Philadelphia moves to dismantle Christopher Columbus statue

[BlueGin]

Someone else would have found the continent, and considering the technological level of the locals, they were doomed the second the Europeans had ships that could reliably cross the Atlantic and return.

That doesn't mean we should honor them.

He was an important historical figure, and he has been "Adopted" by Italian Americans as a symbol of us here in America.

Why, just because progs are angry right now, should their desires override ours? (I'm 1/2 Italian heritage, Napolitan/Piedmontese)

Progressives think they own history. These are the same assholes that come to NM and insist that the Spanish culture be destroyed because they don’t like it.

 

[Hellbilly]

Why not just make another holiday for native americans?

We did that in Vermont. I'm good with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/20/vermont-passes-bill-abolishing-columbus-day-favor-indigenous-peoples-day/

 

[OldLady]

Someone else would have found the continent, and considering the technological level of the locals, they were doomed the second the Europeans had ships that could reliably cross the Atlantic and return.

That doesn't mean we should honor them.

So don't! No one is making you.
I have a question. In Maine, we have changed Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. I personally hate the name. Indigenous Peoples is such an academic term; no one uses it but college professors and Canadians. And why on earth would anyone want to celebrate the day that was the death knell of the Native American people?

At least, that's what my reaction was. I don't care what they call the holiday, and a holiday to celebrate the Native Americans is absolutely fine with me. It just seems to be a very poor choice of name and date, all around.

But how do YOU feel about it?

 

[OldLady]

This might have something to do with it.

Like many European explorers, Christopher Columbus encountered indigenous people throughout his voyages. There are three main sources of controversy involving his interactions with the indigenous people he labeled “Indians”: the use of violence and slavery, the forced conversion of native peoples to Christianity and the introduction of a host of new diseases that would have dramatic long-term effects on native people in the Americas.

In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West Indies and subjected them to extreme violence and brutality. On his famous first voyage in 1492, Columbus landed on an unknown Caribbean island after an arduous three-month journey.

On his first day in the New World, he ordered six of the natives to be seized, writing in his journal that he believed they would be good servants. Throughout his years in the New World, Columbus enacted policies of forced labor in which natives were put to work for the sake of profits. Later, Columbus sent thousands of peaceful Taino “Indians” from the island of Hispaniola to Spain to be sold. Many died en route.

In addition to the controversy over enslavement and violent rule, the “Age of Exploration” that Columbus helped lead had the additional consequence of bringing new diseases to the New World which would, over time, devastate the native populations of many New World islands and communities.

He brought slavery and disease with him. He was a monster.

The Indians had slaves from other tribes. Slavery was not a new thing.

True, but it was handled differently, at least in North America. Slaves were taken in attacks on enemies, but the slaves were eventually assimilated into the tribe, usually in a few years. It was nothing like the institutional and massive slavery system we built.

 

[OldLady]

Why not just make another holiday for native americans?

We did that in Vermont. I'm good with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/20/vermont-passes-bill-abolishing-columbus-day-favor-indigenous-peoples-day/

When is it?

 

[martybegan]

Why not just make another holiday for native americans?

We did that in Vermont. I'm good with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/20/vermont-passes-bill-abolishing-columbus-day-favor-indigenous-peoples-day/

No, they didn't just make another holiday, they abolished Columbus day.

 

[Hellbilly]

So don't! No one is making you.
I have a question. In Maine, we have changed Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. I personally hate the name. Indigenous Peoples is such an academic term; no one uses it but college professors and Canadians. And why on earth would anyone want to celebrate the day that was the death knell of the Native American people?

At least, that's what my reaction was. I don't care what they call the holiday, and a holiday to celebrate the Native Americans is absolutely fine with me. It just seems to be a very poor choice of name and date, all around.

But how do YOU feel about it?

WE did the same thing here. I fully support it. I look at it as a day to remember our past. I'm not really the type of person who objects to a name. Its the meaning that matters.

I spend that day visiting my friends at the Ganienkeh reservation in Altona, NY.

 

[martybegan]

This might have something to do with it.

Like many European explorers, Christopher Columbus encountered indigenous people throughout his voyages. There are three main sources of controversy involving his interactions with the indigenous people he labeled “Indians”: the use of violence and slavery, the forced conversion of native peoples to Christianity and the introduction of a host of new diseases that would have dramatic long-term effects on native people in the Americas.

In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West Indies and subjected them to extreme violence and brutality. On his famous first voyage in 1492, Columbus landed on an unknown Caribbean island after an arduous three-month journey.

On his first day in the New World, he ordered six of the natives to be seized, writing in his journal that he believed they would be good servants. Throughout his years in the New World, Columbus enacted policies of forced labor in which natives were put to work for the sake of profits. Later, Columbus sent thousands of peaceful Taino “Indians” from the island of Hispaniola to Spain to be sold. Many died en route.

In addition to the controversy over enslavement and violent rule, the “Age of Exploration” that Columbus helped lead had the additional consequence of bringing new diseases to the New World which would, over time, devastate the native populations of many New World islands and communities.

He brought slavery and disease with him. He was a monster.

The Indians had slaves from other tribes. Slavery was not a new thing.

True, but it was handled differently, at least in North America. Slaves were taken in attacks on enemies, but the slaves were eventually assimilated into the tribe, usually in a few years. It was nothing like the institutional and massive slavery system we built.

Actually, if the winning tribe got tired of the slaves they probably just killed them off. People have to stop imparting the morality of today on ANY group in the past.

 

[Hellbilly]

Why not just make another holiday for native americans?

We did that in Vermont. I'm good with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/20/vermont-passes-bill-abolishing-columbus-day-favor-indigenous-peoples-day/

When is it?

Columbus Day

 

[TheParser]

Will the mob also demand the removal of any statues of William Penn?

If they do, it will be because of Mr. Penn's ethnicity.

Of course, those ignoramuses probably do not even know who Mr. Penn was.

 

[OldLady]

This might have something to do with it.

Like many European explorers, Christopher Columbus encountered indigenous people throughout his voyages. There are three main sources of controversy involving his interactions with the indigenous people he labeled “Indians”: the use of violence and slavery, the forced conversion of native peoples to Christianity and the introduction of a host of new diseases that would have dramatic long-term effects on native people in the Americas.

In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West Indies and subjected them to extreme violence and brutality. On his famous first voyage in 1492, Columbus landed on an unknown Caribbean island after an arduous three-month journey.

On his first day in the New World, he ordered six of the natives to be seized, writing in his journal that he believed they would be good servants. Throughout his years in the New World, Columbus enacted policies of forced labor in which natives were put to work for the sake of profits. Later, Columbus sent thousands of peaceful Taino “Indians” from the island of Hispaniola to Spain to be sold. Many died en route.

In addition to the controversy over enslavement and violent rule, the “Age of Exploration” that Columbus helped lead had the additional consequence of bringing new diseases to the New World which would, over time, devastate the native populations of many New World islands and communities.

He brought slavery and disease with him. He was a monster.

The Indians had slaves from other tribes. Slavery was not a new thing.

True, but it was handled differently, at least in North America. Slaves were taken in attacks on enemies, but the slaves were eventually assimilated into the tribe, usually in a few years. It was nothing like the institutional and massive slavery system we built.

Actually, if the winning tribe got tired of the slaves they probably just killed them off. People have to stop imparting the morality of today on ANY group in the past.

I'm not. It varied by tribe. The ones I had read about before they were assimilated/adopted. But not all.

The ways in which captives were treated differed widely among Native American groups. Captives could be enslaved for life, killed, or adopted. In some cases, captives were only adopted after a period of slavery. For example, the Iroquoian peoples (not just the Iroquois tribes) often adopted captives, but for religious reasons there was a process, procedures, and many seasons when such adoptions were delayed until the proper spiritual times.

In many cases, new tribes adopted captives to replace warriors killed during a raid.[1][2] Warrior captives were sometimes made to undergo ritual mutilation or torture that could end in death, as part of a spiritual grief ritual for relatives slain in battle.[1][2] Adoptees were expected to fill the economic, military, and familial roles of the departed loved ones, to fit into the societal shoes of the dead relative, and maintain the spirit power of the tribe.

Captured individuals were sometimes allowed to assimilate into the tribe, and would later produce a family within the tribe.[1][2] The Creek, who engaged in this practice and had a matrilineal system, treated children born of slaves and Creek women as full members of their mothers' clans and of the tribe, as property and hereditary leadership passed through the maternal line. In the cultural practices of the Iroquoian peoples, also rooted in a matrilineal system with men and women having equal value, any child would have the status determined by the woman's clan. More typically, tribes took women and children captives for adoption, as they tended to adapt more easily into new ways.

Several tribes held captives as hostages for payment.[1][2] Various tribes also practiced debt slavery or imposed slavery on tribal members who had committed crimes; full tribal status would be restored as the enslaved worked off their obligations to the tribal society.

Slavery among Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

 

[martybegan]

This might have something to do with it.

Like many European explorers, Christopher Columbus encountered indigenous people throughout his voyages. There are three main sources of controversy involving his interactions with the indigenous people he labeled “Indians”: the use of violence and slavery, the forced conversion of native peoples to Christianity and the introduction of a host of new diseases that would have dramatic long-term effects on native people in the Americas.

In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West Indies and subjected them to extreme violence and brutality. On his famous first voyage in 1492, Columbus landed on an unknown Caribbean island after an arduous three-month journey.

On his first day in the New World, he ordered six of the natives to be seized, writing in his journal that he believed they would be good servants. Throughout his years in the New World, Columbus enacted policies of forced labor in which natives were put to work for the sake of profits. Later, Columbus sent thousands of peaceful Taino “Indians” from the island of Hispaniola to Spain to be sold. Many died en route.

In addition to the controversy over enslavement and violent rule, the “Age of Exploration” that Columbus helped lead had the additional consequence of bringing new diseases to the New World which would, over time, devastate the native populations of many New World islands and communities.

He brought slavery and disease with him. He was a monster.

The Indians had slaves from other tribes. Slavery was not a new thing.

True, but it was handled differently, at least in North America. Slaves were taken in attacks on enemies, but the slaves were eventually assimilated into the tribe, usually in a few years. It was nothing like the institutional and massive slavery system we built.

Actually, if the winning tribe got tired of the slaves they probably just killed them off. People have to stop imparting the morality of today on ANY group in the past.

I'm not. It varied by tribe. The ones I had read about before they were assimilated/adopted. But not all.

The ways in which captives were treated differed widely among Native American groups. Captives could be enslaved for life, killed, or adopted. In some cases, captives were only adopted after a period of slavery. For example, the Iroquoian peoples (not just the Iroquois tribes) often adopted captives, but for religious reasons there was a process, procedures, and many seasons when such adoptions were delayed until the proper spiritual times.

In many cases, new tribes adopted captives to replace warriors killed during a raid.[1][2] Warrior captives were sometimes made to undergo ritual mutilation or torture that could end in death, as part of a spiritual grief ritual for relatives slain in battle.[1][2] Adoptees were expected to fill the economic, military, and familial roles of the departed loved ones, to fit into the societal shoes of the dead relative, and maintain the spirit power of the tribe.

Captured individuals were sometimes allowed to assimilate into the tribe, and would later produce a family within the tribe.[1][2] The Creek, who engaged in this practice and had a matrilineal system, treated children born of slaves and Creek women as full members of their mothers' clans and of the tribe, as property and hereditary leadership passed through the maternal line. In the cultural practices of the Iroquoian peoples, also rooted in a matrilineal system with men and women having equal value, any child would have the status determined by the woman's clan. More typically, tribes took women and children captives for adoption, as they tended to adapt more easily into new ways.

Several tribes held captives as hostages for payment.[1][2] Various tribes also practiced debt slavery or imposed slavery on tribal members who had committed crimes; full tribal status would be restored as the enslaved worked off their obligations to the tribal society.

Slavery among Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

Interesting, but in the end their moral guidelines sometimes allowed the wholesale slaughter of the losing tribe or group.

 

[Fang]

Another white liberal with a pointless gesture blacks don't need. Meanwhile the carnage continues on blacks in the inner cities. But, let's make sure we pretend we care by removing another statue of a white man.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

All those stories we heard about him finding the New World, and a government wants to take down his statue? History is history for a reason, you can't alter it, it's part of your character as a nation. Where you were from the beginning to now, is all due to incremental steps and changes.


Philadelphia moves to dismantle Christopher Columbus statue

Mayor Jim Kenney announced in a Twitter post that Philadelphia is moving to dismantle the Christopher Columbus statue in Marconi Plaza on South Broad Street.


He tweeted on Wednesday: “Part of reckoning with the legacy of systemic racism means reconsidering what figures deserve to be commemorated in our public spaces. On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve the removal of the Christopher Columbus statue.”

Jim Kenney
✔@PhillyMayor


Part of reckoning with the legacy of systemic racism means reconsidering what figures deserve to be commemorated in our public spaces.

On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve the removal of the Christopher Columbus statue. https://www.phila.gov/2020-06-24-the-future-of-the-christopher-columbus-statue-in-marconi-plaza/ …

The future of the Christopher Columbus Statue in Marconi Plaza | Office of the Mayor
On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve removal of the Christopher Columbus statue from Marconi Plaza.
phila.gov
454
3:06 PM - Jun 24, 2020
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551 people are talking about this


In Philadelphia, a city with a deep Italian heritage, Columbus is celebrated with an annual holiday parade, and supporters said they considered him an emblem of their heritage.

The city added about the announcement: "Christopher Columbus became a symbol of Italian communities’ contributions to U.S. history, but scholars and historians have uncovered first-hand documentation establishing that his arrival in the Americas also marked the beginning of the displacement and genocide of Indigenous people. In recent weeks, clashes between those individuals who support the statue of Christopher Columbus in Marconi Plaza and those who are distressed by its existence have deteriorated to a concerning public safety situation. It is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue.”

Well, now that we know what Columbus was really like, I suppose most people will view his statue with a different perspective, but I don't see why it needs to be removed. He's not honored for being a slaver. He's honored for having the sheer guts to test a theory that if you sail west from Europe, you will arrive in India. He had no idea how long it would take or what they would encounter and he was taking his life in his hands in a big way. Before the Bahamas showed up on the horizon, things were getting pretty damned tense.

THAT is why he is honored and remembered, and even though the Vikings had been in Canada and upper New England, they apparently didn't tell anyone about it. So Europe actually found out about North and South America thanks to Columbus. Once he'd done it, others followed and figured out it was actually two massive continents full of goodies to grab as fast as one can.

Just like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, General Grant, yes, slavery was involved. That was the times they lived in. I do not agree with taking down their statues or renaming anything that was named in their honor. Just like with Columbus, we can add information to their stories, tell a more balanced viewpoint. But you don't put these movers and shakers in the trash for a tangential issue that had nothing to do with their achievements.

Can we get you to speak to the masses who are rioting and looting? You seem to be a very rational person...

 

[esalla]

All those stories we heard about him finding the New World, and a government wants to take down his statue? History is history for a reason, you can't alter it, it's part of your character as a nation. Where you were from the beginning to now, is all due to incremental steps and changes.


Philadelphia moves to dismantle Christopher Columbus statue

Mayor Jim Kenney announced in a Twitter post that Philadelphia is moving to dismantle the Christopher Columbus statue in Marconi Plaza on South Broad Street.


He tweeted on Wednesday: “Part of reckoning with the legacy of systemic racism means reconsidering what figures deserve to be commemorated in our public spaces. On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve the removal of the Christopher Columbus statue.”

Jim Kenney

✔@PhillyMayor
https://twitter.com/PhillyMayor/status/1275867975740948480

Part of reckoning with the legacy of systemic racism means reconsidering what figures deserve to be commemorated in our public spaces.

On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve the removal of the Christopher Columbus statue. https://www.phila.gov/2020-06-24-the-future-of-the-christopher-columbus-statue-in-marconi-plaza/ …

The future of the Christopher Columbus Statue in Marconi Plaza | Office of the Mayor
On July 22, the City will ask the Philadelphia Art Commission to approve removal of the Christopher Columbus statue from Marconi Plaza.
phila.gov

454
3:06 PM - Jun 24, 2020
Twitter Ads info and privacy

551 people are talking about this



In Philadelphia, a city with a deep Italian heritage, Columbus is celebrated with an annual holiday parade, and supporters said they considered him an emblem of their heritage.

The city added about the announcement: "Christopher Columbus became a symbol of Italian communities’ contributions to U.S. history, but scholars and historians have uncovered first-hand documentation establishing that his arrival in the Americas also marked the beginning of the displacement and genocide of Indigenous people. In recent weeks, clashes between those individuals who support the statue of Christopher Columbus in Marconi Plaza and those who are distressed by its existence have deteriorated to a concerning public safety situation. It is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue.”

Haven't you heard. Leroy the Zulu discovered america

 

[22lcidw]

Someone else would have found the continent, and considering the technological level of the locals, they were doomed the second the Europeans had ships that could reliably cross the Atlantic and return.

That doesn't mean we should honor them.

So don't! No one is making you.
I have a question. In Maine, we have changed Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. I personally hate the name. Indigenous Peoples is such an academic term; no one uses it but college professors and Canadians. And why on earth would anyone want to celebrate the day that was the death knell of the Native American people?

At least, that's what my reaction was. I don't care what they call the holiday, and a holiday to celebrate the Native Americans is absolutely fine with me. It just seems to be a very poor choice of name and date, all around.

But how do YOU feel about it?

Give up most or all of your wealth and material goods. Until you do that, you are frauds. These agendas require pain. Lots of pain. You seem to dish it our on others.