Putin is what he is, but what about his Russian troops?

[Mac1958]

Putin will continue to be analyzed and studied for a long time, especially now that he has made this historic military error. He is ultimately responsible for the horrors and suffering taking place right now, things that you and I will probably never know or fully understand. Hopefully he'll be brought to justice.

But what do you think of the Russian troops who are carrying out these acts on the ground? Are they doing it because they have no choice, or is there something within the Russian system that makes them like this? From the way it looks from the outside, these are not brave warriors, they're sadists and psychopaths.

Thoughts?

======================

 

[Obiwan]

It gets better....

Now Russia is trying to claim that it's "illegal" for Ukraine to fight back by hitting Russian targets in a war Russia started....

MSN

Russia on Thursday accused Ukraine of carrying out a helicopter strike on a border town in its territory, and warned that it may deploy nuclear weapons close to the Baltic states and Scandinavia if Finland and Sweden join NATO.

Klimovo, the town that came under attack, is in the southern Bryansk region, and is about 10 kilometers from the border and 500 kilometers from Moscow.

"Using two military helicopters carrying heavy weaponry, Ukrainian armed forces illegally entered Russian airspace," Russia's Investigative Committee, which probes major crimes, said in a statement.

"Flying low, acting deliberately, they carried out at least six airstrikes on residential buildings in the settlement of Klimovo," investigators said. As a result, they said, "at least six residential buildings were damaged... and seven people received injuries of varying severity including one small child who was born in 2020".

It appears to be the first time that Moscow has officially accused the Ukrainian armed forces of sending helicopters into Russia to carry out an attack.

Earlier, the governor of the Belgorod region in southern Russia, Vyacheslav Gladkov, said two Ukrainian military helicopters had carried out a strike on a fuel depot on April 1; the incident was not directly confirmed by Ukraine or Moscow.

 

[Votto]

The Nazis gave their soldiers speed on the battle field

It did two things, it lowered their inhibitions to treating others inhumanely, and it reduced their need to sleep.

Shrug, it worked

Don't know if Putin is doing the same.

 

[Mac1958]

Interesting piece here:

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-04-08/why-would-russian-troops-commit-atrocities-in-ukraine

Richard Haass, a diplomat and senior government adviser currently serving as the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote in a post on Twitter that the atrocities by Russian troops were almost certainly an act of policy “designed to depopulate cities, break [the] spirit of Ukraine rather than simply terrible behavior by troops.”. “Poorly led troops do many awful things, but not systematic executions of civilians,” he wrote.

“It’s difficult to know what motivation was behind this, whether it was a message attempt or not. Clearly a message was sent to the world of Russia’s brutality."

Others disagree, adding that the horrors on display in Ukraine are well within the realm of what could be possible for the fighting forces Russia has deployed to Ukraine – or even for a Western military.

“This is what happens when a conscript army is lied to, given impossible military objectives, encounters fierce resistance, gets a lot of people killed, and hasn’t either the military culture nor the disciplined officer corps to resist a descent into savagery,” wrote Andrew Exum, himself an Army veteran and former top Pentagon official for Middle East policy.

This culture – or a lack of it – has seized public attention in other ways, including reports of Russian troops turning themselves in to Ukrainian authorities, willfully destroying their equipment and attacking their officers as well as other forms of sabotage to undermine a mission many of them visibly do not understand.

 

[justoffal]

The Nazis gave their soldiers speed on the battle field

It did two things, it lowered their inhibitions to treating others inhumanely, and it reduced their need to sleep.

Shrug, it worked

Don't know if Putin is doing the same.

It was PERVATIN. ( METHAMPHETAMINE)

 

[justoffal]

Interesting piece here:

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-04-08/why-would-russian-troops-commit-atrocities-in-ukraine

Richard Haass, a diplomat and senior government adviser currently serving as the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote in a post on Twitter that the atrocities by Russian troops were almost certainly an act of policy “designed to depopulate cities, break [the] spirit of Ukraine rather than simply terrible behavior by troops.”. “Poorly led troops do many awful things, but not systematic executions of civilians,” he wrote.

“It’s difficult to know what motivation was behind this, whether it was a message attempt or not. Clearly a message was sent to the world of Russia’s brutality."

Others disagree, adding that the horrors on display in Ukraine are well within the realm of what could be possible for the fighting forces Russia has deployed to Ukraine – or even for a Western military.

“This is what happens when a conscript army is lied to, given impossible military objectives, encounters fierce resistance, gets a lot of people killed, and hasn’t either the military culture nor the disciplined officer corps to resist a descent into savagery,” wrote Andrew Exum, himself an Army veteran and former top Pentagon official for Middle East policy.

This culture – or a lack of it – has seized public attention in other ways, including reports of Russian troops turning themselves in to Ukrainian authorities, willfully destroying their equipment and attacking their officers as well as other forms of sabotage to undermine a mission many of them visibly do not understand.

Yeah it's pretty obvious that many of them feel a strong connection to Ukraine....identical gene pool....
Not surprising.

 

[Mac1958]

Another way to put this is:

Are these atrocities something that were caused by conditions, or did the Russian troops show up this way?

 

[Muhammed]

The Nazis gave their soldiers speed on the battle field

It did two things, it lowered their inhibitions to treating others inhumanely, and it reduced their need to sleep.

Shrug, it worked

Don't know if Putin is doing the same.

Actually I think it was meth that reduced their need for sleep and made them a bit psychotic.

I've known enough meth heads to realize that meth makes people lose their grip on reality and do things that they normally wouldn't even think of doing.

 

[JoeB131]

Putin will continue to be analyzed and studied for a long time, especially now that he has made this historic military error. He is ultimately responsible for the horrors and suffering taking place right now, things that you and I will probably never know or fully understand. Hopefully he'll be brought to justice.

But what do you think of the Russian troops who are carrying out these acts on the ground? Are they doing it because they have no choice, or is there something within the Russian system that makes them like this? From the way it looks from the outside, these are not brave warriors, they're sadists and psychopaths.

Thoughts?

The reality is, most soldiers will follow orders, no matter how wrong those orders are. While we often say, "I was only following orders" is no excuse, the fact is, most people who commit war crimes are never held to account.

Putin won't be held to account because he runs a nuclear nation. His own people might depose him, but they won't turn him over to the Hague or anyone else.

The best we can hope for is a negotiated peace. The more likely scenario is that the war grinds down to exhaustion with the current front lines in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and it becomes a de facto Russian annexation.

 

[gipper]

Putin will continue to be analyzed and studied for a long time, especially now that he has made this historic military error. He is ultimately responsible for the horrors and suffering taking place right now, things that you and I will probably never know or fully understand. Hopefully he'll be brought to justice.

But what do you think of the Russian troops who are carrying out these acts on the ground? Are they doing it because they have no choice, or is there something within the Russian system that makes them like this? From the way it looks from the outside, these are not brave warriors, they're sadists and psychopaths.

Thoughts?

======================

No doubt you want W and O brought to justice for the horrors and suffering they caused. Yet somehow, you’ve failed to express this in any of your posts. Why?

 

[justoffal]

The reality is, most soldiers will follow orders, no matter how wrong those orders are. While we often say, "I was only following orders" is no excuse, the fact is, most people who commit war crimes are never held to account.

Putin won't be held to account because he runs a nuclear nation. His own people might depose him, but they won't turn him over to the Hague or anyone else.

The best we can hope for is a negotiated peace. The more likely scenario is that the war grinds down to exhaustion with the current front lines in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and it becomes a de facto Russian annexation.

Excellent.... Nobody wants to hear it but you just outlined what the actual reality is.

I don't think it will become an annexation particularly. There are a few simple agreements that can be made that will shut the Russian army right down and send them back home. Up till now I've been blaming Zalensky for not making that decision. However a poster here yesterday who apparently has more knowledge of that situation than I do indicated that it's not zalensky's decision to make and that there are other forces at work in Ukraine that we do not currently see from where we are. I suppose this could be true. It certainly would explain what up till now has been inexplicable in my opinion.

I have had the sense right from the start of this thing that there are vital pieces of information just completely missing from the narrative. There are just too many things that don't make sense with the information that we currently have not to believe that some things are just being completely hidden.

 

[Likkmee]

Putin will continue to be analyzed and studied for a long time, especially now that he has made this historic military error. He is ultimately responsible for the horrors and suffering taking place right now, things that you and I will probably never know or fully understand. Hopefully he'll be brought to justice.

But what do you think of the Russian troops who are carrying out these acts on the ground? Are they doing it because they have no choice, or is there something within the Russian system that makes them like this? From the way it looks from the outside, these are not brave warriors, they're sadists and psychopaths.

Thoughts?

======================

Henry explained it best.

 

[rightwinger]

I don’t think these soldiers are highly motivated or patriotic

They seem to be executing their mission and are allowing their thuggery to come out

I imagine there is much frustration with the number of casualties they are experiencing and are taking it out on civilians

 

[gipper]

Another way to put this is:

Are these atrocities something that were caused by conditions, or did the Russian troops show up this way?

I wonder….do you think American troops cause atrocities?

 

[Mac1958]

I don’t think these soldiers are highly motivated or patriotic

They seem to be executing their mission and are allowing their thuggery to come out

I imagine there is much frustration with the number of casualties they are experiencing and are taking it out on civilians

I surely make no claims to being a historian, but I've seen several accounts saying that Russian armies have been like this throughout history. So, if that's true, I wonder if this is something that is somehow cultural or sociological.

 

[José]

Originally posted by gipper
No doubt you want W and O brought to justice for the horrors and suffering they caused. Yet somehow, you’ve failed to express this in any of your posts. Why?

Because it would totally destroy his characterization of Putin's Russia as a hypernationalist country.

Because accepting the fact that America invaded Iraq with a pathetic casus belli, infinitely weaker than Russia's, would reveal the inconvenient truth that America is every bit as "hypernationalist" as Russia.

 

[Likkmee]

I wonder….do you think American troops cause atrocities?

Sure. They'll kill everyone at their family reuinion if given the order (or wont get more jingles) YES SIR !

 

[gipper]

Because it would totally destroy his characterization of Putin's Russia as a hypernationalist country.

Because accepting the fact that America invaded Iraq with a pathetic casus belli, infinitely weaker than Russia's, would reveal the inconvenient truth that America is every bit as "hypernationalist" as Russia.

He like Toro somehow thinks hating Putin and pushing for a broader war is what all good anti-Trumpers should do. They’re like automatons for the establishment. Apparently they never learn.

 

[theHawk]

would reveal the inconvenient truth that America is every bit as "hypernationalist" as Russia

More like “hyperglobalist”.

 

[José]

Originally posted by the Hawk
More like “hyperglobalist”.

Exactly, The Hawk.

This is my previous post in its entirety. I deleted the part in bold because I deemed it more or less unrelated to our current debate.

But since you brought up the issue of America's insane, bizare multiracialist ideology I'm gonna show you the original version of my post:
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Because it would totally destroy his characterization of Putin's Russia as a hypernationalist country.

Because accepting the fact that America invaded Iraq with a pathetic casus belli, infinitely weaker than Russia's, would reveal the inconvenient truth that America is every bit as "hypernationalist" as Russia even though America ceased identifying herself as a white country and "redefined" herself as a "multiracial" nation back in the mid-60's without the consent and against the will of the american people.