Progressives and Conservatives PLEASE! Stop the insanity!

[Gatekeeper]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Those who have put their lives on the line, sadly many who have lost them, deserve more, if that's possible, of the BEST we can do. After seeing the Nam vets being spat upon and crapped upon by this government and it's citizens, both of which have ALL their freedoms, thanks to these brave souls, I cannot understand how anyone could deny them anything reasonable regardless of what it relates to. Agent Orange along with a multitude of other issues comes to mind over this "Mudslide", or should I say "Shitslide" of BS from many of our ungrateful 'leaders' who have no problem sending others into harm's way as long as their asses are protected.
Don't get me started!

 

[Foxfyre]

Just a gentle request here folks, that we don't make this a food fight of US against THEM whichever side you might see yourself as being on. There are lots and lots of threads to sling whatever mud at whomever you think deserves it.

But the fact is, since the days of Teddy Roosevelt, through every administration since, with the possible exception of maybe Coolidge, this snowball has been rolling and gaining momentum. Republicans supported Social Security. Johnson would never have gotten Medicare passed if half the GOP hadn't supported it. Democrats voted with the GOP to get the Senior Prescription bill passed in the last administration.

When it comes to fiscal matters, the difference between Progressives and Conservatives is whether the American people are better able to spend their own money on their own behalf or whether government would do a better job spending it for them.

But I'm hoping both Progressives and Conservatives can agree that we can't continue to spend money we don't have, most especially on thngs most Americans don't want.

What is the best way to stop it?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

C4A see post #18

 

[Care4all]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

no one wants these cuts, but we are in a position that we have to cut them....

i believe our lifer military man or woman does deserve more benefits than the millions of other gvt employees in lifetime clerical type jobs, due to their risk. And i would love for all americans to have ALL the benefits of all civil service workers, it is just not reality.

no one wants to cut spending in the area of the gvt that they favor...i understand this....

retirement pensions of gvt workers has a 40 trillion obligation is what i read....something HAS TO GIVE.....we can NOT continue at this pace.

 

[Gatekeeper]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

no one wants these cuts, but we are in a position that we have to cut them....

i believe our lifer military man or woman does deserve more benefits than the millions of other gvt employees in lifetime clerical type jobs, due to their risk. And i would love for all americans to have ALL the benefits of all civil service workers, it is just not reality.

no one wants to cut spending in the area of the gvt that they favor...i understand this....

retirement pensions of gvt workers has a 40 trillion obligation is what i read....something HAS TO GIVE.....we can NOT continue at this pace.

Highlighting your comments, I agree with that! When I see what some civil service employees, for example, pull down for yearly retirements and in many cases paying like $10,000 out of their lump sum payouts for lifetime healthcare!! I and millions of others are paying though the nose, in my case over 12K/yr with no end in sight!

Seeing ex military people, both career and others, in some cases getting the mini-shaft for serving gets me a little upset..........BUT, unfortunate as it is, we, our country, can only do what it can afford, and right now it is very unrealistic. Most of us are taking financial hits big time while making no more in income, falling behind ($)wise, is now a daily event.

With an out of control leadership, events and other issues effecting all economies, we all have some very difficult decisions to make, and they are not pleasant.

 

[WillowTree]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

ha ha ha ha.. the seniors have worked their entire lives, why don't you suggest the lazy get up off their ass and go to work and pay some taxes.. you are the nuttietst of nutz,, I'll hand you that.. make illegals legal.. really? the Bush tax cuts will expire in Jan 2011. do that and add in the taxes on your government health care and you will sit quietly by and watch the economy collapse..go to the back of the class.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

no one wants these cuts, but we are in a position that we have to cut them....

i believe our lifer military man or woman does deserve more benefits than the millions of other gvt employees in lifetime clerical type jobs, due to their risk. And i would love for all americans to have ALL the benefits of all civil service workers, it is just not reality.

no one wants to cut spending in the area of the gvt that they favor...i understand this....

retirement pensions of gvt workers has a 40 trillion obligation is what i read....something HAS TO GIVE.....we can NOT continue at this pace.

Perhaps we need to stop hiring government workers instead of screwing the ones who have worked their entire lives for a benefit promised them in a contract.

 

[NYcarbineer]

When you account for these portions of the 2009 - 10 deficits:

1. lost tax revenue from the recession

2. two unfunded wars

3. unfunded Medicare part D

4. lost revenue Bush tax cuts

5. lost revenue Obama tax cuts

...who's to blame??

 

[Gatekeeper]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

ha ha ha ha.. the seniors have worked their entire lives, why don't you suggest the lazy get up off their ass and go to work and pay some taxes.. you are the nuttietst of nutz,, I'll hand you that.. make illegals legal.. really? the Bush tax cuts will expire in Jan 2011. do that and add in the taxes on your government health care and you will sit quietly by and watch the economy collapse..go to the back of the class.

In another post, that's one of the items that I want those who think everything is rosey to think again, I mentioned wait until 2015 then come back and tell me things are great. When these tax cuts expire, well here is just one link to what's in store for all of us.
This is just one URL, to check all we are going to lose together do some research, but take your medication, many may become very ill or at the least very nauseated.

Obama budget lets Bush tax cuts expire - MarketWatch

 

[Foxfyre]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

ha ha ha ha.. the seniors have worked their entire lives, why don't you suggest the lazy get up off their ass and go to work and pay some taxes.. you are the nuttietst of nutz,, I'll hand you that.. make illegals legal.. really? the Bush tax cuts will expire in Jan 2011. do that and add in the taxes on your government health care and you will sit quietly by and watch the economy collapse..go to the back of the class.

Remember, no food fights please.

I agree with Care on #1. We must have a strong, growing economy. I don't know if we agree on how government best encourages that though.

I agree with Care on #2. We cannot continue entitlements that we can't afford especailly when they are outgrowing the economy year after year. And, if we are going to keep the programs at all, we have to rethink and fix them.

I am willing to agree with Care on #3 IF the cuts in the defense budget are elimination of unnecessary redundancy, unaffordable stuff we don't absolutely have to have, elimination of waste, graft, corruption, and self serving expenditures including all pork. I can't agree on cuts that will weaken us militarily.

I dsagree with Care on #4. I believe to allow the tax relief for everybody to expire this year will prolong and deepend the recession.

I am willing to discuss #5 on her list which is a reform, rethinking of government benefits. As with Medicare and Social Security, AND military retirement benefits, no government benefits can just be stopped in its tracks without breaking faith with and creating unconscionable hardship on those who were promised those benefits. But we CAN start now the slow and incremental process of privatizing those benefits and moving them to the private sector.

We didn't create this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. But we can put it into reverse and start slowly, carefully, and humanely backing out of it.

 

[Care4all]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

no one wants these cuts, but we are in a position that we have to cut them....

i believe our lifer military man or woman does deserve more benefits than the millions of other gvt employees in lifetime clerical type jobs, due to their risk. And i would love for all americans to have ALL the benefits of all civil service workers, it is just not reality.

no one wants to cut spending in the area of the gvt that they favor...i understand this....

retirement pensions of gvt workers has a 40 trillion obligation is what i read....something HAS TO GIVE.....we can NOT continue at this pace.

Perhaps we need to stop hiring government workers instead of screwing the ones who have worked their entire lives for a benefit promised them in a contract.

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

When you account for these portions of the 2009 - 10 deficits:

1. lost tax revenue from the recession

2. two unfunded wars

3. unfunded Medicare part D

4. lost revenue Bush tax cuts

5. lost revenue Obama tax cuts

...who's to blame??

Everyone!!!!!!

 

[PatekPhilippe]

no one wants these cuts, but we are in a position that we have to cut them....

i believe our lifer military man or woman does deserve more benefits than the millions of other gvt employees in lifetime clerical type jobs, due to their risk. And i would love for all americans to have ALL the benefits of all civil service workers, it is just not reality.

no one wants to cut spending in the area of the gvt that they favor...i understand this....

retirement pensions of gvt workers has a 40 trillion obligation is what i read....something HAS TO GIVE.....we can NOT continue at this pace.

Perhaps we need to stop hiring government workers instead of screwing the ones who have worked their entire lives for a benefit promised them in a contract.

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

We need to stop the madness....reducing the size of the government workforce makes more sense. You cannot compete with the private sector for quality employees by offering shit compensation packages.

 

[WillowTree]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

ha ha ha ha.. the seniors have worked their entire lives, why don't you suggest the lazy get up off their ass and go to work and pay some taxes.. you are the nuttietst of nutz,, I'll hand you that.. make illegals legal.. really? the Bush tax cuts will expire in Jan 2011. do that and add in the taxes on your government health care and you will sit quietly by and watch the economy collapse..go to the back of the class.

Remember, no food fights please.

I agree with Care on #1. We must have a strong, growing economy. I don't know if we agree on how government best encourages that though.

I agree with Care on #2. We cannot continue entitlements that we can't afford especailly when they are outgrowing the economy year after year. And, if we are going to keep the programs at all, we have to rethink and fix them.

I am willing to agree with Care on #3 IF the cuts in the defense budget are elimination of unnecessary redundancy, unaffordable stuff we don't absolutely have to have, elimination of waste, graft, corruption, and self serving expenditures including all pork. I can't agree on cuts that will weaken us militarily.

I dsagree with Care on #4. I believe to allow the tax relief for everybody to expire this year will prolong and deepend the recession.

I am willing to discuss #5 on her list which is a reform, rethinking of government benefits. As with Medicare and Social Security, AND military retirement benefits, no government benefits can just be stopped in its tracks without breaking faith with and creating unconscionable hardship on those who were promised those benefits. But we CAN start now the slow and incremental process of privatizing those benefits and moving them to the private sector.

We didn't create this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. But we can put it into reverse and start slowly, carefully, and humanely backing out of it.

Let me put it this way.. obie wan and his stupid health care has already stolen 960 billion dollars from the seniors. Again, the seniors worked their entire lives putting money into that system and he just reached in and took it. Now she has the audacity to say they should work a little longer? NO, the answer is to make more people work and pay taxes. We are fast approaching a society where the givers (Federal taxpayerrs) are way less than the takers (those who don't pay Federal Taxes) but still reap all the benefits. Why keep insisting that benefits be stricken from those who have actually earned them?

 

[Foxfyre]

Perhaps we need to stop hiring government workers instead of screwing the ones who have worked their entire lives for a benefit promised them in a contract.

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

We need to stop the madness....reducing the size of the government workforce makes more sense. You cannot compete with the private sector for quality employees by offering shit compensation packages.

I agree with this too. If we're going to accept the willingness of our men and women in uniform to put themselves at personal risk and in harm's way on our behalf, and if we want the best we can get to do that which is to their benefit and ours, they deserve fair compensation for their service.

But if the current system is making it more and more difficult to provide that compensation, then I think the best minds should pool their collective wisdom for solutions to accomplish all goals including fair compensation and benefits for our service personnel AND fiscal responsibility.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Perhaps we need to stop hiring government workers instead of screwing the ones who have worked their entire lives for a benefit promised them in a contract.

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

We need to stop the madness....reducing the size of the government workforce makes more sense. You cannot compete with the private sector for quality employees by offering shit compensation packages.

I was just thinking, I know, don't say it, we need our government to use the same business practices of the fast food and restaurant industry does in the USA.

Shit wages, little or no benefits and what restaurants do, shit wages, and the rest on tips, for performance! and efficiency Most of the government employees at ALL levels would starve. I was trying to be serious, but I have little self control, sorry.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

We need to stop the madness....reducing the size of the government workforce makes more sense. You cannot compete with the private sector for quality employees by offering shit compensation packages.

I was just thinking, I know, don't say it, we need our government to use the same business practices of the fast food and restaurant industry does in the USA.

Shit wages, little or no benefits and what restaurants do, shit wages, and the rest on tips, for performance! and efficiency Most of the government employees at ALL levels would starve. I was trying to be serious, but I have little self control, sorry.

Funny you mention "performance". The new personnel system does exactly that. Civil Service employees who are subjected to this new program are given raises and benefits based on their performance evaluations.

 

[Foxfyre]

ha ha ha ha.. the seniors have worked their entire lives, why don't you suggest the lazy get up off their ass and go to work and pay some taxes.. you are the nuttietst of nutz,, I'll hand you that.. make illegals legal.. really? the Bush tax cuts will expire in Jan 2011. do that and add in the taxes on your government health care and you will sit quietly by and watch the economy collapse..go to the back of the class.

Remember, no food fights please.

I agree with Care on #1. We must have a strong, growing economy. I don't know if we agree on how government best encourages that though.

I agree with Care on #2. We cannot continue entitlements that we can't afford especailly when they are outgrowing the economy year after year. And, if we are going to keep the programs at all, we have to rethink and fix them.

I am willing to agree with Care on #3 IF the cuts in the defense budget are elimination of unnecessary redundancy, unaffordable stuff we don't absolutely have to have, elimination of waste, graft, corruption, and self serving expenditures including all pork. I can't agree on cuts that will weaken us militarily.

I dsagree with Care on #4. I believe to allow the tax relief for everybody to expire this year will prolong and deepend the recession.

I am willing to discuss #5 on her list which is a reform, rethinking of government benefits. As with Medicare and Social Security, AND military retirement benefits, no government benefits can just be stopped in its tracks without breaking faith with and creating unconscionable hardship on those who were promised those benefits. But we CAN start now the slow and incremental process of privatizing those benefits and moving them to the private sector.

We didn't create this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. But we can put it into reverse and start slowly, carefully, and humanely backing out of it.

Let me put it this way.. obie wan and his stupid health care has already stolen 960 billion dollars from the seniors. Again, the seniors worked their entire lives putting money into that system and he just reached in and took it. Now she has the audacity to say they should work a little longer? NO, the answer is to make more people work and pay taxes. We are fast approaching a society where the givers (Federal taxpayerrs) are way less than the takers (those who don't pay Federal Taxes) but still reap all the benefits. Why keep insisting that benefits be stricken from those who have actually earned them?

So, translating this a bit, let's look at it as if we are the ones responsible to fix it.

Social Security was implemented on the theory that most folks wouldn't live very long after they started collecting it. It was not anticipated that subsequent Congresses would add on myriad benefits to be paid out of social security in addition to a tiny pension for seniors. It was not anticipated that Social Security would ever SUPPORT anybody. It was not anticipated that any worker would ever pay more than 1% of their earnings into social security. It was expected there would be 50 workers for every beneficiary. So all that is now out the window.

Seniors are living decades past their retirement age.
Many younger people are drawing significant benefits from Social Security.
And subsequent Congresses are adding on COLAs year after year because too many Seniors now look at social security as providing a living wage.
And as the number of workers is now fast approaching 2 people for every retiree.

So how do we fix it? For one small part of the fix, is it really unreasonable for Seniors to continue working a bit longer before eligibility to draw social security? Sixty these days is the old 40. And there are many many 70 and 75 year olds who are perfectly capable of holding down a job if they choose to do so.

 

[Foxfyre]

i don't think you saw it PP but i said NEW HIRES need to have reduced benefits...i did not say existing, though i do believe some gvt jobs now of menial importance are being ''over benefited'' for the positions.

We need to stop the madness....reducing the size of the government workforce makes more sense. You cannot compete with the private sector for quality employees by offering shit compensation packages.

I was just thinking, I know, don't say it, we need our government to use the same business practices of the fast food and restaurant industry does in the USA.

Shit wages, little or no benefits and what restaurants do, shit wages, and the rest on tips, for performance! and efficiency Most of the government employees at ALL levels would starve. I was trying to be serious, but I have little self control, sorry.

BUT.....even in the fast food industry, healthy competition has a way of working it out. When there is full employment, even McDonald's starts its people out well over minimum wage or Burger King is gonna get the best of the available work force.

The government competes with the private sector for good people so it has to offer wages and benefits on a par with the private sector.

Where the system becomes corrupt is when a government job becomes significantly more attractive than a private sector job and is used as a benefice by Congress and/or the President. At that point the system is corrupted and the fiscal integrity is compromised.

 

[WillowTree]

Remember, no food fights please.

I agree with Care on #1. We must have a strong, growing economy. I don't know if we agree on how government best encourages that though.

I agree with Care on #2. We cannot continue entitlements that we can't afford especailly when they are outgrowing the economy year after year. And, if we are going to keep the programs at all, we have to rethink and fix them.

I am willing to agree with Care on #3 IF the cuts in the defense budget are elimination of unnecessary redundancy, unaffordable stuff we don't absolutely have to have, elimination of waste, graft, corruption, and self serving expenditures including all pork. I can't agree on cuts that will weaken us militarily.

I dsagree with Care on #4. I believe to allow the tax relief for everybody to expire this year will prolong and deepend the recession.

I am willing to discuss #5 on her list which is a reform, rethinking of government benefits. As with Medicare and Social Security, AND military retirement benefits, no government benefits can just be stopped in its tracks without breaking faith with and creating unconscionable hardship on those who were promised those benefits. But we CAN start now the slow and incremental process of privatizing those benefits and moving them to the private sector.

We didn't create this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. But we can put it into reverse and start slowly, carefully, and humanely backing out of it.

Let me put it this way.. obie wan and his stupid health care has already stolen 960 billion dollars from the seniors. Again, the seniors worked their entire lives putting money into that system and he just reached in and took it. Now she has the audacity to say they should work a little longer? NO, the answer is to make more people work and pay taxes. We are fast approaching a society where the givers (Federal taxpayerrs) are way less than the takers (those who don't pay Federal Taxes) but still reap all the benefits. Why keep insisting that benefits be stricken from those who have actually earned them?

So, translating this a bit, let's look at it as if we are the ones responsible to fix it.

Social Security was implemented on the theory that most folks wouldn't live very long after they started collecting it. It was not anticipated that subsequent Congresses would add on myriad benefits to be paid out of social security in addition to a tiny pension for seniors. It was not anticipated that Social Security would ever SUPPORT anybody. It was not anticipated that any worker would ever pay more than 1% of their earnings into social security. It was expected there would be 50 workers for every beneficiary. So all that is now out the window.

Seniors are living decades past their retirement age.
Many younger people are drawing significant benefits from Social Security.
And subsequent Congresses are adding on COLAs year after year because too many Seniors now look at social security as providing a living wage.
And as the number of workers is now fast approaching 2 people for every retiree.

So how do we fix it? For one small part of the fix, is it really unreasonable for Seniors to continue working a bit longer before eligibility to draw social security? Sixty these days is the old 40. And there are many many 70 and 75 year olds who are perfectly capable of holding down a job if they choose to do so.

Is it unreasonable for us to expect the other half of the Americans who live in America and benefit from those services provided to them their entire lifetimes to PAY FEDERAL INCOME TAX? If you expect SENIORS to work til they drop for what little they get why wouldn't you expect it of everybody? why should 50% of Americans get free educations, medical care, highways military protection and representation in congress off the backs of the other 50%