Rape: An Honest Discussion

[mamooth]

How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?

How do you square that with the fact that I never said that?

Because I read your OP, which said this:

you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires

Needless to say, it's difficult to discuss things with you when your positions reverse so often. On the plus side, I'm glad to see you backpedaling away from your statement in the OP. That's all I wanted to see.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?

How do you square that with the fact that I never said that?

Because I read your OP, which said this:

you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires

Needless to say, it's difficult to discuss things with you when your positions reverse so often. On the plus side, I'm glad to see you backpedaling away from your statement in the OP. That's all I wanted to see.

My position has not reversed, you just assume that it is something different than it is.

 

[TheJedi]

It is one of those things where no matter how you look at the picture, there is little to be done to change it.

It just sucks that it's so hard to tell whether or not the accuser is lying, like we can with other crimes.

There are legitimate victims who are doubted and disbelieved, and it sucks thanks to the feminist definition of rape being so watered down that anything can be construed as rape.

There is nothing watered down about consent being the deciding factor between sex and rape.

Absolutely but, sadly, proving consent or lack thereof can be problematic in the absence of eye witnesses and/or tangible proof.

 

[Bush92]

I remember in college there was a march by fem groups and sororities about issue of date rape. It was a candlelight "take back the night" type of thing. When they marched down Greek row passed the frat's (drunk guys standing outside or on porches) the Greek men began chanting "No means yes! No means yes!" Could not do that today without explosion of PC police. Just saying.

 

[Zmrzlina]

I remember in college there was a march by fem groups and sororities about issue of date rape. It was a candlelight "take back the night" type of thing. When they marched down Greek row passed the frat's (drunk guys standing outside or on porches) the Greek men began chanting "No means yes! No means yes!" Could not do that today without explosion of PC police. Just saying.

How mature.

 

[Pennywise]

Rape: An Honest Discussion

It's wrong. Discussion over.

Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.

The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.

 

[Zmrzlina]

Rape: An Honest Discussion

It's wrong. Discussion over.

Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.

The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.

Sorry, that's rape.

 

[Pennywise]

Rape: An Honest Discussion

It's wrong. Discussion over.

Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.

The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.

Sorry, that's rape.

Bullshit.

 

[Zmrzlina]

Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.

The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.

Sorry, that's rape.

Bullshit.

If your sexual partner tells you to stop and you don't that is rape.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi QW I take this very seriously.
I don't even believe this "political bullying" in the media and by majority rule
is constitutional, but people "accept it as the norm."

I believe this is DANGEROUS.
It teaches people that "consent is expendable."

And so that opens the door to
bullying
coercion
fraud/abuse
deception/misrepresentation

And of course, imposing one's will, and "diminishing" or "invalidating"
respect for another person's consent, beliefs, will, choice, OPINIONS
and OBJECTIONS "as if this doesn't matter" then blaming the victim
for complaining afterwards "as if they deserved it as their fault"

reinforces DENIAL of someone's humanity and voice in the matter
and shifts blame to the victim of oppression and injustice

So of course, this opens the door to RAPE
as well as murder and other crimes committed against someone's will
for the motivations and purpose of the other person deemed more important.

If we practice "consent" and "inclusion" as the standard for democratic
process and decisions, this would sensitize and train more people to
resolve conflicts and form consensual agreements/relations by
LISTENING and ACCOMMODATING what others want and say,
NOT overriding these for personal motivation or gain.

It would change relationships, mentality and society.
So that is the standard I seek to follow wherever I can.

I just can't FORCE it on people or it defeats the purpose and contradicts itself.
People learn to respect consent by choice, by practicing it in relations
and finding it works more effectively to solve problems where
everyone can win and get what we want equally without compromising over conflicts.

the SAME process and solutions that resolve abuse issues
(whether religious, political, legal or relationships abuse
and bullying by coercion or exclusion)
will also reduce physical crimes and violence,
including rape and, collectively, genocide and war.

Whatever issue or angle we take on to end injustice and wrong in society,
we end up working together on the same root causes
that start with the individual and how control or will is expressed
in relations with others. if we want to stop trafficking, religious abuse,
relationship and sexual abuse, it takes the same solutions to solve all these problems.

We're really in it together, it's the same struggle that manifests on different fronts.

There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.

I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.

If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.

This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.

If you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.

There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.

The Sacred Cow Slaughterhouse

Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.

This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.

I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.

If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.

I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.

Stop being stupid.

PS as for REALLY sick people who rape and kill out of criminal addiction and illness they can't control,
I believe medical research and development should be conducted on
methods of spiritual healing that can help treat or cure severe mental or criminal disorders.

I'm not the only one saying these sicknesses can be treated and cured with the right therapy:
http://www.ariseandshine.org/

If the former Son of Sam could go through the process
to get rid of his demonic sickness, and he can support others to do the same,
these programs could be set up in safe correctional centers with
professional medical supervision so fewer dangerous people
are running free in society who pose a deadly risk to public health and safety.

More criminally ill people would come forward to get help for their conditions if
they or the people who know they are dangerous
had places to go refer them without getting into more trouble.
This would be to prevent or correct problems as early in advance as possible.

other sources:
http://www.healingisyours.com
http://www.christianhealingmin.org

 

[DriftingSand]

Knowing that rapists exist and that they act on their impulses should be cause enough for ALL women to do whatever they can to avoid places frequented by said predators and dressing in a manner that could or would seen (from a predator's point of view) as an "invitation" (even if that's not the woman's intent). They have to think like a psycho think and ask themselves what would provoke a rapist to act. Even non-rapists or non-psychos can be enticed by a woman who is dressed provocatively. Add a little beer or wine and Dr. Jekyll can turn into Mr. Hyde. Be careful and use common sense and instead of dressing half naked try leaving a little something to the imagination.

 

[G.T.]

Arkham assylum reference <3

 

[bornright]

Rape should carry a death sentence. We should also be aware that the majority of individuals in prison that are not guilty are those that are accused of rape. In some situations it is obvious the woman was raped. In the vast majority of rape claims it is merely a "he said she said" situation. I have no idea how to determine the truth. Polygraph tests are not allowed in court and failing or passing the polygraph does not determine whether or not the person is charged. The woman's past can not be brought up in trial. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand a person's distant past should not be held against her but perhaps recent behavior should.

We often hear of a woman that says she was too intoxicated to say no. Assuming the man was also intoxicated how could he be charged. It happens and it is unfair.

 

[midcan5]

Poor Michael Z. Williamson suffers from the imaginary delusion that conversations in the world are about him. How odd that psychological aliment must be for the narcissist. The site shows a 38 and is named sacred, Freud would have great fun with that picture of false but holy power. Whenever a male tells us we must have a 'honest discussion' you know something is amiss, what would a dishonest discussion look like I wonder? In the end we have the usual it's your fault because you dressed a certain way and walked in a certain place, this isn't a discussion, it is an assumption that given your appearance you asked for it. But wait soon a bit of reality comes forward and we hear that some people do it because that's what they do. They are sick people. That is true but I wonder how many rapes are they guilty of and are there other situations in which power, and maybe drugs or alcohol, play into the rape. That is a place where you haven't dressed for rape. That is where the discussion should take place. How do you control the impulse to take advantage. How do we say clearly this is taboo. So long as the 'you asked for it' mentality exists, the apologies and insane court shenanigans take place. Time we all threw out the excuses.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Poor Michael Z. Williamson suffers from the imaginary delusion that conversations in the world are about him. How odd that psychological aliment must be for the narcissist. The site shows a 38 and is named sacred, Freud would have great fun with that picture of false but holy power. Whenever a male tells us we must have a 'honest discussion' you know something is amiss, what would a dishonest discussion look like I wonder? In the end we have the usual it's your fault because you dressed a certain way and walked in a certain place, this isn't a discussion, it is an assumption that given your appearance you asked for it. But wait soon a bit of reality comes forward and we hear that some people do it because that's what they do. They are sick people. That is true but I wonder how many rapes are they guilty of and are there other situations in which power, and maybe drugs or alcohol, play into the rape. That is a place where you haven't dressed for rape. That is where the discussion should take place. How do you control the impulse to take advantage. How do we say clearly this is taboo. So long as the 'you asked for it' mentality exists, the apologies and insane court shenanigans take place. Time we all threw out the excuses.

First candidate for Arkham Asylum shows up and says stuff that is not only off topic, but flat out wrong.

 

[Mathbud1]

Poor Michael Z. Williamson suffers from the imaginary delusion that conversations in the world are about him. How odd that psychological aliment must be for the narcissist. The site shows a 38 and is named sacred, Freud would have great fun with that picture of false but holy power. Whenever a male tells us we must have a 'honest discussion' you know something is amiss, what would a dishonest discussion look like I wonder? In the end we have the usual it's your fault because you dressed a certain way and walked in a certain place, this isn't a discussion, it is an assumption that given your appearance you asked for it. But wait soon a bit of reality comes forward and we hear that some people do it because that's what they do. They are sick people. That is true but I wonder how many rapes are they guilty of and are there other situations in which power, and maybe drugs or alcohol, play into the rape. That is a place where you haven't dressed for rape. That is where the discussion should take place. How do you control the impulse to take advantage. How do we say clearly this is taboo. So long as the 'you asked for it' mentality exists, the apologies and insane court shenanigans take place. Time we all threw out the excuses.

Obviously no male can be trusted right?

 

[Mathbud1]

There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.

I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.

If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.

This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.

If you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.

There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.

The Sacred Cow Slaughterhouse

Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.

This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.

I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.

If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.

I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.

Stop being stupid.

Unfortunately, rape, or what we humans would call rape, is a naturally occuring behaviour in the animal kingdom. Been out n about lately (and why I haven't been on here) enjoying the nice weather and watching the critters. Among them birds. Morning Doves and whatever these little brown ones are exhibit what I'd call rape and full-out gang bangs of females. The doves in particular will gang up 6 or 7 on 1 female and engage is what I assume is mating, though calling it anything other than rape is perhaps overly kind. As an animal which is part of this nature system, humans are likely no different and until laws were invented governing this natural behaviour forbidding rape, we probably raped. The whole caveman thing about clunking a woman over the head and carrying her off is part of our cultural memory and likely depicting this very fact.

Laws therefore govern nature. Instead of doing what might be within every person's animal brains, we restrict ourselves to what's legal. When we don't we become part of the criminal justice system.

Rapists aren't then "rapists" but merely other people with some kind of poorly developed impulse control system we have better-developed that we don't also rape. As with other mental defects, correcting them so they don't do it again depends ont he specific problem. If biological, treatment might require advanced brain surgery or genetic therapy, whereas if some mild behaviour disorder counselling might do the trick. Still others might be so far gone execution or permanent incarceration is the only sure-fire solution to protect society.

No victim of rape is blameable. Could walk stark naked through a dark skid row alley and not be responsible for getting attacked. Might be the stupidest person on earth, but how we approach our sexuality is every bit as much a basic human right as how we approach religion or political theory. The onus is on the aggressor, never the victim. If you think somoene's dressed provocatviely, you shouldn't be looking at them.

Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.

You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.

 

[Zmrzlina]

Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.

You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.

The issue with this argument is that most victims of rape know their perpetrator personally. Forcible rape in a parking lot or alleyway is not the norm. There have been studies performed on those convicted of those forcible rape of strangers and the vast majority are unable to give an accurate description of what their victim was wearing when they attacked.

 

[Mathbud1]

Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.

You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.

The issue with this argument is that most victims of rape know their perpetrator personally. Forcible rape in a parking lot or alleyway is not the norm. There have been studies performed on those convicted of those forcible rape of strangers and the vast majority are unable to give an accurate description of what their victim was wearing when they attacked.

Just because they can't describe it does not mean it did not register on a more primal level. If I see a sexy girl walk by wearing practically nothing I couldn't describe her clothes either. And does knowing someone personally erase the effect of dressing suggestively? Spending more time around someone dressed sexually is going to have more of a effect. Someone mentally unstable enough to rape could see it as an invitation.

So again, does it not make sense to encourage people to dress and act more conservatively for their own safety?

 

[Zmrzlina]

Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.

You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.

The issue with this argument is that most victims of rape know their perpetrator personally. Forcible rape in a parking lot or alleyway is not the norm. There have been studies performed on those convicted of those forcible rape of strangers and the vast majority are unable to give an accurate description of what their victim was wearing when they attacked.

Just because they can't describe it does not mean it did not register on a more primal level. If I see a sexy girl walk by wearing practically nothing I couldn't describe her clothes either. And does knowing someone personally erase the effect of dressing suggestively? Spending more time around someone dressed sexually is going to have more of a effect. Someone mentally unstable enough to rape could see it as an invitation.

So again, does it not make sense to encourage people to dress and act more conservatively for their own safety?

Those that rape strangers are not going to not rape someone because they are not showing cleavage. That was the point I was trying to make. Also that most rapes are done between people who know each other, so again dress is not a factor.