Problems with Ex Nihilo Creation

Pretty hard to the believe the various religions that say their god yelled SHA-ZAM and created a planet and more.

OTOH, that's why its called faith.
 
Atheists have long been uncomfortable with the fact that the universe had a beginning?

Why?

Because the Bible said the universe had a beginning. That's why.
 
There is a video series on youtube regarding the problems with ex nihilo creation (ceation out of nothing). Here is a link to that video series:

Problems with Ex Nihilo Video Series - YouTube
Here is the error with his argument. He doesn't understand what free will is and erroneously assumes that free will does not exist because we have no choice in what we do.

Free will most certainly does exist. And man most certainly does have a choice in what he does and how he behaves.

Man is the only animal who is capable of having knowledge of good and evil. All other animals operate on instinct and impulse. They do not have a concept of good and evil. This is unique to man.

Man also operates on instinct and impulse but he has the unique ability to override his instincts and impulses for the sake of good. This is free will.
 
Here is what he and everyone else who believes in inflation says:

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.
And there it is right in front of you from your own source, what you are calling "nothing" your own source is calling it a BALANCE of 2 (two) THINGS, positive ENERGY and negative ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Net energy equaling zero means the 2 energies, positive and negative, are EQUAL, not that they don't exist and are "nothing."
Get it?
It is very simple and I'm sure everyone else gets it!
 
Here is what he and everyone else who believes in inflation says:

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.
And there it is right in front of you from your own source, what you are calling "nothing" your own source is calling it a BALANCE of 2 (two) THINGS, positive ENERGY and negative ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Net energy equaling zero means the 2 energies, positive and negative, are EQUAL, not that they don't exist and are "nothing."
Get it?
It is very simple and I'm sure everyone else gets it!
Clearly you don't understand that according to inflation theory nothing exists until space time is created through a quantum tunneling event where all energy is created and that the negative force is a consequence of the positive force just like in statics where the sum of forces equals zero.
 
The concept of something coming from nothing is impossible for our thought processes to digest. That may merely be a limit of our thought processes.
God Is Impossible, Just Like Most Superheroes

Who sets up these limits on us? Nothing was created; all of it always was. The forms of it have changed, that's all.
The SLoT says otherwise.

As time approaches infinity, the universe will approach thermal equilibrium. This we do not see. :smile:
Like you say, we went over this before, thermal equilibrium can only be reached when all motion stops, which contradicts the TLoT.
Has nothing to do with motion. It has everything to do with loss of heat. THERMAL equilibrium. We don't see that.
It has everything to do with motion because the THEORETICAL heat death of the universe is when all the energy of the universe becomes heat and no more WORK can be done. But as long as there is motion there is KINETIC energy and kinetic energy CAN do work. The reality of the Third Law of Thermodynamics say that there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore there can never be thermal equilibrium in the universe.

You have invented a Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that does not exist and violates the TLoT.
THERE IS NO FOURTH LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, so I ask you in reality HOW MANY LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ARE THERE?????????
I dare you to answer!
 
The concept of something coming from nothing is impossible for our thought processes to digest. That may merely be a limit of our thought processes.
God Is Impossible, Just Like Most Superheroes

Who sets up these limits on us? Nothing was created; all of it always was. The forms of it have changed, that's all.
The SLoT says otherwise.

As time approaches infinity, the universe will approach thermal equilibrium. This we do not see. :smile:
Like you say, we went over this before, thermal equilibrium can only be reached when all motion stops, which contradicts the TLoT.
Has nothing to do with motion. It has everything to do with loss of heat. THERMAL equilibrium. We don't see that.
It has everything to do with motion because the THEORETICAL heat death of the universe is when all the energy of the universe becomes heat and no more WORK can be done. But as long as there is motion there is KINETIC energy and kinetic energy CAN do work. The reality of the Third Law of Thermodynamics say that there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore there can never be thermal equilibrium in the universe.

You have invented a Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that does not exist and violates the TLoT.
THERE IS NO FOURTH LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, so I ask you in reality HOW MANY LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ARE THERE?????????
I dare you to answer!
It seems that you are unable to comprehend infinity.
 
Here is what he and everyone else who believes in inflation says:

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.
And there it is right in front of you from your own source, what you are calling "nothing" your own source is calling it a BALANCE of 2 (two) THINGS, positive ENERGY and negative ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Net energy equaling zero means the 2 energies, positive and negative, are EQUAL, not that they don't exist and are "nothing."
Get it?
It is very simple and I'm sure everyone else gets it!
Clearly you don't understand that according to inflation theory nothing exists until space time is created through a quantum tunneling event where all energy is created and that the negative force is a consequence of the positive force just like in statics where the sum of forces equals zero.
Inflation says no such thing, that is YOUR perversion of inflation
Your own quote clearly says positive and negative energy exists and it is their very existence that creates space/time by a quantum fluctuation of those TWO existing energies.
 
God Is Impossible, Just Like Most Superheroes

Who sets up these limits on us? Nothing was created; all of it always was. The forms of it have changed, that's all.
The SLoT says otherwise.

As time approaches infinity, the universe will approach thermal equilibrium. This we do not see. :smile:
Like you say, we went over this before, thermal equilibrium can only be reached when all motion stops, which contradicts the TLoT.
Has nothing to do with motion. It has everything to do with loss of heat. THERMAL equilibrium. We don't see that.
It has everything to do with motion because the THEORETICAL heat death of the universe is when all the energy of the universe becomes heat and no more WORK can be done. But as long as there is motion there is KINETIC energy and kinetic energy CAN do work. The reality of the Third Law of Thermodynamics say that there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore there can never be thermal equilibrium in the universe.

You have invented a Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that does not exist and violates the TLoT.
THERE IS NO FOURTH LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, so I ask you in reality HOW MANY LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ARE THERE?????????
I dare you to answer!
It seems that you are unable to comprehend infinity.
It seems you can't comprehend the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Answer the question.
 
Here is what he and everyone else who believes in inflation says:

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.
And there it is right in front of you from your own source, what you are calling "nothing" your own source is calling it a BALANCE of 2 (two) THINGS, positive ENERGY and negative ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Net energy equaling zero means the 2 energies, positive and negative, are EQUAL, not that they don't exist and are "nothing."
Get it?
It is very simple and I'm sure everyone else gets it!
Clearly you don't understand that according to inflation theory nothing exists until space time is created through a quantum tunneling event where all energy is created and that the negative force is a consequence of the positive force just like in statics where the sum of forces equals zero.
Inflation says no such thing, that is YOUR perversion of inflation
Your own quote clearly says positive and negative energy exists and it is their very existence that creates space/time by a quantum fluctuation of those TWO existing energies.
That is exactly what inflation theory says. No universe. Then universe.

Inflation theory explains how the universe begins.
 
The SLoT says otherwise.

As time approaches infinity, the universe will approach thermal equilibrium. This we do not see. :smile:
Like you say, we went over this before, thermal equilibrium can only be reached when all motion stops, which contradicts the TLoT.
Has nothing to do with motion. It has everything to do with loss of heat. THERMAL equilibrium. We don't see that.
It has everything to do with motion because the THEORETICAL heat death of the universe is when all the energy of the universe becomes heat and no more WORK can be done. But as long as there is motion there is KINETIC energy and kinetic energy CAN do work. The reality of the Third Law of Thermodynamics say that there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore there can never be thermal equilibrium in the universe.

You have invented a Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that does not exist and violates the TLoT.
THERE IS NO FOURTH LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, so I ask you in reality HOW MANY LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ARE THERE?????????
I dare you to answer!
It seems that you are unable to comprehend infinity.
It seems you can't comprehend the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Answer the question.
I'm not the one who can't comprehend infinity and thermal equilibrium which IS a consequence of the SLoT.
 
From your own link;

Max Planck wrote that the phrase "entropy of the universe" has no meaning because it admits of no accurate definition.[21][22] More recently, Grandy writes: "It is rather presumptuous to speak of the entropy of a universe about which we still understand so little, and we wonder how one might define thermodynamic entropy for a universe and its major constituents that have never been in equilibrium in their entire existence."[23] According to Tisza: "If an isolated system is not in equilibrium, we cannot associate an entropy with it."[24] Buchdahl writes of "the entirely unjustifiable assumption that the universe can be treated as a closed thermodynamic system".[25] According to Gallavotti: "... there is no universally accepted notion of entropy for systems out of equilibrium, even when in a stationary state."[26] Discussing the question of entropy for non-equilibrium states in general, Lieb and Yngvason express their opinion as follows: "Despite the fact that most physicists believe in such a nonequilibrium entropy, it has so far proved impossible to define it in a clearly satisfactory way."[27] In the opinion of Čápek and Sheehan, "no known formulation [of entropy] applies to all possible thermodynamic regimes."[28] In Landsberg's opinion, "The third misconception is that thermodynamics, and in particular, the concept of entropy, can without further enquiry be applied to the whole universe. ... These questions have a certain fascination, but the answers are speculations, and lie beyond the scope of this book."[29]

A recent analysis of entropy states that "The entropy of a general gravitational field is still not known," and that "gravitational entropy is difficult to quantify." The analysis considers several possible assumptions that would be needed for estimates, and suggests that the visible universe has more entropy than previously thought. This is because the analysis concludes that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor.[30] Another writer goes further; "It has long been known that gravity is important for keeping the universe out of thermal equilibrium. Gravitationally bound systems have negative specific heat—that is, the velocities of their components increase when energy is removed. ... Such a system does not evolve toward a homogeneous equilibrium state. Instead it becomes increasingly structured and heterogeneous as it fragments into subsystems."[31]
 
Like you say, we went over this before, thermal equilibrium can only be reached when all motion stops, which contradicts the TLoT.
Has nothing to do with motion. It has everything to do with loss of heat. THERMAL equilibrium. We don't see that.
It has everything to do with motion because the THEORETICAL heat death of the universe is when all the energy of the universe becomes heat and no more WORK can be done. But as long as there is motion there is KINETIC energy and kinetic energy CAN do work. The reality of the Third Law of Thermodynamics say that there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore there can never be thermal equilibrium in the universe.

You have invented a Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that does not exist and violates the TLoT.
THERE IS NO FOURTH LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, so I ask you in reality HOW MANY LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ARE THERE?????????
I dare you to answer!
It seems that you are unable to comprehend infinity.
It seems you can't comprehend the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Answer the question.
I'm not the one who can't comprehend infinity and thermal equilibrium which IS a consequence of the SLoT.
You can't comprehend how an expanding universe can NOT reach equilibrium!!!!
 
The author of the video series is not stating that there isn't free will. He believes there is free will outside of ex nihilo creation. His argument is against ex nihilo creation. He argues that if God is omniscient, and omnipotent, then he would know all the choices that a person is going to make and have the ability and choice, given the concept of ex nihilo creation, to create that being or not. He argues that this takes out the randomness of decision making since God created the being knowing full well the outcome from the beginning. He knew all the choices that being would make and still created that being. Thus it can be argued that God has culpability in the evil since he created it with full knowledge of its outcome from before its creation and full power to give whatever attributes and strengths he so chooses. It is also argued that God consigns such beings to hell when he had the choice from the beginning of whether to create it or not.

He then argues that it there is self existent intelligence and matter in the universe then God would not create these beings ex nihilo but would create them from that which has always existed. If the intelligent being is self existent then it probably cannot be destroyed either. Thus God, being benevolent, is simply giving the intelligence an opportunity to progress and allows the intelligence to decide on its own if that is what it wants to do. God is not culpable in the decision making since it is a self existent being who thinks and chooses through its own will not being created ex nihilo. The being itself is responsible for the choices it makes. God is only there to help it to progress should it so choose to do so. It should be noted however, that God and his goodness rule in the heavens above and will not allow evil to overtake it. Thus goodness is a progression while evil is punished.

Listen to his argument again:



 
At some time in the future no more energy transformations can take place. The Universe will reach some stage of maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium. The Second Law essentially says that the Universe must have had a beginning and a end.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

There is no such thing as perpetual motion.
 
Again your OWN link contradicts your NOTHINGNESS theory!!!!!

From your link:

"Inflation was the 'bang' of the Big Bang," Filippenko told SPACE.com "Before inflation, there was just a little bit of stuff, quite possibly, expanding just a little bit. We needed something like inflation to make the universe big."
That seems to contradict your position more than the position of all the leading cosmologists.
 
Here is what he and everyone else who believes in inflation says:

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.
And there it is right in front of you from your own source, what you are calling "nothing" your own source is calling it a BALANCE of 2 (two) THINGS, positive ENERGY and negative ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Net energy equaling zero means the 2 energies, positive and negative, are EQUAL, not that they don't exist and are "nothing."
Get it?
It is very simple and I'm sure everyone else gets it!
Clearly you don't understand that according to inflation theory nothing exists until space time is created through a quantum tunneling event where all energy is created and that the negative force is a consequence of the positive force just like in statics where the sum of forces equals zero.
Inflation says no such thing, that is YOUR perversion of inflation
Your own quote clearly says positive and negative energy exists and it is their very existence that creates space/time by a quantum fluctuation of those TWO existing energies.
That is exactly what inflation theory says. No universe. Then universe.

Inflation theory explains how the universe begins.
But it doesn't say no energy, then energy!!!!!
It says already existing positive and negative energy had a quantum fluctuation and a space/time universe was formed.
 

Forum List

Back
Top