Questions about power out in one room-Electrician Help?!?!

[Intense]

See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.

Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!



I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!


I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garbage disposal broken? Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it. If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]

 

[Ringel05]

See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.

Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!



I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!


I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garbage disposal broken? Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it. If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]

I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.

 

[Intense]

Garbage disposal broken? Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it. If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]

I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.

I have a modified Whirlpool washer transmission shaft, hard like Samurai Steel. The best course of course is to not drop stuff down there.... just saying.

 

[Ringel05]

Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo

I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.

I have a modified Whirlpool washer transmission shaft, hard like Samurai Steel. The best course of course is to not drop stuff down there.... just saying.

Ummmmm...... disposing of body parts?

 

[007]

Pale, I meant when switching the actual breaker out.

I don't know why EZ would be sticking her fingers up where the wires are coming in anyway.

It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that the box itself is still being fed with juice from the main supply.

You can't change out the breaker unless you take the panel front off, and if you take the panel front off, you expose the lead ins that are always hot. Now I'm guessing 95% of the public has no idea what anything is in that box. They have no comprehension of what electricity even is, let alone knowing what and where they can stick their fingers in that box. It's dangerous for trained people to do. It's just my opinion that if you have no idea what's going on in that box, call an electrician, otherwise you're just flirting with disaster. It takes a quarter of an amp to kill someone, and there's a hell of a lot more than that inside a breaker panel... all the time... unless the meter has been removed from the meter head outside.

 

[007]

The polarity of all outlets and lighting in the affected zone must be checked. Continuity of all connections must be checked. Resistance to ground from the "hot" side must be checked.

If polarity has been incorrect in just one outlet or socket, it's possible you have had current flowing through the "common" link in this circuit. If so, it's also possible one of the connections in this circuit that has been heating, finally burned through. If so, you will still not have a functioning circuit even after changing the breaker.

This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.

Actually, polarity is quite important in a AC circuit. The black wire is the load side, and if receptacles are wired wrong, it causes problems especially if they have a high-draw resistive load plugged in, such as a space heater. Otherwise you are correct, without the "common" nothing at all will work, which is what I said -- if the "common" is disconnected anywhere, perhaps due to a burned through or loose connection, nothing will happen as far as getting useable power.

"Polarity" is probably the wrong term for what I am describing. Incorrect circuit wiring is the right one, and it's all too common to find in residential wiring, unfortunately.

I made my millions and retired as a ET and EET, I'm well aware of the properties of AC and DC.

Actually, no, it's not. The "polarity" of A/C changes and it flows in the opposite direction 60 times a second. Polarity makes no difference at all. What I think you're getting at is there's a hot and a common, and with all new wiring, there's also now a ground. Yes it is important how you hook those up.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.

Actually, polarity is quite important in a AC circuit. The black wire is the load side, and if receptacles are wired wrong, it causes problems especially if they have a high-draw resistive load plugged in, such as a space heater. Otherwise you are correct, without the "common" nothing at all will work, which is what I said -- if the "common" is disconnected anywhere, perhaps due to a burned through or loose connection, nothing will happen as far as getting useable power.

"Polarity" is probably the wrong term for what I am describing. Incorrect circuit wiring is the right one, and it's all too common to find in residential wiring, unfortunately.

I made my millions and retired as a ET and EET, I'm well aware of the properties of AC and DC.

Actually, no, it's not. The "polarity" of A/C changes and it flows in the opposite direction 60 times a second. Polarity makes no difference at all. What I think you're getting at is there's a hot and a common, and with all new wiring, there's also now a ground. Yes it is important how you hook those up.

I suppose this is why they call them "polarized" plugs and sockets. They didn't used to be called that, we didn't use to have these at all, and electrical fires and shocks were much more common as a result. You might recognize these, one blade of the plug is "fatter" than the other. That is called a polarized plug. It is designed to make sure the "hot" side coming out of the socket matches the "hot" side of the circuit, in the device you're plugging in. It is to make sure polarity of the wiring stays correct.

When this is checked, it's with a device called a "polarity checker" which you plug in, it has three status lights telling you if this outlet is wired correctly.

The "hot" side is also referred to as the "load" side and it is indeed 60 cycle AC. The polarity of the wiring is what I am referring to, and this must be correct for residential circuits to work right. One of the symptoms of it not being correct is a breaker tripping all the time for no apparent reason, as EZ describes in the OP -- or, not tripping when it's supposed to.

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false, otherwise we would be using breakers on the common side of the circuit. We don't do that. We use circuit breakers on the "hot" line only, for a reason. Because that's where the load is supposed to be. On a 220 volt circuit however, both wires have potential, there is no "common" and we DO use two breakers on this circuit. 220 volt control circuits used to be quite common in industrial machine applications, until folks realized 24 VAC was much safer for controls.

Next time you're working on a 120vac residential circuit, pull out your amprobe and check the loaded amps (something plugged in, work being done) on the "hot" wire, then on the "common." You'll see quite a drastic difference in current if the outlet is wired correctly. (Hint: It won't be 'just as much.') And it won't be any at all, if there's no load.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

That's true, but, breakers can also just get weak with age.

Age in years has little to do with breaker performance. MILEAGE as in, number of trip cycles, does have.

There's expiration dates on circuit breakers? No. Does the IEEE recommend changing breakers out after they have been in service a certain amount of time? No.

 

[Intense]

Anything Computerized needs to be Polarized and grounded. Polarity is important because of shock hazard. If you get shocks from an appliance, say when you touch it and the sink at the same time, turn the plug upside down, and the hazard disappears. The Skinny Terminal is hot or L1, The fat terminal is Neutral. If you look at an appliance cord you may see one side ribbed or with lettering on it, that is the neutral line or side. 208-220 VAC depends on the type of service in your areas, either way you are looking at L1 and L2 which have different phases 180 degrees apart. On electric cook tops for example, on the lower voltage, when set on hight, the orange glow is weak, 220 has a stronger glow. Those circuits have a neutral and a ground. Some 220 VAC appliances will run motors, timers on L1 (115VAC) and the heater 220VAc, L1 to L2.

 

[007]

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...

No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, 277, (bastard voltage), and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 three phase in them down to household wiring, not to mention Avionics on 26 million dollar fighter air craft, which ran on a very unconventional 400 VDC. That is polarized. It has a + and - and it doesn't change/alternate direction. That's all I'll say about that though. That's not the sort of information I'm supposed to give out.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. You are right all new devices should be hooked up to their respective hot and common terminals. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. But if you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Anything Computerized needs to be Polarized and grounded. Polarity is important because of shock hazard. If you get shocks from an appliance, say when you touch it and the sink at the same time, turn the plug upside down, and the hazard disappears. The Skinny Terminal is hot or L1, The fat terminal is Neutral. If you look at an appliance cord you may see one side ribbed or with lettering on it, that is the neutral line or side. 208-220 VAC depends on the type of service in your areas, either way you are looking at L1 and L2 which have different phases 180 degrees apart. On electric cook tops for example, on the lower voltage, when set on hight, the orange glow is weak, 220 has a stronger glow. Those circuits have a neutral and a ground. Some 220 VAC appliances will run motors, timers on L1 (115VAC) and the heater 220VAc, L1 to L2.

In the olden days before circuit breakers became standard and you had fuses only, this polarity really didn't matter much, other than for safety. But circuit breakers will not function properly if the wiring polarity is wrong. It'll either trip alot for no apparent reason, or never trip.

This is one of the things relevant for EZ's problem, and should well be one of the things the electrician will check. Breakers don't trip because they feel like it, or because they are "old," something is wrong.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...

No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.

The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.

Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.

Root Mean Square.

 

[Intense]

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...

No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.

If you put an Amprobe on L1 or Neutral, you will get the same reading, if there is current flow and zero if the circuit is open. Agreed. If a line had a break in the neutral line and it was polarized, everything would read hot or live up until the break. Sometimes you see that on appliance cords and you see that one side of the plug is burned up, overheated. There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage. Great for Christmas Tree Lights, it will take you right to the break in the line. It will tell you when outlets are live, switches and thermostats opened or closed.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.

Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.

Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

If you put an Amprobe on L1 or Neutral, you will get the same reading, if there is current flow

Actually, you won't. Neutral will always be slightly less than L1 during load, and the amount less is determined by the amount of the load.

 

[Intense]

There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.

Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.

Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.

MM you are thinking PC which is converted to DC. AC fluctuates and registers on the sensor whether the circuit is opened or closed. I work with Multi Meters and Amprobes, and Voltage Sensors every day. I work on AC Power, and low voltage DC.

 

[007]

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...

No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.

The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.

Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.

Root Mean Square.

That is absolutely false about household A/C. Try what I said, and you'll see I'm right. I've checked voltages on literally hundreds of circuits in homes with problems. The common, while a circuit is active/closed, has every single bit as much current and voltage as the hot side in the circuit. There is no possible way the hot side could carry more current, and/or voltage in a circuit than the common. It's not even theoretically possible. E = I x R. R = E / I. I = E / R. Ohms Law.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.

Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.

Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.

MM you are thinking PC which is converted to DC. AC fluctuates and registers on the sensor whether the circuit is opened or closed. I work with Multi Meters and Amprobes, and Voltage Sensors every day. I work on AC Power, and low voltage DC.

I stand corrected. The cycle is detectable, load or not.

+1

 

[007]

There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.

Yes, I have two of them. My older one just lights up. My new one lights up and beeps. There does NOT have to be current present, only voltage. Works on A/C and D/C. Just hold it near the wire. Or if you're standing under a telephone pole with a main line on it, say 2,500 VAC or so, you can be thirty feet away from it and it will go off. Yup, picks up the electromagnetic field.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.

The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.

Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.

Root Mean Square.

That is absolutely false about household A/C. Try what I said, and you'll see I'm right. I've checked voltages on literally hundreds of circuits in homes with problems. The common, while a circuit is active, has every single bit as much current and voltage as the hot side in the circuit. There is no possible way the hot side could carry more current, and/or voltage in a circuit than the common. It's not even theoretically possible. E = I x R. R = E / I. I = E / R. Ohms Law.

I've done this measurement countless times. It's typically not much of a difference, hard to measure, but it IS there. Especially on a resistive load.

Actually, "a difference which makes no difference, is no difference" applies.