Pro -lifers are a joke

[Fatality]

I just gave your three legitimate reasons for abortion - the only three legitimate reasons as far as my beliefs go.

Why do you not have the nerve to answer a single one of them?

i dont give a flying **** what your reasons are you inhumane reprobate

So, what you're really saying is that you're here simply to troll, and have nothing to offer to any discussion?

Why don't you answer the three questions put to you? Or does "Fatality" mean you're actually an abortion gone wrong?

youve been given your answers you medival barbarian. now why dont you do the world a favor and volunteer to go through the meat grinder to show your dedication to the cause. feet first plz

 

[Dis]

i dont give a flying **** what your reasons are you inhumane reprobate

So, what you're really saying is that you're here simply to troll, and have nothing to offer to any discussion?

Why don't you answer the three questions put to you? Or does "Fatality" mean you're actually an abortion gone wrong?

youve been given your answers you medival barbarian. now why dont you do the world a favor and volunteer to go through the meat grinder to show your dedication to the cause.

You haven't given a single solitary answer, toots.

Willing to place your family in any of the three scenarios I outlined? Or haven't you got the guts to actually finish this conversation, you bridge-dwelling buffoon?

 

[DiveCon]

i dont give a flying **** what your reasons are you inhumane reprobate

So, what you're really saying is that you're here simply to troll, and have nothing to offer to any discussion?

Why don't you answer the three questions put to you? Or does "Fatality" mean you're actually an abortion gone wrong?

youve been given your answers you medival barbarian. now why dont you do the world a favor and volunteer to go through the meat grinder to show your dedication to the cause. feet first plz

man, stop digging already
she doesnt support abortion on demand

 

[JD_2B]

its interesting so many pro choice advocates get to decide at which point its ok to kill a baby. the point is at what point does the child get to decide that he gets to live. its all speculation on what will happen with him IF he goes to fostercare IF he goes to an adoption agency or any other IFs you can think of.

There is a big difference between killing a baby and ending a pregnancy... a baby is alive- a born person- a pregnancy is a relatively dangerous, and relatively long term medical condition involving the growing of a human.

Its interesting how many pro life advocates forget that the zygote/embryo/fetus (ZEF) is completely subjected to its carrier's life being sustained, and also to the carrier's decisions, as well.

A pregnant woman who falls down a flight of stairs, or does a belly flop off of a cliff, not knowing the damage that can be done- will be more susceptible to losing the state of being pregnant.

The ZEF has no choice in the matter.. And it is silly to pretend that at any point in time, a ZEF will somehow have better decision making skills than it's maternal carrier.

 

[MajikMyst]

It is really sad how the issue of abortion is always missed.. You hear all these scare tactics about being a baby killer ect. ect.

First I will say that I don't support abortion as a means of birthcontrol and an effort should be made into preventing the pregnancy.

But this issues here are this..

If we ban abortion, that won't end abortion.. Young women will find other ways to end their pregnancies.. They will just no longer have access to a doctor and a clean safe clinic. They will use whatever means they can.. A wire coat hanger or an abortion party at someone garage in Florida.. Then you will see another trend start to creep in.. These young women will start dying due to infection or internal injury.. Not all, but a large portion of them.. Of course when the women die, the unborn babies also die.. So have you actually saved a life?? No.. Potentially, banning abortion can kill more people than the current situation we have now.. I wouldn't call that pro-life..

Another issue is that there are some medical conditions that require an abortion to save the mother from death.. Preclampsia for one.. This condition raises the blood pressure to dangerous levels, and the only cure is to deliver the baby.. Viable or not, the baby must be delivered or mom and baby will surely die.. Again, banning abortion kills more than it saves.. I wouldn't call that pro-life either..

So.. If you are pro-life then you must be for abortion, as that is the only way to actually save lives.. Which is what you claim you are doing in the first place..

If you really want to save lives?? Push for education on safe sex.. Push for government subsidizing of birth control and condoms.. Preventing the pregnancy from happening is the only true way to save lives.. That is the should be the pro-life's position..

Sadly it isn't and that is what makes it a joke..

 

[Care4all]

It is really sad how the issue of abortion is always missed.. You hear all these scare tactics about being a baby killer ect. ect.

First I will say that I don't support abortion as a means of birthcontrol and an effort should be made into preventing the pregnancy.

But this issues here are this..

If we ban abortion, that won't end abortion.. Young women will find other ways to end their pregnancies.. They will just no longer have access to a doctor and a clean safe clinic. They will use whatever means they can.. A wire coat hanger or an abortion party at someone garage in Florida.. Then you will see another trend start to creep in.. These young women will start dying due to infection or internal injury.. Not all, but a large portion of them.. Of course when the women die, the unborn babies also die.. So have you actually saved a life?? No.. Potentially, banning abortion can kill more people than the current situation we have now.. I wouldn't call that pro-life..

Another issue is that there are some medical conditions that require an abortion to save the mother from death.. Preclampsia for one.. This condition raises the blood pressure to dangerous levels, and the only cure is to deliver the baby.. Viable or not, the baby must be delivered or mom and baby will surely die.. Again, banning abortion kills more than it saves.. I wouldn't call that pro-life either..

So.. If you are pro-life then you must be for abortion, as that is the only way to actually save lives.. Which is what you claim you are doing in the first place..

If you really want to save lives?? Push for education on safe sex.. Push for government subsidizing of birth control and condoms.. Preventing the pregnancy from happening is the only true way to save lives.. That is the should be the pro-life's position..

Sadly it isn't and that is what makes it a joke..

My mother in law, who was a Born Again Christian, Church every Sunday and Wednesday for her and every morning when she came to visit us and stay with us, she and I would read the Bible together and she would tell me stories...she was in her 80's, 87 when she passed on last year...the coolest old lady anyone could ever meet...

She lived through the era where women aborted on the street vs the hospital, in back room dirty places and she had a girlfriend who got pregnant by her boyfriend who was sent off to world war 2 who had an abortion and died from it and knew other girls that got sick or harmed themselves enough that they never would be able to have children...

And she was dead set against abortion but did NOT want it to go back to the way it was for the girls when she was a child....she believed whole heartedly that it should be legal, due to all the back alley abortions that happened back in her youth.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

she doesnt have a brain

Coming from the most mean-spirited, souless poster on the board, that really means something.

You haven't got a single clue about me or my personal life off this board.

Why don't you try addressing the actual point/issue, rather than slinging and insult and dodging?

How many of those children have YOU adopted, Allie? You know...the ones that should be born at all costs...

I didn't say anything about your personal life. I refered to you as a soulless and mean spirited poster, dipshit. But it's telling that you carry that over, so now I can assume you're probably the same in real life.

And look at your post and talk to me some more about shit slinging.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

so because people sin and kill their babies, we should make their sin legal?

thats ridiculous tripe

It is really sad how the issue of abortion is always missed.. You hear all these scare tactics about being a baby killer ect. ect.

First I will say that I don't support abortion as a means of birthcontrol and an effort should be made into preventing the pregnancy.

But this issues here are this..

If we ban abortion, that won't end abortion.. Young women will find other ways to end their pregnancies.. They will just no longer have access to a doctor and a clean safe clinic. They will use whatever means they can.. A wire coat hanger or an abortion party at someone garage in Florida.. Then you will see another trend start to creep in.. These young women will start dying due to infection or internal injury.. Not all, but a large portion of them.. Of course when the women die, the unborn babies also die.. So have you actually saved a life?? No.. Potentially, banning abortion can kill more people than the current situation we have now.. I wouldn't call that pro-life..

Another issue is that there are some medical conditions that require an abortion to save the mother from death.. Preclampsia for one.. This condition raises the blood pressure to dangerous levels, and the only cure is to deliver the baby.. Viable or not, the baby must be delivered or mom and baby will surely die.. Again, banning abortion kills more than it saves.. I wouldn't call that pro-life either..

So.. If you are pro-life then you must be for abortion, as that is the only way to actually save lives.. Which is what you claim you are doing in the first place..

If you really want to save lives?? Push for education on safe sex.. Push for government subsidizing of birth control and condoms.. Preventing the pregnancy from happening is the only true way to save lives.. That is the should be the pro-life's position..

Sadly it isn't and that is what makes it a joke..

My mother in law, who was a Born Again Christian, Church every Sunday and Wednesday for her and every morning when she came to visit us and stay with us, she and I would read the Bible together and she would tell me stories...she was in her 80's, 87 when she passed on last year...the coolest old lady anyone could ever meet...

She lived through the era where women aborted on the street vs the hospital, in back room dirty places and she had a girlfriend who got pregnant by her boyfriend who was sent off to world war 2 who had an abortion and died from it and knew other girls that got sick or harmed themselves enough that they never would be able to have children...

And she was dead set against abortion but did NOT want it to go back to the way it was for the girls when she was a child....she believed whole heartedly that it should be legal, due to all the back alley abortions that happened back in her youth.

 

[tigerbob]

PRO -LIFERS ARE A JOKE

Pro-lifers protest abortions and will even kill to make sure that babies are delivered. But after that life is saved they will even kill to make sure it does not have a safe and healthy long life. They are the Tea Party protestors who protest healthcare for those without and spending that fund the jobless, programs and services that keep those babies alive with a long healthy and safe life.

Some of those babies they save are less than perfect and they are the “throw-aways” that end up wards of the state without enough funding to properly take care of them. I saw first hand when I was an aide and I alone was in charge of the night care of 20.

Those un-aborted babies are sent to war to kill and be killed or maimed for life and pro-lifers protest their proper medical care.

Pro-lifers are the biggest joke in this country. They will not take one of those un-aborted babies and take care of them or assist in their care. Pro-lifers should be the last to withhold medical care and sufficient programs and services to assure them a long, safe and healthy life.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

What a crock of shit.

 

[Care4all]

so because people sin and kill their babies, we should make their sin legal?

thats ridiculous tripe

It is really sad how the issue of abortion is always missed.. You hear all these scare tactics about being a baby killer ect. ect.

First I will say that I don't support abortion as a means of birthcontrol and an effort should be made into preventing the pregnancy.

But this issues here are this..

If we ban abortion, that won't end abortion.. Young women will find other ways to end their pregnancies.. They will just no longer have access to a doctor and a clean safe clinic. They will use whatever means they can.. A wire coat hanger or an abortion party at someone garage in Florida.. Then you will see another trend start to creep in.. These young women will start dying due to infection or internal injury.. Not all, but a large portion of them.. Of course when the women die, the unborn babies also die.. So have you actually saved a life?? No.. Potentially, banning abortion can kill more people than the current situation we have now.. I wouldn't call that pro-life..

Another issue is that there are some medical conditions that require an abortion to save the mother from death.. Preclampsia for one.. This condition raises the blood pressure to dangerous levels, and the only cure is to deliver the baby.. Viable or not, the baby must be delivered or mom and baby will surely die.. Again, banning abortion kills more than it saves.. I wouldn't call that pro-life either..

So.. If you are pro-life then you must be for abortion, as that is the only way to actually save lives.. Which is what you claim you are doing in the first place..

If you really want to save lives?? Push for education on safe sex.. Push for government subsidizing of birth control and condoms.. Preventing the pregnancy from happening is the only true way to save lives.. That is the should be the pro-life's position..

Sadly it isn't and that is what makes it a joke..

My mother in law, who was a Born Again Christian, Church every Sunday and Wednesday for her and every morning when she came to visit us and stay with us, she and I would read the Bible together and she would tell me stories...she was in her 80's, 87 when she passed on last year...the coolest old lady anyone could ever meet...

She lived through the era where women aborted on the street vs the hospital, in back room dirty places and she had a girlfriend who got pregnant by her boyfriend who was sent off to world war 2 who had an abortion and died from it and knew other girls that got sick or harmed themselves enough that they never would be able to have children...

And she was dead set against abortion but did NOT want it to go back to the way it was for the girls when she was a child....she believed whole heartedly that it should be legal, due to all the back alley abortions that happened back in her youth.

There are many sins that are legal Martin, prostitution in vegas, adultery, greed, loan sharking, gouging, etc....it does not mean that you as an individual, have to commit these sins....we have our own free will, we make good decisions and bad decisions and can not be thy brother's keeper for every sin they may commit....

And I do not see the value of the unborn child on equal footing with a born human, nor does our government or our society... meaning, I do see them as a human being and very important to our future, but if a fertility clinic were on fire, I would SAVE the living human beings in the building FIRST, before I would go back in to save the frozen embryos stored there.

So, SAVE THE PERSON that is alive first...

 

[tigerbob]

Loan sharking is legal? Didn't know that. Gouging? Like eye gouging? Or jacking the price of gas up in a shortage, which is also illegal.
Pro-lifers are a joke because they think that they've cornered the market in what's right, when clearly they have no clue. They're a bunch of wannabees who think that they should have the right to tell everyone else how to live.

Militant pro-lifers are a joke.

A lot of pro-lifers are just regular folks who have ethical issues with what they see as the taking of human life.

 

[Immanuel]

It is really sad how the issue of abortion is always missed.. You hear all these scare tactics about being a baby killer ect. ect.

First I will say that I don't support abortion as a means of birthcontrol and an effort should be made into preventing the pregnancy.

But this issues here are this..

If we ban abortion, that won't end abortion.. Young women will find other ways to end their pregnancies.. They will just no longer have access to a doctor and a clean safe clinic. They will use whatever means they can.. A wire coat hanger or an abortion party at someone garage in Florida.. Then you will see another trend start to creep in.. These young women will start dying due to infection or internal injury.. Not all, but a large portion of them.. Of course when the women die, the unborn babies also die.. So have you actually saved a life?? No.. Potentially, banning abortion can kill more people than the current situation we have now.. I wouldn't call that pro-life..

Another issue is that there are some medical conditions that require an abortion to save the mother from death.. Preclampsia for one.. This condition raises the blood pressure to dangerous levels, and the only cure is to deliver the baby.. Viable or not, the baby must be delivered or mom and baby will surely die.. Again, banning abortion kills more than it saves.. I wouldn't call that pro-life either..

So.. If you are pro-life then you must be for abortion, as that is the only way to actually save lives.. Which is what you claim you are doing in the first place..

If you really want to save lives?? Push for education on safe sex.. Push for government subsidizing of birth control and condoms.. Preventing the pregnancy from happening is the only true way to save lives.. That is the should be the pro-life's position..

Sadly it isn't and that is what makes it a joke..

I have to say although I come from a different side of the fence than you on this issue. I agree with what you say here for the most part.

Banning abortion won't eliminate it and may lead to some young ladies trying the "do-it-yourself" method although I am not so certain that doesn't happen now. Also, in today's world, everyone knows there are certain drugs they can turn to that will eliminate the problem so the back alley abortions are soon, if not already, things of the past.

There are times when a woman's life is seriously in danger. Defending and protecting her life is as necessary as protecting the life of the baby within her.

I also agree that education is a major key. I do believe teaching abstinance first, note I did not say abstinance alone, but we also need to teach the biology of sex and inform our children of the consequences of sex.

I disagree with the idea of schools giving out birth control. That is not the place of the government and since each young adult is different it is not up to the government to choose when to supply him or her with birth control. That is the responsibility of the parents (and there are two sets involved usually) to take care of.

Immie

 

[tigerbob]

Loan sharking is legal? Didn't know that. Gouging? Like eye gouging? Or jacking the price of gas up in a shortage, which is also illegal.
Pro-lifers are a joke because they think that they've cornered the market in what's right, when clearly they have no clue. They're a bunch of wannabees who think that they should have the right to tell everyone else how to live.

Militant pro-lifers are a joke.

A lot of pro-lifers are just regular folks who have ethical issues with what they see as the taking of human life.

If you're against abortion, don't do it, it's that simple. But leave others to make up their own minds, other people are not your problem.
Just like gay marriage, if you're against it, then don't marry a gay person. But wtf do I care what other people I don't even know get up to?

So long as the law is respected, I don't disagree with any of that. But there's a difference between having the right to tell everyone how to live and having the right to express your opinion.

 

[MajikMyst]

I have to say although I come from a different side of the fence than you on this issue. I agree with what you say here for the most part.

Banning abortion won't eliminate it and may lead to some young ladies trying the "do-it-yourself" method although I am not so certain that doesn't happen now. Also, in today's world, everyone knows there are certain drugs they can turn to that will eliminate the problem so the back alley abortions are soon, if not already, things of the past.

There are times when a woman's life is seriously in danger. Defending and protecting her life is as necessary as protecting the life of the baby within her.

I also agree that education is a major key. I do believe teaching abstinance first, note I did not say abstinance alone, but we also need to teach the biology of sex and inform our children of the consequences of sex.

I disagree with the idea of schools giving out birth control. That is not the place of the government and since each young adult is different it is not up to the government to choose when to supply him or her with birth control. That is the responsibility of the parents (and there are two sets involved usually) to take care of.

Immie

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".


I pasted this to make the point.. Most religious groups do not believe in birthcontrol of any type and they make up about 90% of all abortions over all.. Coincident? Not likely..

While I don't think schools should pass out the pill, they should however educate on condoms and other forms of birthcontrol.. They should also provide the opportunity for young women to see the docror about the pill if thet are so inclinded.. Schools are passing out the flu shot, so what is the difference?

Today, parent can't be responsible to teach their children everything.. Both parents have to work just to be able to maintain the household financially.. Which means kids more and more are raised by day care and schools.. If you don't like that then change the economy and increase pay so one parent can stay home and raise the children.. That is a simple solutioin and another discussion..

 

[Immanuel]

I have to say although I come from a different side of the fence than you on this issue. I agree with what you say here for the most part.

Banning abortion won't eliminate it and may lead to some young ladies trying the "do-it-yourself" method although I am not so certain that doesn't happen now. Also, in today's world, everyone knows there are certain drugs they can turn to that will eliminate the problem so the back alley abortions are soon, if not already, things of the past.

There are times when a woman's life is seriously in danger. Defending and protecting her life is as necessary as protecting the life of the baby within her.

I also agree that education is a major key. I do believe teaching abstinance first, note I did not say abstinance alone, but we also need to teach the biology of sex and inform our children of the consequences of sex.

I disagree with the idea of schools giving out birth control. That is not the place of the government and since each young adult is different it is not up to the government to choose when to supply him or her with birth control. That is the responsibility of the parents (and there are two sets involved usually) to take care of.

Immie

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".


I pasted this to make the point.. Most religious groups do not believe in birthcontrol of any type and they make up about 90% of all abortions over all.. Only 1.3% of abortioins are by women with no religious affiliation.. Coincident? Not likely..

Quick question: is it 23.7% or 1.3%, your numbers conflict. I think the 23.7% is more accurate

While I don't think schools should pass out the pill, they should however educate on condoms and other forms of birthcontrol.. They should also provide the opportunity for young women to see the docror about the pill if thet are so inclinded.. Schools are passing out the flu shot, so what is the difference?

Today, parent can't be responsible to teach their children everything.. Both parents have to work just to be able to maintain the household financially.. Which means kids more and more are raised by day care and schools.. If you don't like that then change the economy and increase pay so one parent can stay home and raise the children.. That is a simple solutioin and another discussion..

90% really? Your numbers don't add up. You said women with no religious affiliation have 23.7% of abortions, but then you also claim 90% of abortion are for women with a religious affiliation. If your 23.7% is accurate then that leaves 76.7% which is a far cry from 90%

Do you have any idea what percentage of Americans claim to have a religious affiliation? Last I saw, it was over 80%... damn close to your 90%. It stands to reason that if 80% of the women in the country claim to be religiously affiliated that 80% of abortions would be religiously affiliated. Since 76.7% of abortions are religiously affiliated, while 80% of women are, then it would seem to me that a larger percentage of non-affiliated women are having abortions than affiliated are. Now, I don't have a link to back up my statements nor do I feel like searching for those figures so you can take my statements for what they are worth as I am willing to do with yours and we can assume that both of us are fairly close in the numbers that we presented.

Also, Christians are not perfect. I sure as hell am not. I called you an F'ng moron last night, which I should not have done. I am not perfect. I screwed up. It wasn't the first time and won't be the last. That I can guarantee you.

Now, there are varying degrees of religious affiliation. There are those devout people who wouldn't miss a day of church if they were on their death bed and then there are those who when asked what their religious affiliation is, say, "Christian" or "Jewish" or "Muslim". When asked when the last time they went to church was they couldn't tell you if they had ever been in a church, but they are Christian... they "just don't go for that organized religion crap".

You and I disagree about the role that schools should play. Education yes! Making doctor's appointments for students... providing medical staff to examine students? I don't think so. That would be an invasion of the parent's rights. I respect your right to believe differently than me and I don't know anything about you, but I have to wonder if you have children and if so, would you want the school physically examining your child without your knowledge. Believe me, I have had an experience with such a thing, you do not want that.

As for parental responsibility, it seems to me again that you may not have any children. It is my responsibility to raise my children (and I have three ranging from 17 - 23) not anyone else's responsibility. I may not do a stand up job at it ever or at all times, but that does not change the fact that it is my responsibility.

Immie

 

[MajikMyst]

You got it before I edited it and corrected it.. Try again..

My point was simply that Abstinence isn't the only option and it is actually one of the weakest.. Unless your child goes to a religious school and is surrounded by like minded children. Then abstinence has a chance of doing some good..

A condomn is darn near 100% effective if used properly.. It also protects against VD.. I really just don't understand the religious's advertion to birth contorl?? Were you a virgin on your wedding day?? My guess is you weren't.. So why expect your children to do the same? Sure you can't try to want them to do better than you.. But they will face the same pressures you did.. Actually they will face more..

I watched a show the other day on teen sex.. Girls as young as 12 are looking for booty calls.. 12!?!?!?! When I was 12 I thought girls were stupid.. They didn't interest me until about late 13 to mid 14..

I would rather be safe than sorry.. Make birth control education a must!! You can preach abstinence all you want.. In the end it is a failed idea..

 

[MajikMyst]

No Christians aren't perfect.. But why do they expect others to be then?? There is no harm in gay marriage.. Yet christians are against it? Why? You have your failings, can't others have theirs?? I don't see anyone trying to descriminate against you because of your failings..

I know a little off topic.. But it also goes down the line of not judging people..

 

[Immanuel]

You got it before I edited it and corrected it.. Try again..

Okay, I see the edit, but then I still have to ask as you still say that 23.7% of abortions are performed on non-affiliated women, but 90% are performed on religious women.

My point was simply that Abstinence isn't the only option and it is actually one of the weakest.. Unless your child goes to a religious school and is surrounded by like minded children. Then abstinence has a chance of doing some good..

Abstinence is the ONLY option that prevents 100% of all unwanted pregnancies and all STD's. Unfortunately, despite the fact that we teach this to our children... they happen to be their parent's children and... well, did you do everything your parents told you to do? I didn't. Abstinence works when it is practiced... when it is practiced. However, it is not always practiced in or out of private religious schools.

A condomn is darn near 100% effective if used properly.. It also protects against VD.. I really just don't understand the religious's advertion to birth contorl??

I've had a condom break. It is close to 100% effective but not 100% effective. Abstinence is.

I am religious although I prefer saying that I am a man of faith. Although a member of a church, I am not a fan of organized religion. I do not understand the aversion to birth control either and quite frankly, I am not so certain that there is that much of an aversion. I think you will find an awful large percentage of religious individuals who practice other methods of birth control than abstinence.

"Were you a virgin on your wedding day?? My guess is you weren't.

You would be correct.

So why expect your children to do the same?

I don't expect them to do the same, but I try to encourage them to do so for many reasons.

Sure you can't try to want them to do better than you.. But they will face the same pressures you did.. Actually they will face more..

I agree, so I can only teach them what I know, encourage them and pray for the best. You are also correct in that they will face more pressures and temptations in this world than I did. Again, I can only encourage them and pray for the best.

I have always told them and meant it when I said it, that I would always love them no matter what. If my daughter came to me and said that she was pregnant nothing would change my love for her, even if she came and said that she wanted an abortion. Both girls know our (my wife and I) feelings about abortion and quite frankly knowing them, I think they agree with me. I would expect that if they could not take care of the child themselves they would put it up for adoption... and I'll guarantee that I would be the first in line to adopt.

I watched a show the other day on teen sex.. Girls as young as 12 are looking for booty calls.. 12!?!?!?! When I was 12 I thought girls were stupid.. They didn't interest me until about late 13 to mid 14..

Some of that is played up by the girls themselves, some by the network and some of it is real. But in today's society, sex is sold by the media in every outlet. Children are constantly bombarded by it. I don't see how we as a society can blame them for screwing up when we are the ones that stuck the carrot in front of their faces.

I would rather be safe than sorry.

Funny you should make that statement because that is exactly my reasoning for being anti-abortion. So many pro-choice people say that they believe that the fetus is not alive, some even claim it is not human and therefore abortion is no big deal. Well, I don't know that a fetus is not alive and, to quote you, "I would rather be safe than sorry.".

Make birth control education a must!!

It already is. Every school district that I know of teaches sex education to kids from at least the fifth grade and they teach safe sex/birth control as they should. I don't have a problem with that at all.

The problem I have with your statements was in allowing the schools to medically examine children without their parent's consent.

You can preach abstinence all you want.. In the end it is a failed idea..

Well, as I have said, I believe that abstinence should be taught and encouraged. I also believe that education about the facts of life is a must. Not all teenagers are going to have sex. Not all are going to listen to the message about abstinence. Do all our children listen to mom and dad, when mom and dad say do not smoke or don't do drugs? No, they don't and thus we have to help them in whatever manner we can.

No Christians aren't perfect.. But why do they expect others to be then??

I don't nor do other Christians that I know. I have a major problem with Christians that do and there are plenty of them out there. I'm not one of them. I believe that we are all sinful and that we need Jesus Christ as our mediator between us and God. I believe that Jesus Christ is as willing to mediate for me as he is for a lesbian. I have no claim on God's grace. It is his free gift to me and you.

There is no harm in gay marriage.

You don't know me very well do you?

First, I believe that marriage is the realm of the church, should remain as such and that the federal government should keep it's nose out of religious affairs. I believe that the federal government should adopt a "civil union" idea for all couples gay or straight and let the church run the marriage business. If a church decides to marry gays then that church has the right to do so, but if it chooses otherwise then so be it.

Next, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I am convinced of it. I also believe that we are to repent of our sins. Unfortunately, I don't think... strike that, I know I still commit sins that I wish I could defeat. If God is not willing to forgive the sinful homosexual, then how the heck can I turn to God and ask him to forgive me when I also have sins that do at times control me? Let's put it this way, I can't.

Yet christians are against it? Why?

I'm a Christian. Are all Christians against it? Do you expect me to answer for all Christians? I hope not.

You have your failings, can't others have theirs??

Do I really have to answer that again?

I don't see anyone trying to descriminate against you because of your failings.

You must be kidding! I am a Christian and because of that, I am hated by many liberals. Not all, but many. Remember, I am one of those hypocrites that judge everyone else yet commit the same kind of sins!

I know a little off topic.. But it also goes down the line of not judging people..

Not off topic at all... in fact, it fits very well. We all judge others. It is a sad truth that we as humans will never change. Hopefully, we will learn to judge others fairly if we must judge them at all.

/salute

Immie

 

[JD_2B]

I have to say although I come from a different side of the fence than you on this issue. I agree with what you say here for the most part.

Banning abortion won't eliminate it and may lead to some young ladies trying the "do-it-yourself" method although I am not so certain that doesn't happen now. Also, in today's world, everyone knows there are certain drugs they can turn to that will eliminate the problem so the back alley abortions are soon, if not already, things of the past.

There are times when a woman's life is seriously in danger. Defending and protecting her life is as necessary as protecting the life of the baby within her.

I also agree that education is a major key. I do believe teaching abstinance first, note I did not say abstinance alone, but we also need to teach the biology of sex and inform our children of the consequences of sex.

I disagree with the idea of schools giving out birth control. That is not the place of the government and since each young adult is different it is not up to the government to choose when to supply him or her with birth control. That is the responsibility of the parents (and there are two sets involved usually) to take care of.

Immie

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".


I pasted this to make the point.. Most religious groups do not believe in birthcontrol of any type and they make up about 90% of all abortions over all.. Only 1.3% of abortioins are by women with no religious affiliation.. Coincident? Not likely..

Quick question: is it 23.7% or 1.3%, your numbers conflict. I think the 23.7% is more accurate

While I don't think schools should pass out the pill, they should however educate on condoms and other forms of birthcontrol.. They should also provide the opportunity for young women to see the docror about the pill if thet are so inclinded.. Schools are passing out the flu shot, so what is the difference?

Today, parent can't be responsible to teach their children everything.. Both parents have to work just to be able to maintain the household financially.. Which means kids more and more are raised by day care and schools.. If you don't like that then change the economy and increase pay so one parent can stay home and raise the children.. That is a simple solutioin and another discussion..

90% really? Your numbers don't add up. You said women with no religious affiliation have 23.7% of abortions, but then you also claim 90% of abortion are for women with a religious affiliation. If your 23.7% is accurate then that leaves 76.7% which is a far cry from 90%

Do you have any idea what percentage of Americans claim to have a religious affiliation? Last I saw, it was over 80%... damn close to your 90%. It stands to reason that if 80% of the women in the country claim to be religiously affiliated that 80% of abortions would be religiously affiliated. Since 76.7% of abortions are religiously affiliated, while 80% of women are, then it would seem to me that a larger percentage of non-affiliated women are having abortions than affiliated are. Now, I don't have a link to back up my statements nor do I feel like searching for those figures so you can take my statements for what they are worth as I am willing to do with yours and we can assume that both of us are fairly close in the numbers that we presented.

How is that? It is statistically saying that 76% of abortions are had by people of religious affiliation. That doesn't mean that 80% of the population has abortions every year. That is saying that OUT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ABORT.. This many people claim to be this religion and this many claim to be that religious affiliation, etc. And these statistics that he is giving are wrong- at least according to the nationally recognized Alan Guttmacher Institute:

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States
Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]
About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children[7]
The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1]
• Each year, about two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.[3]

Also, Christians are not perfect. I sure as hell am not. I called you an F'ng moron last night, which I should not have done. I am not perfect. I screwed up. It wasn't the first time and won't be the last. That I can guarantee you.

Pathetic attempt at an apology- After using foul language when losing a debate, and now also trying to minimize the role Christians play in the abortion rates.. Typical.

Now, there are varying degrees of religious affiliation. There are those devout people who wouldn't miss a day of church if they were on their death bed and then there are those who when asked what their religious affiliation is, say, "Christian" or "Jewish" or "Muslim". When asked when the last time they went to church was they couldn't tell you if they had ever been in a church, but they are Christian... they "just don't go for that organized religion crap".

Oh so they are religious when you are debating the viability of God or the worldly belief in Christianity, like you said before "80%"- but they are just not "very" religious or are not "religious enough" when it doesn't suit you? LMAO!!

You and I disagree about the role that schools should play. Education yes! Making doctor's appointments for students... providing medical staff to examine students? I don't think so. That would be an invasion of the parent's rights. I respect your right to believe differently than me and I don't know anything about you, but I have to wonder if you have children and if so, would you want the school physically examining your child without your knowledge. Believe me, I have had an experience with such a thing, you do not want that.

He is not talking about making doctors appointments- just being allowed to give the kids a list of free clinics, places to get free contraceptives, etc.. This should count as education, as well as empowering these kids, who are not really even "kids", so to speak, but more like young adults who have not yet reached majority. Some of them (myself included) knew all there was to know about putting a condom on, WELL before it was time to actually have sex. 5 years prior, in fact. I went to a college seminar on HIV, when I was 12, and taught these adults who were 6 years or more older than I was about sheepskin condom perforations being too large to protect. I could have put a condom on better than they could, and I was not at all interested in sex or even masturbation yet, lol

As for parental responsibility, it seems to me again that you may not have any children. It is my responsibility to raise my children (and I have three ranging from 17 - 23) not anyone else's responsibility. I may not do a stand up job at it ever or at all times, but that does not change the fact that it is my responsibility.

Immie

How does being pro choice and wanting your children to be allowed by law to make their own decisions about their health and sexuality, somehow equate to a person not having any children??? How does the fact that you being a parent somehow make the responsibility of the other people who are concerned about children's rights any less?

I assume that because I have *only* one child, that you are now going to belittle my level of responsibility or my capability???

PS- I strongly suggest that you do NOT take this route, Immie- Don't be a douche.

 

[Immanuel]

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".


I pasted this to make the point.. Most religious groups do not believe in birthcontrol of any type and they make up about 90% of all abortions over all.. Only 1.3% of abortioins are by women with no religious affiliation.. Coincident? Not likely..

Quick question: is it 23.7% or 1.3%, your numbers conflict. I think the 23.7% is more accurate



90% really? Your numbers don't add up. You said women with no religious affiliation have 23.7% of abortions, but then you also claim 90% of abortion are for women with a religious affiliation. If your 23.7% is accurate then that leaves 76.7% which is a far cry from 90%

Do you have any idea what percentage of Americans claim to have a religious affiliation? Last I saw, it was over 80%... damn close to your 90%. It stands to reason that if 80% of the women in the country claim to be religiously affiliated that 80% of abortions would be religiously affiliated. Since 76.7% of abortions are religiously affiliated, while 80% of women are, then it would seem to me that a larger percentage of non-affiliated women are having abortions than affiliated are. Now, I don't have a link to back up my statements nor do I feel like searching for those figures so you can take my statements for what they are worth as I am willing to do with yours and we can assume that both of us are fairly close in the numbers that we presented.

How is that? It is statistically saying that 76% of abortions are had by people of religious affiliation. That doesn't mean that 80% of the population has abortions every year. That is saying that OUT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ABORT.. This many people claim to be this religion and this many claim to be that religious affiliation, etc. And these statistics that he is giving are wrong- at least according to the nationally recognized Alan Guttmacher Institute:

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States
Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]
About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children[7]
The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1]
• Each year, about two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.[3]

If you go back and read my first reply to him, you will see where I quoted his original post and he made the contradictory statements. I asked him to explain his remarks and as he said, he corrected his posting error, but not entirely while I was responding to him. He made the remark that 90% of all abortions are performed on women with religious affiliations but then just a sentence or two later he made the statement that 23.7% of abortions are performed on women with no religious affiliation. As I am sure you can see, those two statements contradict each other.

Pathetic attempt at an apology- After using foul language when losing a debate, and now also trying to minimize the role Christians play in the abortion rates.. Typical.

Maybe so, but at least I am man enough to offer an apology and after your continued unprovoked rudeness to me, it is evident that you are not.

Oh so they are religious when you are debating the viability of God or the worldly belief in Christianity, like you said before "80%"- but they are just not "very" religious or are not "religious enough" when it doesn't suit you? LMAO!!

No, some of them are not religious at all and some are very religious. Simply saying you are Christian doesn't make you Christian and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it does make it convenient for people like you who want to claim that all abortions are performed on Christian women and then say that Christians are hypocrites because women who are not Christian don't have abortions. LMAO. How convenient for you.

If 80% of the women in this country claim to be Christian, it would seem natural that 80% of abortions are performed on Christian women. The degree of their faith is immaterial. Yet, when MM makes the comment that 90% of abortions are performed on "Christian" women he is insinuating that everyone of those Christian women are devout church going hypocrites which simply is not the case.

You and I disagree about the role that schools should play. Education yes! Making doctor's appointments for students... providing medical staff to examine students? I don't think so. That would be an invasion of the parent's rights. I respect your right to believe differently than me and I don't know anything about you, but I have to wonder if you have children and if so, would you want the school physically examining your child without your knowledge. Believe me, I have had an experience with such a thing, you do not want that.

He is not talking about making doctors appointments- just being allowed to give the kids a list of free clinics, places to get free contraceptives, etc.. This should count as education, as well as empowering these kids, who are not really even "kids", so to speak, but more like young adults who have not yet reached majority. Some of them (myself included) knew all there was to know about putting a condom on, WELL before it was time to actually have sex. 5 years prior, in fact. I went to a college seminar on HIV, when I was 12, and taught these adults who were 6 years or more older than I was about sheepskin condom perforations being too large to protect. I could have put a condom on better than they could, and I was not at all interested in sex or even masturbation yet, lol

That does not change the fact that it is not the school's right to provide medical services and that is what you are speaking of to students. They won't even administer aspirin without a frigging doctor's order and you want them to tell kids to go see those nice ladies at Planned Parenthood who are going to show them the joys of "free sex"?

As for parental responsibility, it seems to me again that you may not have any children. It is my responsibility to raise my children (and I have three ranging from 17 - 23) not anyone else's responsibility. I may not do a stand up job at it ever or at all times, but that does not change the fact that it is my responsibility.

Immie

How does being pro choice and wanting your children to be allowed by law to make their own decisions about their health and sexuality, somehow equate to a person not having any children??? How does the fact that you being a parent somehow make the responsibility of the other people who are concerned about children's rights any less?

Maybe if you actually read his comments rather than skipping over his so that you can attack me with every breath you might answer your own question. It was not his statements about being pro-choice or allowing them to make their own decisions that prompted that statement, it was his statement about pushing off parental responsibility on the schools. I realize that you, along with so many other liberals won't except responsibility for your actions and you blame everyone else, just as you are blaming me, for everything, but the fact is that as a parent you are responsible not only for your child's actions but to your child.

I assume that because I have *only* one child, that you are now going to belittle my level of responsibility or my capability???

Absolutely not. I would hope you do see a responsibility to your child and I imagine that you do. I would also assume that you are as capable if not more so of raising a child as I am.

Simply because you and I don't agree on this subject doesn't make either one of us bad people although, I suspect you will come back with something like I am evil incarnate because I think that a woman should make her choice before she conceives a child not afterwords.

PS- I strongly suggest that you do NOT take this route, Immie- Don't be a douche.

I already am a douche, just ask yourself. You seem to hate me because I commented a couple of days ago on something you said and basically only tried to start up a dialogue with you. I don't agree with you on the subject but I don't hate you because you see the abortion issue in a different light than I do. I come here to discuss things with people who see things differently than I do, because I can learn more from someone like you than I can from someone on another forum that agrees with me on this or any other subject.

When I first started posting on message boards, I was devoutly Pro-life and I will admit to having fit very nicely in what would be considered the pockets of the Religious Right. I thought every person who was "Pro-choice" salivated at the idea of taking the life of an unborn child. Okay, that is hyperbolic, but you get the idea. Then I began to have a discussion with many of the liberal ladies who were devoutly pro-choice and quite frankly, I learned that many of them, if not most of them, disliked abortion as much as I did. They simply viewed the government's role in the decision differently than I did. I learned a lot of things from them that I did not know. I have not changed my mind on abortion, but I now know that there is a clear definition between being Pro-choice and being a proponent of abortion.

A couple of days ago, I tried to open up such a dialogue with you. I don't know what I said or even if I did say anything to offend you. I called you Lawyer to be. There was no slam intended in that. I was recognizing what it appears that your handle is saying, something that I am not sure everyone on this board will recognize. I actually meant it as a complement. I have worked for two law firms and they were the best places to work. Good, caring employers. I have nothing but respect for them. So if you thought I was being rude, you were wrong.

I also said that if you can sell what you were selling you would make a fine lawyer. I'm sorry, you probably didn't realize that I was not trying to be rude and it probably was taken as a rude comment. But, your points on religion were clearly taken out of context and it was in fact an attack on my faith.

I also contradicted you. I know that this is probably my greatest sin! How dare lowly me, a douche, contradict you? I can't apologize for that, because that should be why you come here. I would hope that you don't think you are the most intelligent person posting on the board and that we should all sit on our haunches and do nothing but listen when you speak.

Immie