Prophecy Clarified

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
Wouldn't God changing the scriptures require his having to change his mind after he said that he doesn't?

He Does Not Change
"I am the Lord. I do not change." (Malachi 3:6)
"Jesus the Messiah is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

He Will Not Change His Mind
"God is not a man that He should lie, or a son of man that His purpose may be changed." (Numbers 23:19)

"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4)

He Will Not Change His Word
"I tell you the truth, till Heaven and Earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle from the law shall pass away until all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18)

"I the Lord have said the word and I will do it. I will not go back...my purpose will not be changed." (Ezekiel 24:14)

He Will Not Change His Plan
"God, by whom you have been marked out in His purpose, is unchanging, and He will make it complete." (I Thessalonians 5:24)

The Quran says in 4:157,
"They said, 'We killed the Messiah Jesus the Son of Mary, the Apostle of God' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them."

This is an important claim because in the Quran, only Jesus’ enemies are said to have been fooled into thinking they crucified Him; not Jesus’ followers!

Naturally, if God wanted to thwart Jesus’ enemies into thinking this, and Jesus’ disciples professed Islam, then His disciples would not have been led astray. Why, after all, would God want to deceive those who have professed to believe the truth and follow His Apostle?

The Bible, however, tells a different story. It states that Jesus’ disciples saw Him die on the cross. John 19:26, 27 says, "When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved (John) standing nearby..."

Women were among Jesus’ followers; and they saw Him die on the cross. John 19:25 reveals, "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."

These people all loved and followed Jesus. Those who followed Jesus were His disciples. It is hard to conceive that God, being a God of truth, would want to deceive those [who believe the truth] into thinking that Jesus died when He did not.

Unfortunately, the implications a changelessness are ossification, stagnation, decay, and death.

 

[Bullypulpit]

A point many are failing to understand here is that the BIble was written in allegorical form because it is allegory. The literalist interpretations of scripture did not really take root until the mid to late 19th century.

When science began to make great leaps forward in understanding the world, there were many who felt threatened by this and retreated into a literal interpretation of scripture which led them to attempt to give their beliefs the same rational footing as science. But it simply doesn't work. All religion deals with the irrational side of human nature, and any attempt to rationalise it only results in failure and frustration which leads to a further entrenchment of literalist/fundamentalist views.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
A point many are failing to understand here is that the BIble was written in allegorical form because it is allegory. The literalist interpretations of scripture did not really take root until the mid to late 19th century.

When science began to make great leaps forward in understanding the world, there were many who felt threatened by this and retreated into a literal interpretation of scripture which led them to attempt to give their beliefs the same rational footing as science. But it simply doesn't work. All religion deals with the irrational side of human nature, and any attempt to rationalise it only results in failure and frustration which leads to a further entrenchment of literalist/fundamentalist views.

Most religious doctrines can be rationalized as a code for building stable communities. A social contract, if you will. Failure is not the only outcome of rationalizing things, at least not for me.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Unfortunately, the implications a changelessness are ossification, stagnation, decay, and death.

Talk about pulling a random baseless response out of yer butt......

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
A point many are failing to understand here is that the BIble was written in allegorical form because it is allegory. The literalist interpretations of scripture did not really take root until the mid to late 19th century.

I feel so much better now to know you are the authority on Biblical scripture, and you have actually seen inside the head of all believers since the beginning of creation to know what they believe and how.

When science began to make great leaps forward in understanding the world, there were many who felt threatened by this and retreated into a literal interpretation of scripture which led them to attempt to give their beliefs the same rational footing as science.

Correct. Until then, it was accepted by believers as being fact far BEYOND science.

But it simply doesn't work. All religion deals with the irrational side of human nature, and any attempt to rationalise it only results in failure and frustration which leads to a further entrenchment of literalist/fundamentalist views.

:clap1:

Literalist/fundamentalist: Taking the word literally and believing in the foundations.

You just said it cannot be taken literally? You prove it with a statement of the opposite?

Not only do you not prove a point, but you are so far off and blinded by your running from God that you cannot even see where you are going in your attempt at rationalization.

If all Biblical scripture deals with irrational human nature, where is your explaination of Biblical prophecy and scientific fact that doesn't get discovered until thousands of years later?

 

[dilloduck]

He said religions--not biblical scripture

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Unfortunately, the implications a changelessness are ossification, stagnation, decay, and death.

Normally that would apply, to anything mortal, however, since God is perfect and he created the universe with perfect laws of natural harmony and order, nothing can stagnate or decay in the natural laws of our universe.

as a sidenote, this is NOT a statement to be used against me in the evolution/creation debate. I'm simply playing devils advocate against bully :

 

[dilloduck]

help me out newguy----which prophecies have been fulfilled in the last 1000 years?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
help me out newguy----which prophecies have been fulfilled in the last 1000 years?

dillo, do you think he is going to fall for another one of your set-ups?

I can give you the BIGGEST one . . . . the formation of Israel.

 

[freeandfun1]

The scattering of the Jews:

"Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations" Nehemiah 1:8 (KJV)

"And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you." Deuteronomy 4:27 (KJV)

"And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone." Deuteronomy 28:64 (KJV)

"Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them: I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them. " Jeremiah 9:13-16 (KJV)

"Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people" 1 Kings 9:7 (KJV)

"Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations." 2 Chronicles 7:20 (KJV)

"But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate." Zechariah 7:14 (KJV)

"And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them" Jeremiah 29:18 (KJV)

"For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. " Amos 9:9 (KJV)

The Jews come back
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it." Jeremiah 30:3 (KJV)

"Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. " For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished." Jeremiah 30:10-11 (KJV)

"Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he." Jeremiah 31:8-10 (KJV)

"Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;" Isaiah 43:5,6 (KJV)

"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 11:17-20 (KJV)

"As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out." Ezekiel 20:33-34 (KJV)

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God." Ezekiel 28:25-26 (KJV)

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea." Isaiah 11:11 (KJV)

References concerning the regathering of Israel are numerous!

# In Psalm 80 the "Shepherd of Israel" is beseeched to cause His face to shine on the scattered people of Israel (not to pour out His wrath upon them) "and we shall be saved!"

# In Psalm 102:13 the prophet writes: "You will arise and have mercy on Zion; for the time to favour her, yes, the set time, has come."

# In Ezekiel 34:28, Micah 4:4, Zephaniah 3:13 and Jeremiah 30:10 ... God promises the regathered Israel that "they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid."

# In Isaiah 41:8-16, God tells regathered Israel "fear not", and "be not dismayed". He promises that His "righteous right hand" (not Israel's righteousness) will uphold Israel, and that those who strive and war with Israel shall perish and be as nothing.

# In Zephaniah 3:15, God promises that He will take away Israel's judgments, cast out her enemy, and that she "shall see disaster no more".

# In Deuteronomy 30:9, Jeremiah 32:41, Isaiah 62:5 and Zephaniah 3:17, God promises that as He returns Israel and plants her in her land, He will rejoice over her with gladness and with singing.

An interesting picture of the rebirth of the nation of Israel is seen
in Ezekiel's vision of Dry Bones. *Read Ezekiel Chapter 37*

GOD'S VERY NAME is linked to the regathering and survival of Israel. His promises will be brought to pass for His own purposes. You can count on it - or else - He would be a Liar.

"And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, "These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land." But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. . . " Ezekiel 36:19-24 (KJV)

SO, WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF ISRAEL BEING REGATHERED IN HER LAND? ... 100%

And so it happened in 1948 ...

Prophecy Becomes History
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." Amos 9:14-15 (KJV)

 

[dilloduck]

Why do you think that asking a question is a "set up "? Is it because I am asking for an answer?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Why do you think that asking a question is a "set up "? Is it because I am asking for an answer?

I defended you the other day and encouraged him to go ahead and answer you and you ended up blasting every point he made. That is why.

 

[dilloduck]

If someone claims to have all the answers, I would think that person should expect to be challenged. Don't you think this is quite a claim to make? I would be a fool to not question such a person. It also gives him a chance to prove himself, not only to me but others reading this post.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
If someone claims to have all the answers, I would think that person should expect to be challenged. Don't you think this is quite a claim to make? I would be a fool to not question such a person. It also gives him a chance to prove himself, not only to me but others reading this post.

But you become personal in your attacks.

Anyway, what did you think of the one prophecy I presented? It is pretty hard to debate that one. . . .

Though I have seen many try.

 

[dilloduck]

ok I'll give ya 1-------got any more?

 

[freeandfun1]

Actually, that is three.

1. The Jews were scattered.
2. They came back.
3. They formed a nation.

Here is four:

"In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."Zechariah 12:6 (KJV)

"As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it." Isaiah 31:5 (KJV)

Exactly as foretold Israel has devoured her attackers ... winning every war against overwhelming odds.

Everytime Israel's enemies attack her - she ends up with MORE LAND!

The 1948/49 - The War of Independence:
On May 15, 1948 ... one day after the creation of the State of Israel, the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded the new Jewish state. The Arab forces were significantly larger than Israel's and were better equipped ... But despite their small numbers, the Jews were well-organized, well-disciplined and well-trained. The war was marked by long periods of fighting and temporary cease-fires. Finally, fighting officially ended in January 1949, at which time Israel held the 5,600 square miles allotted to it by the UN partition plan plus an addition 2,500 square miles. Transjordan held the eastern sector of Jerusalem and the West Bank and Egypt held the Gaza Strip.

For More Info:
* Israeli War for Independence (ADL)
* The War of Independence, 1948 (peace encyclopedia)

1967 / The 6 Day War :
In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent. Against this background, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.

For More Info:
* The 1967 War (ADL)
* The Six-Day War (peace encyclopedia)

1973 / The Yom Kippur War:
In an effort to force Israel to unilaterally surrender captured lands, Egypt and Syria jointly attacked Israel on October 6, 1973, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Other Arab states contributed troops and financial support. Caught by surprise, Israel suffered severe losses in human life and equipment. Following an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet airlift to the Arab states, the U.S. sent an airlift to Israel enabling her to recover from earlier setbacks. Saudi Arabia then led the Arab world in an oil embargo imposed on the United States and other western nations. ... When hostilities finally ended, Israel held an additional 165 square miles of territory from Syria, and had encircled the Egyptian Third Army on the west bank of the Suez Canal. Egyptian forces held two areas of Israeli territory along the east bank of the canal. Israel, Egypt and Syria all held prisoners of war.

For More Info:
* The 1973 Yom Kippur War (ADL)
* The Yom Kippur War, 1973 (peace encyclopedia)

September 28, 2000 - ? / The Current "Intifada"
On the eve of Rosh Hashanah, (the Jewish New Year), the then leader of the right-wing Likud party, Ariel Sharon, journeyed to the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. Sharon, accompanied by an entourage of security officers and Likud MKs, claimed he was exercising his right to visit the Mount, under Israeli control since the 1967 Six-Day War and holy to Muslims and Jews. Sharon’s visit angered many ... violence escalated ... Since then, the Palestinians have dubbed their revolt the 'Al Aqsa Intifada' – a sequel to the original Intifada that lasted from approximately 1988 to 1992. The death toll is very high and climbing weekly on both sides.

 

[dilloduck]

ok my point is that even I accept that 10 predictions have come true in 1000 years, it's hardly something to take to the bank--Nostradamus did better than that. Never the less--on a personal level. Do all the prophecies have to came true to make Jesus the true Messiah? . Is looking to prophecy a way to prove that what you beleive is true and then you can breathe a sigh of relief?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
ok my point is that even I accept that 10 predictions have come true in 1000 years, it's hardly something to take to the bank--Nostradamus did better than that. Never the less--on a personal level. Do all the prophecies have to came true to make Jesus the true Messiah? . Is looking to prophecy a way to prove that what you beleive is true and then you can breathe a sigh of relief?

Yes, all the prophecies relating to the Messiah do have to come true and they have.

Looking to the past prophecies help me realize that the future prophecies will occur and therefore, I guess it does provide comfort by letting me know what I believe is true.

There are many other prophecies. But as I have made clear many, many times. I am not an expert on the Bible. I am still learning.

My major position is that I believe in Jesus as our Messiah and therefore, I have to accept that the rest of the Bible is therefore true.

 

[dilloduck]

Thanks for the honest and open explanation of your belief. I don't quite understand why you have to believe in the Old Testament literally to validate your belief in Jesus but then again there is a lot I don't understand.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Thanks for the honest and open explanation of your belief. I don't quite understand why you have to believe in the Old Testament literally to validate your belief in Jesus but then again there is a lot I don't understand.

In the Old Testament we are provided with the signs we are to watch for which will verify the Messiah. Also, the Old Testament also provides many prophecies about the end times, etc. and gives us insight into what God expects of us.