Punishment for Abortion?

[Dr Grump]

So, that's twice you have posted silly pics in a 'debate', and you wonder why I maintain this isn't a debate.

one.

The only reason it is no longer a debate is because you've come on here saying it isn't. Some of us are actually interested in others' opinions on the matter. And if you can put down the bottle of wine, maybe you can tap in the URL of the place you go for 'serious' debate (which I doubt it is - if so, give out the URL and we'll make up our own mind) and waddle off there...

 

[Anguille]

Abortion doctors should receive very long prison sentences and lose their medical license.

A woman who is found guilty of having an abortion should get at least a couple of years in prison.

At least you are brave enough to be honest and not side step the question. Unlike a few others.

If I believed abortion to be murder I would agree with you. Actually, I would be even more stringent. I'd give women who had abortions as harsh a sentence as the doctor who performed it. If abortion is murder then no reason to treat it any different than the murder of a child or an adult.


And since I believe in the death penalty in certain extreme cases, then conceivably it could be applied to anyone having or giving an abortion.


People who pay for for other people's abortions or assist in abortions would also be guilty of murder too .... If abortion was murder.

But it's not murder nor manslaughter either.

 

[Zoom-boing]

For me, there is no difference between a 12 week fetus being aborted or a 12 week birthed baby being killed. They are both the taking innocent human life. I know many people have their 'line' as to where life begins -- heartbeat; feeling pain; brainwaves. I believe that life begins at conception. Once that sperm and that egg do the dance, life begins. Since humans birth humans . . . well, so far no one has been able to convince me that what grows inside a pregnant woman isn't human life. When you have an abortion you destroy (kill, murder, call it what you will) that innocent human life.

In answer to the OP, what would the punishment be for someone who murdered a 12 week old birthed baby? Then that's the punishment I would apply to someone who murdered a fetus. Both the one who performed the abortion and the mother would be held accountable.

Ok, so according to your 'logic' when a raped woman that also has the terrible misfortune of becoming pregnant decides to get rid of the zygote, she should be punished for the crime of murder. Or a girl raped by her father/brother/uncle. Or a fourteen year old that decides with her mother that she simply can't carry the child to term and decides to take the easy way out. Or a 25-year-old girl that gets pregnant by a boy she just met. All of these women/girls are murderers and should be treated as such. Wow. That sounds more like perversion of justice if I've ever heard of one.

Maybe I should tell my mother that got an abortion right before she applied for divorce from my abusive alcoholic father or my friend who got pregnant while on the pill with a boy she just met... or the 18-year old girl that one day confided in me - that they are nothing short of murderers. Those terrible immoral empty shells of human beings!

Zoom, come on - justify, explain. I'm a-waitin'.

Where do you need clarification? I thought I was pretty clear.

Do you not believe that human life is what grows inside a pregnant woman?

You have much outrage at my position -- how dare I call women who have abortions murderers! - yet you express no compassion whatsoever towards the innocent unborn who are destroyed.

Where did I say these women were 'terrible, immoral empty shells of human beings'? Oh that's right, I didn't. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Dr Grump]

A fine would suffice....like a parking ticket...

 

[Anguille]

I am not sure where exactly to post this.. I was thinking the healthcare forum, but this is more of a morality thing..

Assuming that abortion is made illegal.. What would the punishment be??

As often as rightwingers throw around words like murderers and baby killers.. Would you try and convict a young female for murder and then execute her for an abortion??

Is there really teeth behind your words or is it just a fear tactic??

I am curious..

I seriously doubt abortion will ever be made illegal. There are far too many viarables, to make it anything other than a personal choice between two people. I say two because the father of the child should have rights if he's chosen to stick around and take responsibility for his part in the creation of a life.

The selfish part of me, however, thinks it should be illegal to have an abortion simply because you had a good time last week, and were too drunk to bother thinking about the possible consequences of your actions. In THAT case, I think it should be treated as any other "murder" (since that's the term you've chosen to use). The doctor performing the abortion is guilty of murder; the mother is an accomplice. Simple as that.

Age (too young) is no reason for an abortion, either. If you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to suffer the consequences. If you're old enough to have sex, you're also old enough to take the necessary steps to get birth control. Scared of what Mommy and Daddy will say? Then you're too young for any of the above.

It all simply comes down to two words: Personoal responsibility. Our parents teach us that there are consequences for misbehaving. Why aren't they teaching us that there are consequences to trying to grow up before your time? There really are no "accidential" pregnancies, except for those wherein both parties are using a form of birth control, and it fails. In that case? Suck it up. You knew going into this that birth control is never 100% reliable - the only thing that is is complete abstinence. Raise your child.

Abortion needs to remain legal for things like rape, incest, severe medical complications that affect the lifespan of the mother and/or the child, and THOSE decisions should be left to the two people involved in the creation of said baby. It's nobody elses business.

Signed,

Right-Wing Fruitcake

Yes, Right Wing Fruitcake, that is what abortion is all about. Taking personal responsibility and not bringing into this world a child that is unplanned for, that will be abandoned, is too unhealthy to enjoy a quality of life or whose birth will cause harm to it's mother or who for whatever reason is unwanted.

 

[frazzledgear]

I am not sure where exactly to post this.. I was thinking the healthcare forum, but this is more of a morality thing..

Assuming that abortion is made illegal.. What would the punishment be??

As often as rightwingers throw around words like murderers and baby killers.. Would you try and convict a young female for murder and then execute her for an abortion??

Is there really teeth behind your words or is it just a fear tactic??

I am curious..

Are you under the impression that abortion has always been legal in this country? Or are you just so young you figure back when it was illegal is such "ancient" history it just doesn't count or what? It has been illegal for all but a few decades -so being illegal IS the norm in this country. And how that was done pretty easy to look up.

Without explaining the full rationale for why the laws were written the way they were -it was performing an abortion that was the crime in most states. Proving a woman had one was far more difficult and it was easier to convict an abortionist with the testimony of a woman who had been aborted by that person. So the laws tended to focus primarily on abortionists because they were running a criminal enterprise, were repeat violators of the law and were viewed as preying on women since the ones that came to police attention were those who left injured and dead women in their wake.

The punishment for performing an abortion was a prison sentence and if the abortionist had killed a woman as a result of the abortion -often also charged with manslaughter as well for which the punishment was harsher and in addition to the abortion violation. There has never been a death penalty for the crime in any state and if made illegal again, there still wouldn't be one.

 

[Anguille]

For me, there is no difference between a 12 week fetus being aborted or a 12 week birthed baby being killed. They are both the taking innocent human life. I know many people have their 'line' as to where life begins -- heartbeat; feeling pain; brainwaves. I believe that life begins at conception. Once that sperm and that egg do the dance, life begins. Since humans birth humans . . . well, so far no one has been able to convince me that what grows inside a pregnant woman isn't human life. When you have an abortion you destroy (kill, murder, call it what you will) that innocent human life.

In answer to the OP, what would the punishment be for someone who murdered a 12 week old birthed baby? Then that's the punishment I would apply to someone who murdered a fetus. Both the one who performed the abortion and the mother would be held accountable.

Although I completely disagree with you that a 12 week fetus and a 12 week child are the same. If I did, then I would completely agree with you on how the murderer should be punished.

 

[Anguille]

For me, there is no difference between a 12 week fetus being aborted or a 12 week birthed baby being killed. They are both the taking innocent human life. I know many people have their 'line' as to where life begins -- heartbeat; feeling pain; brainwaves. I believe that life begins at conception. Once that sperm and that egg do the dance, life begins. Since humans birth humans . . . well, so far no one has been able to convince me that what grows inside a pregnant woman isn't human life. When you have an abortion you destroy (kill, murder, call it what you will) that innocent human life.

In answer to the OP, what would the punishment be for someone who murdered a 12 week old birthed baby? Then that's the punishment I would apply to someone who murdered a fetus. Both the one who performed the abortion and the mother would be held accountable.

Ok, so according to your 'logic' when a raped woman that also has the terrible misfortune of becoming pregnant decides to get rid of the zygote, she should be punished for the crime of murder. Or a girl raped by her father/brother/uncle. Or a fourteen year old that decides with her mother that she simply can't carry the child to term and decides to take the easy way out. Or a 25-year-old girl that gets pregnant by a boy she just met. All of these women/girls are murderers and should be treated as such. Wow. That sounds more like perversion of justice if I've ever heard of one.

Maybe I should tell my mother that got an abortion right before she applied for divorce from my abusive alcoholic father or my friend who got pregnant while on the pill with a boy she just met... or the 18-year old girl that one day confided in me - that they are nothing short of murderers. Those terrible immoral empty shells of human beings!

Zoom, come on - justify, explain. I'm a-waitin'.

I can't speak for Zoom but as i said above, if I did believe as she does that a 12 week fetus and a 12 week baby are both living human beings, then it would make no difference at all if they were the result of a rape. You can't claim some fetuses are entitled to rights and others not because of something their father did.

 

[Toronado3800]

IF it became illegal it would indicate the country decided it was murder. The punishment should fit the crime for premeditated murder.

Then again while I hope never to have to make that decision in my personal life I'm not sure it is murder and I'm for small government in our personal lives so I'm pro choice.

 

[Anguille]

Are you under the impression that abortion has always been legal in this country? Or are you just so young you figure back when it was illegal is such "ancient" history it just doesn't count or what? It has been illegal for all but a few decades -so being illegal IS the norm in this country. And how that was done pretty easy to look up.

Wrong. It wasn't till 1910 or so that abortion was made illegal. It was legal and commonplace during the colonial period, when the Constitution was written and up until about 1910, as I said.

Legality of abortion is the norm for this country.

 

[AllieBaba]

Shove it up your ass, Bf. I will post whatever I want, whereever I want, whenever I want - unless Gunny, or a Mod tells me different.

It is this kind of dumbass behavior that justifies my contention that there is no serious debate on this forum. Because you - and one or two others - are too ******* stupid to understand the difference between asking genuine questions and starting off from a stance of enflaming others.

That's why you're an idiot and I am not.

Save the bluster...

An idiot is a person that doesn't consider the consequences of their solutions...that would be YOU...

So let's end the debate here and now...as it stands the law is perfect...everyone has the right to CHOOSE... if you choose not to have an abortion, it is you business...if another woman chooses to have one, STFU...

Firstly, stop telling me to STFU, it makes you look stupid. Oh, wait..... yea, carry on - idiot boy.

Secondly, you don't ******* know my solution so don't make assumptions about them - to assume makes an Ass out of U, not Me..... oh wait.... yea, carry on - Assclown.

If you had half a brain, you would be able to work out my stance on abortion.... oh wait.... yea, carry on - stupid boy.

For the record: my stance on abortion (which I have already stated on this board): I am pro life - as a human being and as a Catholic - however, (and it is a capitalized however) - because I believe in the Constitution and the rights and responsibiilties of the individual, I believe that each person is entitled to make that decision for themselves.

I'm quite sure that will cause the heads of certain lefties to explode. I beleive I don't have the right to tell you how to live. I would seriously appreciate it if lefties would do likewise - instead of telling the rest of the country that we must live according to the principles (or lack thereof) of the left.

However, it's never the right of one person to kill another, except in self defense, and therein lies the conundrum. Those of us who are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, and except in a matter of the life of the mother being in danger, see abortion as murder.

Pro-choice generally view babies of any age as inconsequential, but no more so than when they are still in their mothers' bodies. Not only that, but the pro-choice crowd see abortion as a way to reduce populations of people...whether they be poor, criminal, or whatever, and use the (false) argument that by allowing, funding, and encouraging women of these populations to #1, behave promiscuously, and #2, get abortions, they will reduce poverty, child abuse, and a variety of evils.

It's all about what value you place on life. If you listen to many of the pro-choice voices not just on this board, but universally, they don't see life...except the lives of themselves and their own.....as precious or valuable. They think the world would be a better place if there were fewer of all those they look down on. And maybe they're right. But the willingness to commit murder to accomplish it is genocide or selective breeding.

 

[Anguille]

I am not sure what you are getting at here.

My point was that many murders get off with what most of us would consider light sentences. Even when convicted a murderer will get off with little or no time. To be clear, I may be thinking of things you would consider, "negligent homicide" types of murder.

Would one consider abortion, first degree murder or something less "attrocious"?

Immie

If I though abortion was a crime, even negligent homicide would still be way too strong a charge IMO. Certainly the loss of a life due to drinking and driving or a similar cause is far more of a loss that the loss of fetal "life".

 

[Toronado3800]

AllieBaba , I disagree with the generalizations you've made about pro-choice folks.

 

[Zona]

Their abortion should become a Dominos pizza topping.

In fact I think it is on the 'Meat Lovers'.

Get in my belly!

 

[MajikMyst]

I am not sure where exactly to post this.. I was thinking the healthcare forum, but this is more of a morality thing..

Assuming that abortion is made illegal.. What would the punishment be??

As often as rightwingers throw around words like murderers and baby killers.. Would you try and convict a young female for murder and then execute her for an abortion??

Is there really teeth behind your words or is it just a fear tactic??

I am curious..

Are you under the impression that abortion has always been legal in this country? Or are you just so young you figure back when it was illegal is such "ancient" history it just doesn't count or what? It has been illegal for all but a few decades -so being illegal IS the norm in this country. And how that was done pretty easy to look up.

Without explaining the full rationale for why the laws were written the way they were -it was performing an abortion that was the crime in most states. Proving a woman had one was far more difficult and it was easier to convict an abortionist with the testimony of a woman who had been aborted by that person. So the laws tended to focus primarily on abortionists because they were running a criminal enterprise, were repeat violators of the law and were viewed as preying on women since the ones that came to police attention were those who left injured and dead women in their wake.

The punishment for performing an abortion was a prison sentence and if the abortionist had killed a woman as a result of the abortion -often also charged with manslaughter as well for which the punishment was harsher and in addition to the abortion violation. There has never been a death penalty for the crime in any state and if made illegal again, there still wouldn't be one.

Thanks for the history lesson, which I didn't need as it is irrelevent to the here and now.. And thanks for avoiding my question or is your history lesson your answer??

So manslaughter??

To correct your history.. For the most part.. Abortion was legal.. As it was taken from Common law from England.. Life was determined if it could stir in the womb.. Before that an abortion was legal.. Not exactly safe but legal as the life was not protected until it could stir in the womb.. It was from 1860 to 1900 that abortion became illegal in every state, with some states allowing provisions for the mother's life..

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the common law adopted from England, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:

“ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.

In 1967, states started expanding legalized abortions.. While not openly legal, almost all states had exceptions for rape and incest or the mother's health..

Soon later, Roe V. Wade was issued and that settled the entire issue.. Sort of..

The basis for this thread remains the same.. Are the pro-lifers in this forum willing to execute a teenage girl for getting an abortion?? Or a doctor for that matter?? I want to know if they are willing to back the lables given to pro-choice people??

 

[Immanuel]

AllieBaba , I disagree with the generalizations you've made about pro-choice folks.

And yet, no one has a problem with the generalizations made by others in this thread about pro-life folks?

Immie

 

[MajikMyst]

Save the bluster...

An idiot is a person that doesn't consider the consequences of their solutions...that would be YOU...

So let's end the debate here and now...as it stands the law is perfect...everyone has the right to CHOOSE... if you choose not to have an abortion, it is you business...if another woman chooses to have one, STFU...

Firstly, stop telling me to STFU, it makes you look stupid. Oh, wait..... yea, carry on - idiot boy.

Secondly, you don't ******* know my solution so don't make assumptions about them - to assume makes an Ass out of U, not Me..... oh wait.... yea, carry on - Assclown.

If you had half a brain, you would be able to work out my stance on abortion.... oh wait.... yea, carry on - stupid boy.

For the record: my stance on abortion (which I have already stated on this board): I am pro life - as a human being and as a Catholic - however, (and it is a capitalized however) - because I believe in the Constitution and the rights and responsibiilties of the individual, I believe that each person is entitled to make that decision for themselves.

I'm quite sure that will cause the heads of certain lefties to explode. I beleive I don't have the right to tell you how to live. I would seriously appreciate it if lefties would do likewise - instead of telling the rest of the country that we must live according to the principles (or lack thereof) of the left.

However, it's never the right of one person to kill another, except in self defense, and therein lies the conundrum. Those of us who are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, and except in a matter of the life of the mother being in danger, see abortion as murder.

Pro-choice generally view babies of any age as inconsequential, but no more so than when they are still in their mothers' bodies. Not only that, but the pro-choice crowd see abortion as a way to reduce populations of people...whether they be poor, criminal, or whatever, and use the (false) argument that by allowing, funding, and encouraging women of these populations to #1, behave promiscuously, and #2, get abortions, they will reduce poverty, child abuse, and a variety of evils.

It's all about what value you place on life. If you listen to many of the pro-choice voices not just on this board, but universally, they don't see life...except the lives of themselves and their own.....as precious or valuable. They think the world would be a better place if there were fewer of all those they look down on. And maybe they're right. But the willingness to commit murder to accomplish it is genocide or selective breeding.

So?? It is safe to say that you have no clue what the pro-choice crowed think or what our views are..

Good to know.. Perhaps reading and listening more and posting and talking less would be a start in educating you in your incorrect views of the pro-choice views and positions..

Let me know if you want me to explain it to you!!

 

[MajikMyst]

AllieBaba , I disagree with the generalizations you've made about pro-choice folks.

And yet, no one has a problem with the generalizations made by others in this thread about pro-life folks?

Immie

What generalizations??

 

[Anguille]

AllieBaba , I disagree with the generalizations you've made about pro-choice folks.

And yet, no one has a problem with the generalizations made by others in this thread about pro-life folks?

Immie

What are you? Chopped liver?

YOU had a HUGE problem with the generalizations made about anti-choicers.

But you don't seem to like it if someone has a problem when it concerns pro choicers.

 

[AllieBaba]

AllieBaba , I disagree with the generalizations you've made about pro-choice folks.

That's your right. I've been debating with them for years, and it's the conclusion I have come to.

On this board we have a poster who thinks any death is good for the earth as it reduces the population.

We have a poster who thinks that the value of children is decreased according to the size of the family. That poster has one child, of course.

We have posters who insist that people who cannot afford children should be prevented from having them.

We have posters who think that poor women who don't abort abuse their children.

We have posters who think certain groups of people have more value than others. For example, people who live in certain areas of the US, who have limited education, who have made poor choices, are not valuable human beings and therefore should be dismissed, have their rights removed, etc.

And that's just on this board. I could provide a name for each but I won't, because they know who they are, and I'm not up for fighting a dozen shrieking hysterics all at once.

The same posters equate the intentional targeting and killing of children as the same as the incidental killing of innocents in war.

They all share a disdain of people not like them, and while they proclaim from the rooftops it's all about protecting humanity, all they're doing is justifying the butchery of children.