Re-Evaluating Newt..

[JoeB131]

Again, sounds like a great idea.. Except to liberals who worry about losing their ATM at the SIEU.

My opinion is that public service unions shouldn't exist. I can see the need for one in the private sector, because those guys will rip you off given the oppurtunity. A public official works for all of us, and collectively, we can decide what is a fair wage.

A Janitor making 100K and more than a teacher is a system that has gone seriously wrong.

 

[Toro]

Again, sounds like a great idea.. Except to liberals who worry about losing their ATM at the SIEU.

My opinion is that public service unions shouldn't exist. I can see the need for one in the private sector, because those guys will rip you off given the oppurtunity. A public official works for all of us, and collectively, we can decide what is a fair wage.

A Janitor making 100K and more than a teacher is a system that has gone seriously wrong.

Once again, you are deflecting to another issue. I don't think a janitor should make more than a teacher either, but that's not the issue.

But it's also good to see you show your anti-capitalist credentials once again.

"We need unions in the private sector because the business owner will rip you off at every opportunity!"



Outstanding.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, sounds like a great idea.. Except to liberals who worry about losing their ATM at the SIEU.

My opinion is that public service unions shouldn't exist. I can see the need for one in the private sector, because those guys will rip you off given the oppurtunity. A public official works for all of us, and collectively, we can decide what is a fair wage.

A Janitor making 100K and more than a teacher is a system that has gone seriously wrong.

Once again, you are deflecting to another issue. I don't think a janitor should make more than a teacher either, but that's not the issue.

But it's also good to see you show your anti-capitalist credentials once again.

"We need unions in the private sector because the business owner will rip you off at every opportunity!"

Hey, guy, I'm a realist. When this recession hit, the first thing the corporations did was say, "Gee, how can we bring down wages? I know, fire a bunch of people. And everyone else will be happy with lower wages!"

The good thing about the Union movement is that it established a middle class. A middle class did not evolve because the plutocrats were feeling generous.

And you guys stopped being capitalists when you took your first bailout.

 

[Toro]

Again, sounds like a great idea.. Except to liberals who worry about losing their ATM at the SIEU.

My opinion is that public service unions shouldn't exist. I can see the need for one in the private sector, because those guys will rip you off given the oppurtunity. A public official works for all of us, and collectively, we can decide what is a fair wage.

A Janitor making 100K and more than a teacher is a system that has gone seriously wrong.

Once again, you are deflecting to another issue. I don't think a janitor should make more than a teacher either, but that's not the issue.

But it's also good to see you show your anti-capitalist credentials once again.

"We need unions in the private sector because the business owner will rip you off at every opportunity!"

Hey, guy, I'm a realist. When this recession hit, the first thing the corporations did was say, "Gee, how can we bring down wages? I know, fire a bunch of people. And everyone else will be happy with lower wages!"

The good thing about the Union movement is that it established a middle class. A middle class did not evolve because the plutocrats were feeling generous.

And you guys stopped being capitalists when you took your first bailout.

Corporations always fire people when there is a recession. And I'm agnostic on unions. But corporations are the greatest creators of jobs and are repositories of wealth. Being inherently hostile to companies and assuming they screw workers at every turn is hardly a core Republican value I would have thought.

 

[JoeB131]

Corporations always fire people when there is a recession. And I'm agnostic on unions. But corporations are the greatest creators of jobs and are repositories of wealth. Being inherently hostile to companies and assuming they screw workers at every turn is hardly a core Republican value I would have thought.

Well, maybe it's a different Republican Party now...

Which is why your weird Mormon Robot isn't gaining any traction. I think the problem is that much like the French Nobility of 1787, Corporatists have blown it. They forgot their obligations to the country and to the society, which is why the GOP is becoming anti-corporate at some level.

Sarah Palin can talk about "Crony Capitalism" and get huge applause.

I also think the idea of firing people during a recession is often self-defeating. Because if everyone does it, sales drop faster and further, and recovery is longer.

We had three recessions in the 1950's. But they were shallow and short? Why? Because the private workforce was largely unionized and a "layoff" meant you had to call those guys back first. There was no "lay off" and then we'll hire some hungry waif who will work for less.

On the flip side, Unions in those days did not feel the need to defend drunk workers, lazy workers or workers who were stealing from the company.

Well, love to keep talking to you, but I have to go out and work at my soulless corporate job now. Toodles.

 

[JakeStarkey]

But if your goal is, "Heck, I'm just gonna get the government job, scratch my balls and drink coffee until 10 PM, and I'll get paid more than a teacher" that's nuts. That's totally senidng the wrong message.

You only exhibit your ignorance and hate to those of us who have worked in the public sector.

Pity.

Although it is commonly assumed teachers' wages top the salaries of custodians, an NBC New York analysis of public payrolls shows many custodians make more money than even the highest paid city teachers.

Which is something conservatives should agree with, given their contempt for teachers.

Also, check the income nation-wide for both professions, you’ll find the cited example the rare exception.

Fact is, most of these people would never make it in the private sector. It's almost like we have two separate work ethics...

You have just revealed that you are ignorant and stupid. What a silly statement. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is not fact.

 

[candycorn]

Yes, some would call capitalism "treason." Extremist leftists would.

No, I would call aiding and abetting enemy regimes as treason...

But, it's hard for a man to understand a problem when his paycheck is dependent on him not understanding it.

It's a good thing you don't get paid for understanding this because you don't.

If you did get paid, we could fire you and hire some high school kid for free. At least we know the product from the high school kid couldn't possibly be any worse.

Joe is one of a kind (thank goodness).

 

[candycorn]

Actually, I want positive and negative re-inforcement.

You libs are the ones who want to get rid of scorekeeping and give everyone a trophy for "participating". And get rid of dodgeball.

Honestly, I don't think that hiring kids would save money one way or the other. Never made THAT argument. My argument was that instead of having lazy government workers, we teach the kids the virtues of work.

If you fire people to teach a lesson to kids, you are teaching them that the reward for the value of work is that you will be fired!

Only the worthless ball-scratchers.

That wasn't Newt's argument. Newt said fire all of the janitors.

“Most of these schools ought to get rid of the unionized janitors, have one master janitor and pay local students to take care of the school,”

Gingrich calls child labor laws ‘truly stupid’ - Election 2012 - The Washington Post

I will give Newt the benefit of the doubt on this one. It was a singularly stupid comment to make but I think his overall point was that kids should be subjected to work and there is nothing wrong with it. He gave a hairbrained example that boggles the mind for it's ratio of words to nonsense but I think his point was superior to his example.

That having been said, I don't see anything wrong with kids having afterschool jobs. I wish we'd bring back programs that were in schools when I was going, Auto Body, DECA, HOCT, Auto Mechanics, A/C Repair, Office education. College isn't for everybody; hell, many that think that they are college material should reconsider in my view. Bring back vocational education; the trades. There is nothing wrong with your child being a lawyer nor is there anything wrong with your child being a plumber, a journeyman electrician, or a painter.

I think Newt's point was that we need to expand downward in some cases because we're losing the grip on the trades in this country. His brain-dead example was just that brain dead.

I sincerely hope he didn't mean literally what he said but lets hear him out on this one.

As a sidebar, can the board tell me if there are vocational education classes in high schools in your area? In my old school, the VOCT building is now a parking lot. Too bad.

 

[mudwhistle]

Actually, I want positive and negative re-inforcement.

You libs are the ones who want to get rid of scorekeeping and give everyone a trophy for "participating". And get rid of dodgeball.

Honestly, I don't think that hiring kids would save money one way or the other. Never made THAT argument. My argument was that instead of having lazy government workers, we teach the kids the virtues of work.

If you fire people to teach a lesson to kids, you are teaching them that the reward for the value of work is that you will be fired!

Only the worthless ball-scratchers.

That wasn't Newt's argument. Newt said fire all of the janitors.

“Most of these schools ought to get rid of the unionized janitors, have one master janitor and pay local students to take care of the school,”

Gingrich calls child labor laws ‘truly stupid’ - Election 2012 - The Washington Post

I will give Newt the benefit of the doubt on this one. It was a singularly stupid comment to make but I think his overall point was that kids should be subjected to work and there is nothing wrong with it. He gave a hairbrained example that boggles the mind for it's ratio of words to nonsense but I think his point was superior to his example.

That having been said, I don't see anything wrong with kids having afterschool jobs. I wish we'd bring back programs that were in schools when I was going, Auto Body, DECA, HOCT, Auto Mechanics, A/C Repair, Office education. College isn't for everybody; hell, many that think that they are college material should reconsider in my view. Bring back vocational education; the trades. There is nothing wrong with your child being a lawyer nor is there anything wrong with your child being a plumber, a journeyman electrician, or a painter.

I think Newt's point was that we need to expand downward in some cases because we're losing the grip on the trades in this country. His brain-dead example was just that brain dead.

I sincerely hope he didn't mean literally what he said but lets hear him out on this one.

As a sidebar, can the board tell me if there are vocational education classes in high schools in your area? In my old school, the VOCT building is now a parking lot. Too bad.

School does not prepare you for a job.

I remember when Cosby caught hell for being less than PC.

He may be a lib but at least he's a realist. So is Newt.

 

[Foxfyre]

One of the most permanently unemployable demographics in the country are youth in inner city schools, and most of those schools are falling apart because the union janitors don't think it is their job to maintain them. I can't think of a more beneficial program than to hire a master maintenance person who could train the kids in carpentry, simple electrical maintenance, routine plumbing, show them how to repair a banister or efficiently paint a hallway, change a filter in a furnace, put a shine on a floor, and, once they've mastered a skill, pay them minimum wage to do it. Kids involved in maintaining their school are more likely to take care of it and actually take pride in it. Kids making money doing something constructive, useful, and helping them acquire marketable skills are less likely to be out raising hell with a gang or wasting their time playing mindless video games or watching TV. Make attending classes and achieving a passing grade a requisite for the extra curricular maintenance activity.

I don't think Newt was brain dead at all when he saw the possibilities in that. He is a visionary and not a 'learn by rote' person.

My university was mostly maintained by student labor. It helped keep tuition, fees, and costs of books at maneagable levels and all the buildings and grounds looked good at all times.

 

[SAT2]

That is what Newt is advocating. Get RID of janitors in schools, and HIRE poor kids. Get rid of = fire.

Right.

Newt said we should fire all the janitors and hire kids.

Instead of firing the working stiff, Newt should give his entire salary to fund a program which hires kids to sweep the streets.

So if the kids can do the job the janitor is doing, why not use the kids who want to do it? I worked my way through college in part working for the university I attended doing any work that was available. By utilizing as much student labor as possible, the university was able to keep tuition, books, and fees affordable for the student.

You have a problem with that?

I have a problem with you continuing to pretend, or out and out lie, that this discussion is about kids over 16.

You are just being dishonest.

Yup. If you ain't doing the job, if you are scratching your balls and drinking coffee until 10 AM, and if you think that you can be a slackoff because you belong to a union, then you should be fired. And it will be a very good object lesson to young kids.

Hard workers stay.

Slackoffs get fired.

Except this has nothing to do with what Newt actually said. It's what you wish he had said, and you apparently wish it so much that you have gone into a delusional state.

[
That's what this is really all about, isn't it? I mean it isn't like you liberals are really concerned about kids working. The schools send them out every year to sell candy to support the school despite the generous amounts our money they take in taxes to pay for those bloated union benefits.

So they aren't really worried about the kid's safety. They are probalby safer moping a floor than walking a neighborhood selling candy to strangers.

And you blame the need for school fundraisers on Democrats and liberals? You need to think this one through. Those fundraisers are private companies making a profit off of our continual lack of adequate funding for public education. That's not a liberal idea.

One of the most permanently unemployable demographics in the country are youth in inner city schools, and most of those schools are falling apart because the union janitors don't think it is their job to maintain them. I can't think of a more beneficial program than to hire a master maintenance person who could train the kids in carpentry, simple electrical maintenance, routine plumbing, show them how to repair a banister or efficiently paint a hallway, change a filter in a furnace, put a shine on a floor, and, once they've mastered a skill, pay them minimum wage to do it. Kids involved in maintaining their school are more likely to take care of it and actually take pride in it. Kids making money doing something constructive, useful, and helping them acquire marketable skills are less likely to be out raising hell with a gang or wasting their time playing mindless video games or watching TV. Make attending classes and achieving a passing grade a requisite for the extra curricular maintenance activity.

I don't think Newt was brain dead at all when he saw the possibilities in that. He is a visionary and not a 'learn by rote' person.

My university was mostly maintained by student labor. It helped keep tuition, fees, and costs of books at maneagable levels and all the buildings and grounds looked good at all times.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT COLLEGE KIDS. CAN YOU BE HONEST? IS THAT JUST TOO MUCH TO ASK OF YOU?

 

[JoeB131]

Fact is, most of these people would never make it in the private sector. It's almost like we have two separate work ethics...

You have just revealed that you are ignorant and stupid. What a silly statement. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is not fact.

Umm, actually, it is.

Seriously, compare how fast you get service at a DMV vs. a Store.

 

[JoeB131]

[
That's what this is really all about, isn't it? I mean it isn't like you liberals are really concerned about kids working. The schools send them out every year to sell candy to support the school despite the generous amounts our money they take in taxes to pay for those bloated union benefits.

So they aren't really worried about the kid's safety. They are probalby safer moping a floor than walking a neighborhood selling candy to strangers.

And you blame the need for school fundraisers on Democrats and liberals? You need to think this one through. Those fundraisers are private companies making a profit off of our continual lack of adequate funding for public education. That's not a liberal idea.

Bullshit. The schools are out of money much of time because they waste it on shit like this...

Child Molesting Teacher Can't Be Fired Thanks to Union | Publius Forum

Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing. You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn't fit for a classroom, the union still won't agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a "rubber room" five days a week and does nothing and he's paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn't include benefits.

or this...

OPS buys 8,000 diversity manuals - Omaha.com

The Omaha Public Schools used more than $130,000 in federal stimulus dollars to buy each teacher, administrator and staff member a manual on how to become more culturally sensitive.

The book by Virginia education consultants could raise some eyebrows with its viewpoints.

The authors assert that American government and institutions create advantages that “channel wealth and power to white people,” that color-blindness will not end racism and that educators should “take action for social justice.”

OR this...

Teachers question district's pricey hotel expenditures | Local & Regional | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon

It's a video, so I'll give you the good parts. The School district spent 72K renting hotel suites when they had buildings with meeting rooms sitting empty.

The thing is, schools aren't being run like businesses...

 

[SAT2]

[
That's what this is really all about, isn't it? I mean it isn't like you liberals are really concerned about kids working. The schools send them out every year to sell candy to support the school despite the generous amounts our money they take in taxes to pay for those bloated union benefits.

So they aren't really worried about the kid's safety. They are probalby safer moping a floor than walking a neighborhood selling candy to strangers.

And you blame the need for school fundraisers on Democrats and liberals? You need to think this one through. Those fundraisers are private companies making a profit off of our continual lack of adequate funding for public education. That's not a liberal idea.

Bullshit. The schools are out of money much of time because they waste it on shit like this...

The thing is, schools aren't being run like businesses...

Sorry, Joe, you're giving random examples and expecting to defend a baseless claim.

School fundraisers are not some liberal or Democratic initiative.

School fundraisers are the school's response to limited funds.

And BTW, schools aren't businesses, and they can't be run like businesses.

 

[JoeB131]

And you blame the need for school fundraisers on Democrats and liberals? You need to think this one through. Those fundraisers are private companies making a profit off of our continual lack of adequate funding for public education. That's not a liberal idea.

Bullshit. The schools are out of money much of time because they waste it on shit like this...

The thing is, schools aren't being run like businesses...

Sorry, Joe, you're giving random examples and expecting to defend a baseless claim.

School fundraisers are not some liberal or Democratic initiative.

School fundraisers are the school's response to limited funds.

And BTW, schools aren't businesses, and they can't be run like businesses.

They have inadequate funds because they don't spend what they have effectively.

In Chicago, the average spending per student is about $12,000. The average tuition in a Catholic Parochial School is about $4000. (You know, those schools where the Machine Politicians send their kids! Funny you all keep avoiding THAT point.) Guess who does better in graduation rates, test scores and college admittance?

In fact, schools would run vastly better if they were privatized and run like businesses.

 

[SAT2]

They have inadequate funds because they don't spend what they have effectively.

In Chicago, the average spending per student is about $12,000. The average tuition in a Catholic Parochial School is about $4000. (You know, those schools where the Machine Politicians send their kids! Funny you all keep avoiding THAT point.) Guess who does better in graduation rates, test scores and college admittance?

In fact, schools would run vastly better if they were privatized and run like businesses.

Hey, Joe. Public schools take all kids, not just kids with good achievement scores, and they aren't subsidized by the Catholic Church. Fail.

 

[Toro]

I will give Newt the benefit of the doubt on this one. It was a singularly stupid comment to make but I think his overall point was that kids should be subjected to work and there is nothing wrong with it. He gave a hairbrained example that boggles the mind for it's ratio of words to nonsense but I think his point was superior to his example.

The thing about Gingrich is that he has A LOT of ideas. A lot of them are good but a lot of them are bad too.

He should hire a filter who screens every single idea he has. Every day, Gingrich could just stand in a room for three hours with only his filter and let out a stream of consciousness and the filter could give a thumbs up or thumbs down to each random idea that pops out. Filtering out all his bad ideas and presenting to the public all his good ideas would probably get him elected President in a landslide.

But then, he wouldn't be Newt.

 

[SAT2]

Elsewhere, via Joe Gandelman, I see that Politico has this anonymous quote from a Republican insider who's wary of Gingrich:

Gingrich "only has two modes -- attack and brag," explained one veteran GOP strategist.

Yeah? And you're surprised that that's playing well with the GOP base?

Who's been the most enduringly popular living figure on the right for more than twenty years? Rush Limbaugh. What does Rush Limbaugh do for a living? Well, he does exactly what Unammed Veteran GOP Strategist says Gingrich does -- attack and brag. That's Limbaugh's entire schtick.

No More Mister Nice Blog

 

[candycorn]

That wasn't Newt's argument. Newt said fire all of the janitors.



Gingrich calls child labor laws ‘truly stupid’ - Election 2012 - The Washington Post

I will give Newt the benefit of the doubt on this one. It was a singularly stupid comment to make but I think his overall point was that kids should be subjected to work and there is nothing wrong with it. He gave a hairbrained example that boggles the mind for it's ratio of words to nonsense but I think his point was superior to his example.

That having been said, I don't see anything wrong with kids having afterschool jobs. I wish we'd bring back programs that were in schools when I was going, Auto Body, DECA, HOCT, Auto Mechanics, A/C Repair, Office education. College isn't for everybody; hell, many that think that they are college material should reconsider in my view. Bring back vocational education; the trades. There is nothing wrong with your child being a lawyer nor is there anything wrong with your child being a plumber, a journeyman electrician, or a painter.

I think Newt's point was that we need to expand downward in some cases because we're losing the grip on the trades in this country. His brain-dead example was just that brain dead.

I sincerely hope he didn't mean literally what he said but lets hear him out on this one.

As a sidebar, can the board tell me if there are vocational education classes in high schools in your area? In my old school, the VOCT building is now a parking lot. Too bad.

School does not prepare you for a job.

I remember when Cosby caught hell for being less than PC.

He may be a lib but at least he's a realist. So is Newt.

Sure it does. You're the same nitwit that said killing terrorist leaders was a bad idea. This would be strike two.

 

[candycorn]

One of the most permanently unemployable demographics in the country are youth in inner city schools, and most of those schools are falling apart because the union janitors don't think it is their job to maintain them. I can't think of a more beneficial program than to hire a master maintenance person who could train the kids in carpentry, simple electrical maintenance, routine plumbing, show them how to repair a banister or efficiently paint a hallway, change a filter in a furnace, put a shine on a floor, and, once they've mastered a skill, pay them minimum wage to do it. Kids involved in maintaining their school are more likely to take care of it and actually take pride in it. Kids making money doing something constructive, useful, and helping them acquire marketable skills are less likely to be out raising hell with a gang or wasting their time playing mindless video games or watching TV. Make attending classes and achieving a passing grade a requisite for the extra curricular maintenance activity.

I don't think Newt was brain dead at all when he saw the possibilities in that. He is a visionary and not a 'learn by rote' person.

My university was mostly maintained by student labor. It helped keep tuition, fees, and costs of books at maneagable levels and all the buildings and grounds looked good at all times.

Marketable skills...mopping floors? Marketable skills are skills that you can get a job with, right? Generally, certifications are what makes one marketable. We don't train on-the-job X-Ray techs for example. Or on-the-job nurses.

Damn that was an idiotic statement he made. You backing him up don't help.