Purgatory, revisited. (with Scripture)

[ninja007]

PURGATORY is a lie of satan.

Yes. That explains all those verses. And the Virgin's miracle at Fatima, more devil stuff.

Now you can see why I made that other top post today about How bored some of these responses around here make me.

THERE ARE NO VERSES that say anything about a purgatory- lets go one at a time and ill explain it to you.

 

[turzovka]

THERE ARE NO VERSES that say anything about a purgatory- lets go one at a time and ill explain it to you.

Yes, please do.

You will be the first one of all the bold ones here who are so adamant purgatory is not referred to in Scripture.

 

[Taz]

I like a god who knows how to burn humans for all eternity.

 

[turzovka]

I like a god who knows how to burn humans for all eternity.

You are not in search of "real proof" as your signature says. You are in search of a cheap laugh so someone here pays you a bit of approval.

 

[Taz]

I like a god who knows how to burn humans for all eternity.

You are not in search of "real proof" as your signature says. You are in search of a cheap laugh so someone here pays you a bit of approval.

Why, you have real proof? Btw, my point was that there's no such god that would burn you for all time if you don't follow a book.

 

[turzovka]

Why, you have real proof? Btw, my point was that there's no such god that would burn you for all time if you don't follow a book.

So maybe you are right. Is that disturbing conundrum enough for you to dismiss God entirely and all signs pointing to Him?

Yes, I have proof to answer your question. Go read the article I posted on the Shroud and tell all those scientists they do not know what they are talking about.

 

[Iceweasel]

Matthew 5:23-26
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

It's about forgiveness, not a Purgatory.

Who are you trying to convince besides yourself? The Bible is replete with parables that provide a resolution or moral to the story, but it is also extended to apply to greater meaning for all comprehending the Word. Before you come to the judge is our Judge Jesus Christ. Before we pass from this earch, reconcile all your animosity towards your fellow man or it will remain a judgment upon your when you come before the Lord. Then God will have you made holy by being purified or serving some penance in purgatory. And Jesus says --- once that is fulfilled THEN you will be released. It is all very clear, God’s mercy and justice work in harmony. When Jesus says “truly I say to you” suggests a grave matter.

2 Samuel 12:13-18
So God forgives David but is still pissed so he kills his kid. Nothing about Purgatory.

No, nothing. Nothing except the message that just because your sins have been forgiven does not mean nothing more is required on our part, nor does it mean we are deemed holy and pure. One must make great amends in his life to overcome his sinfulness, otherwise it will be reconciled in purgatory. This was not intended only for David and how he took such great liberties with his relationship with God. Obviously! We, too, may have a lot to be accountable for if our holiness does not surpass our wicked or careless ways.

Luke 12:45-48
The parable is about doing the right thing when you know full well what the right thing is. Nothing about Purgatory.

This is a cogent argument? All the more reason I trust the judgment of the Church and not rogue theologians or a thousand different Christian voices all who have a pretext that purgatory cannot exist and therefore their only mission is find something in the story they can use to hold up their claim or else have nothing to say. You ignore so much here.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
That one is from Paul is about building up your spiritual riches, not relying on Earthy riches. Nothing about Purgatory.
Trying to bury people in a mountain of bullshit is intellectually dishonest. And really weak.

I am surprised you even took the time to try to contend some of this? “…but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” That just doesn’t resonate with you? Saved, but not instant white robes, first saved through fire. I have no need to expound further. My whole OP says far enough.

The biblical passages had nothing to do with any Purgatory. They prove you don't know you're babbling about and need to rely on church spin instead.

 

[Taz]

Why, you have real proof? Btw, my point was that there's no such god that would burn you for all time if you don't follow a book.

So maybe you are right. Is that disturbing conundrum enough for you to dismiss God entirely and all signs pointing to Him?

Yes, I have proof to answer your question. Go read the article I posted on the Shroud and tell all those scientists they do not know what they are talking about.

Got a link?

A god is still possible, it's just the one that burns you forever for not following a book hasn't been proven yet. And the Shroud is dated to something like the 12th century or something like that.

 

[Avatar4321]

None of those verses proved a thing. You'd think they would have quoted Lazarus and the rich man, or Christ's promise to the thief, or 1 Peter 3&4

 

[ninja007]

THERE ARE NO VERSES that say anything about a purgatory- lets go one at a time and ill explain it to you.

Yes, please do.

You will be the first one of all the bold ones here who are so adamant purgatory is not referred to in Scripture.

the balls in your court- where in the Word is a Purgatory?

 

[ninja007]

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

this is the Bema Seat Judgement of Believers OP. Nothing to do with a purgatory. Believer's good works are judged, not our salvation. Everyone at this "judgement" is saved.

 

[ninja007]

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

again nothing to do with an imaginary purgatory- this passage is speaking about Believers not forgiving eachother. Nothing to do with the afterlife. There are consequences to unforgiveness but you cannot lose your salvation and you cannot earn your way out of a purgatory. You are either saved or not. ONLY two choices. Only two places, heaven or hell.

 

[ninja007]

OP- so much nonsense in your post, hard to know where to start- God condemns no one to hell. He wishes none should perish. People condemn themselves by rejecting Christ.

 

[turzovka]

None of those verses proved a thing. You'd think they would have quoted Lazarus and the rich man, or Christ's promise to the thief, or 1 Peter 3&4

I never said nor did Jesus that some go directly to heaven.
Jesus had much more to say than just that.
And I demonstrated that in 25 or more verses. Do what you will with that.

 

[turzovka]

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

Again nothing to do with an imaginary purgatory- this passage is speaking about Believers not forgiving eachother. Nothing to do with the afterlife. There are consequences to unforgiveness but you cannot lose your salvation and you cannot earn your way out of a purgatory. You are either saved or not. ONLY two choices. Only two places, heaven or hell.

You, Luther and Calvin have blinders on. I attempted to remove them. But just your interpretation of this passage alone tells me they still remain.

OP- so much nonsense in your post, hard to know where to start- God condemns no one to hell. He wishes none should perish. People condemn themselves by rejecting Christ.

Nonsense?
Your comment here does not even address anything I said.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This is the Bema Seat Judgement of Believers OP. Nothing to do with a purgatory. Believer's good works are judged, not our salvation. Everyone at this "judgement" is saved.

The day you understand what "saved" means and what it does not mean will be the beginning of your understanding. People in purgatory ARE saved.

 

[Avatar4321]

None of those verses proved a thing. You'd think they would have quoted Lazarus and the rich man, or Christ's promise to the thief, or 1 Peter 3&4

I never said nor did Jesus that some go directly to heaven.
Jesus had much more to say than just that.
And I demonstrated that in 25 or more verses. Do what you will with that.

And most of your verses have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[turzovka]

None of those verses proved a thing. You'd think they would have quoted Lazarus and the rich man, or Christ's promise to the thief, or 1 Peter 3&4

I never said nor did Jesus that some go directly to heaven.
Jesus had much more to say than just that.
And I demonstrated that in 25 or more verses. Do what you will with that.

And most of your verses have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Sorry, I strongly disagree.
And I explained why in the comments that follow each passage.
Hitherto, I have read no one's thoughtful comments why it would not be so.
They are free to consult their protestant theologian commentaries on the same passages.

 

[ninja007]

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

Again nothing to do with an imaginary purgatory- this passage is speaking about Believers not forgiving eachother. Nothing to do with the afterlife. There are consequences to unforgiveness but you cannot lose your salvation and you cannot earn your way out of a purgatory. You are either saved or not. ONLY two choices. Only two places, heaven or hell.

You, Luther and Calvin have blinders on. I attempted to remove them. But just your interpretation of this passage alone tells me they still remain.

OP- so much nonsense in your post, hard to know where to start- God condemns no one to hell. He wishes none should perish. People condemn themselves by rejecting Christ.

Nonsense?
Your comment here does not even address anything I said.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This is the Bema Seat Judgement of Believers OP. Nothing to do with a purgatory. Believer's good works are judged, not our salvation. Everyone at this "judgement" is saved.

The day you understand what "saved" means and what it does not mean will be the beginning of your understanding. People in purgatory ARE saved.

where is purgatory? who goes to heaven right away and who goes to purgatory? How do you explain this verse?


King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8

Purgatory a Spiritual Bermuda Triangle

 

[ninja007]

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious


Traditions of Men
From the very beginning, men's traditions have been a continuous threat to the Gospel message. In most cases, when a groups adds a tradition to the Word of God, it has absolutely no concrete Scripture to support the alteration. If it's not in the Bible, then it's not valid. This should be every Christian's motto.

The teaching of purgatory is an example. Where did this come from? Look in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find any hint of there being a halfway place for those who need to suffer or pray their way to Heaven. Nor will you find a mention of a place in which people can wait for their family members to give enough money to buy their dearly departed's way out of purgatory.

In my research of the topic of purgatory, I discovered four roots of its origin: 1) tradition; 2) a quote from "the lost books" which states that we should "pray for the dead" (2 Maccabees 12:46); 3) the Council of Trent, which said purgatory exists; and 4) a vision claimed by St. Frances of Rome, in which St. Frances, through divine revelation, claimed to have gotten a peek at this place, which appeared to have upper and lower levels.

None of these explanations for the existence of a purgatory had anything to do with the Holy Bible. Before the church fathers dreamed up the concept of purgatory, they should have read Revelation 22:18: "For I testify unto every man that hearth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things God will add to him the plagues written in this book."

In recent years, I've noticed that several traditions of men have been creeping into the Church. Some of these are environmentalism, liberation theology, politics, psychology, and self-esteem. These add-ons only work to choke true Christian doctrine.

Paul warns believers to be wary of strange new doctrines: "As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed (Gal. 1:9).

 

[turzovka]

Where is purgatory? who goes to heaven right away and who goes to purgatory? How do you explain this verse?

King James Bible We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8

Purgatory is a spiritual state or place just as is heaven and hell. Who goes there? No one knows and God is clear that we are not allowed to dare to judge another soul. The Catholic Church is adamant about that.

Anyway, I submit my OP is far more Biblically comprehensive than either of your two articles. There are many examples of Bible passages which seem to contradict one another, but it’s never so simple as that. Both situations can be true but emphasis is placed on one point, which even though often true is not always true because of other teachings or commands of God.

For example, in one passage says “if he is not for us he is against us.” In another he cautions His apostles to about other folks who they were objecting to “leave them alone, if they are not against us they are for us.”

Or put it this way. You claim faith alone will save you, such as in Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." --- Yes, I believe sincere faith could save one from hell. But I ask how can you accept your words for salvation and ignore these? Matthew 25:31-46 The Great Judgment ---

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Faith is conspicuously not even noted here? Seems to me those who loved and care for their fellow man are more acceptable to Jesus than those who just believed. What did Paul say?... “In the end what remains is faith, hope and charity and the greatest of these is charity.” But you protestants will not acknowledge that.

And the inverse following the verses I posted here, to those who accepted Jesus as their savior and then lived a selfish life indifferent to the sufferings of their fellow man are in big trouble, wouldn’t you say? Of course. So why do you think you can argue your case from Scripture alone by only pointing to those verses that favor your theology but ignore so MANY others that point to equally important matters of obedience that have nothing to do with faith? As I said “saved” does not necessarily mean you are pure and righteous and granted immediate entrance into heaven without being made pure or holy. That is in the Bible, too!


The passage 2 Cor 5:8 you quote above is similar. To be present with the Lord may mean only that you will see Jesus immediately when you die. It does not automatically mean you will be with Jesus in heaven without blemish and instantly. Those who go to purgatory do have a vision of God before they are delivered into that purification state. And a few souls history who have been allowed to witness to some on earth all say the greatest pain is the longing for God and heaven to which they have been briefly in its glory.

No matter if that can be properly explained or not, you and your church cannot begin to account for the verses I gave you, since the Bible is the only words you will ever accept. You have no answer for Fatima where it is without question a supernatural moment! So what do you say then, is it of God or of the evil one? There are really no other possibilities. It is of God, and when Mary told the children their aunt was now in purgatory – that carries enormous weight and validity, especially given the great miracle of the sun soon to follow. This cannot be ignored, nor can you keep God in the box of the Bible and not allow Him to reveal Himself as He pleases.


Finally, I leave you with this Bible passage which your two articles unsurprisingly do not address.

Matthew 18:32-35 Then summoning him, his lord said to him, “You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?” And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you.” Do what?... hand you over to the torturers until you should repay all that was owed him. Is this not clear? This is the purification of a soul. You will be tortured, (NOT given less of a reward in heaven, tortured!) but you will be released after you have made amends. You will be released after due punishment! To where? To heaven! Just ask those souls in purgatory who God allowed to come back to earth to testify to its reality. Or did all that nun and other witnesses make it all up? Why would they lie and jeopardize their own souls?