that war,, no matter who starts it or who wins it, is not a legitimate means of land acquisition, it means that refugees who took no part in the conflict are entitled to return to their homes,

The occupation is illegal under the uN charter and under the Geneva Conventions 4th Protocal, which Israel are also signed up to, the transfer of populations to land occupied in war is expressly forbidden,

Which is why ANY State (Israel and the US included) that a member of the United Nations, or a party to any of its agreements is a nation of, and lead by, idiots.

(COMMENT)

Nothing in the UN Charter prohibits the actual occupation of territory. And the interpretation given to the law of acquisition is incorrect.

What the international law says - and - when did it say it?:

Article 5

1. No consideration of whatever nature, whether political, economic, military or otherwise, may serve as a justification for aggression.
2. A war of aggression is a crime against international peace. Aggression gives rise to international responsibility.
3. No territorial acquisition or special advantage resulting from aggression is or shall be recognized as lawful.​

SOURCE: A/RES/3314(XXIX) 14 December 1974

Principle of Law under discussion from the Declaration of Principles adopted, noted that:

The territory of a State shall not be the object of military occupation resulting from the use of force in contravention of the provisions of the Charter. The territory of a State shall not be the object of acquisition by another State resulting from the threat or use of force. No territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as affecting:

• Provisions of the Charter or any international agreement prior to the Charter regime and valid under international law; or
• The powers of the Security Council under the Charter.

SOURCE: A/RES/25/2625 24 October 1970

At the time of the Security Council passage of Resolution 242 (1967) neither of the two Resolutions cited above were active; having not been created (1974 and 1970 respectively) come 3 to 7 years later and cannot be retroactively applied. (You cannot created a law today that makes something you did lawfully yesterday - illegal after the fact.)

Secondly, nothing done in the 1967 War had anything to do with the indigenous Palestinians as --- Palestinians. It was a Chapter VII Self-Defense Action over, initially, violations of the Israeli-Egyptian Armistice and the Israeli-Jordanian Armistice.

The 1949 Armistice Agreements, on which the "Lines" were based, --- were and arrangement between:

• HASHEMITE JORDAN KINGDOM - ISRAEL: GENERAL ARMISTICE AGREEMENT S/1302/Rev.1 3 April 1949
  • SUPERSEDED BY: Treaty of Peace between the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the State of Israel A/50/73 S/1995/83 27 January 1995

• EGYPTIAN-ISRAELI GENERAL ARMISTICE AGREEMENT S/1264/Corr.1 23 February 1949
  • SUPERSEDED BY: Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel Camp David 26 March 1979

At the time of the 1967 War, neither the Gaza Strip (GS) or the West Bank (WB) were under any form of autonomous Palestinian control. The WB had been annexed by the Jordanians in 1950 - and - the GS was under total Egyptian Occupation. The Armistice Arrangements made between the Israelis and Egyptians - dissolved the 1949 Armistice Lines around the GS and replaced them with a "permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel" (see Article II). The Armistice Arrangements made between the Israelis and Jordanians - dissolved the 1949 Armistice Lines around the GS and replaced them with a "permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan," (see Article III).

In 1967, Israel did not overrun and occupy Palestinian territory (oPt), it occupied Egyptian and Jordanian territories. The GS and WB only became Palestinian in 1988, when the Palestine Liberation Organization (the sole representative of the Palestinian people) declared independence, without Israeli objection; exercising their right of self-determination while under Israeli occupation.

(SETTLEMENTS)

The Armistice Lines were agreed upon by the parties in conflict. Relative to the Gaza Strip, the parties were Israel and Egypt. Relative to the West Bank, the parties were Israel and Jordan. And ceasefire arrangements culminated into Armistice Agreements:

• EGYPTIAN-ISRAELI GENERAL ARMISTICE AGREEMENT A/43/827 S/20278 DONE at Rhodes, Island of Rhodes, Greece, on the twenty-fourth of February nineteen forty-nine; in the presence of the United Nations Acting Mediator on Palestine and the United Nations Chief of Staff of the Truce Supervision Organization.

• HASHEMITE JORDAN KINGDOM - ISRAEL: GENERAL ARMISTICE AGREEMENT S/1353 20 July 1949 DONE at Hill 232 near MAHANAYIM on the 20th July 1949, in the presence of the Personal Deputy of the United Nations Acting Mediator on Palestine and the United Nations Chief of Staff of the Truce Supervision Organization.

The importance if this cannot be over emphasized. Both Armistice Agreements, having been orchestrated by the same influence of Truce Supervision Organization, use the same format and language:

The important phrase is behind the meaning of: "establishment of an Armistice in order to eliminate the threat to the peace in Palestine and to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved."

THUS: The Armistice Arrangement is no longer "in force" once a peaceful settlement is achieved (Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979 - and the - State of Israel and the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, 26 October 1994). Remembering that there was no Armistice signed with the Palestinians (not a party to the conflict and not a state able to enter into agreement under the Treaty Law Convention), the Armistice Lines between were dissolved by the agreement and were replaced by international boundaries stipulated permanent peace agreements in:

So, the next question is: What holds the boundaries we commonly refer to as the 1949 Armistice Line between Israel and Palestine? That would be the "Oslo Accords" the basic framework document and interim agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. Because the 1949 Armistice Lines applied to Israel with Egypt and Jordan; and not the Palestinian as a concerned party. The Palestinians were not party to the Agreements.

This has to do with the establishment of Settlements in the West Bank under the assumption that the territory is "occupied." One view is:

• If the Oslo Accords apply, then the Settlements as under Oslo II stipulations and subject to the permanent status of negotiations.
• If the Oslo Accords do not apply, then the Territory of the West Bank is on the Israeli side of the Israeli-Jordanian International Borders as stipulated by Treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Well then, you have confirmed that Israel's only course of action is continued occupation or annexation given that mutually acceptable terms cannot be achieved and the international community, at the moment, is not prepared to place sanctions on Israel that might provide incentives for compromise.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Annexation is probably not in the best interest of the Israel.

Well then, you have confirmed that Israel's only course of action is continued occupation or annexation given that mutually acceptable terms cannot be achieved and the international community, at the moment, is not prepared to place sanctions on Israel that might provide incentives for compromise.

(COMMENT)

There is no national level program (nation building or technological development) in the Middle East were a belligerent or hostile indigenous population has been turned around to become tranquil, prosperous, and either agriculturally or industrially success in a positive and productive outcome, by an external political influence. Attempting to annex or place in trusteeship the West Bank or Gaza Strip would be an economic black hole.

The Arab Palestinian State has some great potential opportunities and possibilities in the arena of mass desalinization and land irrigation, as well as in the off-shore gas and oil prospects.

But these will never get off the ground given the level of internal corruption and skimming by HAMAS and Fatah (including criminal associates), as well as the animosity between the Hostile Arab Palestinians and the Israel.

Simply put, not a good idea. No reasonable expectation of success given the nature of the historical record of the people.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JakeStarkey]

montelatici and auldhippy:

Quit blowing kids up and talks can be serious.

If you continue as you have been and are doing now, the end is inevitable: Israeli Palestinians who are security threats and their families will be thrust forth from Greater Israel beyond the Jordan.

Israel, with its smart weaponry has murdered TEN TIMES the number of children than the Palestinians can manage with their indiscriminate weaponry.

Statistics | B'Tselem

Please take the time to drill down the statistics, they detail each death, their age and what they were doing when murdered.

Stop the killing, and the Israelis will as well.

You can't win, period. Thus, you must compromise or lose all.

 

[montelatici]

montelatici and auldhippy:

Quit blowing kids up and talks can be serious.

If you continue as you have been and are doing now, the end is inevitable: Israeli Palestinians who are security threats and their families will be thrust forth from Greater Israel beyond the Jordan.

Israel, with its smart weaponry has murdered TEN TIMES the number of children than the Palestinians can manage with their indiscriminate weaponry.

Statistics | B'Tselem

Please take the time to drill down the statistics, they detail each death, their age and what they were doing when murdered.

Stop the killing, and the Israelis will as well.

You can't win, period. Thus, you must compromise or lose all.

What more can they possibly lose?

 

[Indeependent]

Israel, with its smart weaponry has murdered TEN TIMES the number of children than the Palestinians can manage with their indiscriminate weaponry.

Statistics | B'Tselem

Please take the time to drill down the statistics, they detail each death, their age and what they were doing when murdered.

Stop the killing, and the Israelis will as well.

You can't win, period. Thus, you must compromise or lose all.

What more can they possibly lose?

Their lives; but that fact seems to endlessly annoy you, which will result in another cycle of complaining about the Jews who don't go around blowing up people who aren't trying to blow them up first.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Israel, with its smart weaponry has murdered TEN TIMES the number of children than the Palestinians can manage with their indiscriminate weaponry.

Statistics | B'Tselem

Please take the time to drill down the statistics, they detail each death, their age and what they were doing when murdered.

Stop the killing, and the Israelis will as well.

You can't win, period. Thus, you must compromise or lose all.

What more can they possibly lose?

They all have found a life outside of Israel and will continue to do so.

On this issue, America is the key, and the great number of American citizens support Israel and do not care at all whatever the UN says.