Pentatonic Scale ? Why ?

[badger2]

Yes they're cookin', though doing it without looking at the keyboard is another thing altogether.

 

[the other mike]

Yes they're cookin', though doing it without looking at the keyboard is another thing altogether.

This is something that blew me away.
Andy Timmons says that he memorizes all his original songs pretty much note for note
without transcribing or writing anything down. In this sit-down, Martin asks him the obvious question - "How do remember it all without writing it down. ?? ( I don't think he really answers - he's just a musical genius...)

They do some sick improvising together too( never played together before this interview)
Like Brisco Darling says "Just jump in where ya can and hang on...a one and a two...."

 

[badger2]

Yes, as we have just pointed out on the sax thread, the idea is to learn to play without sheet music or even looking at their instrument. Memory is directly and physically transferred to the instrument in real time.

 

[the other mike]

Yes, as we have just pointed out on the sax thread, the idea is to learn to play without sheet music or even looking at their instrument. Memory is directly and physically transferred to the instrument in real time.

There was a time when I didn't know pentatonics from pentacostal..
So I'm more or less a hobby guitarist ( off and on for 40 years) whose only performed onstage
a few times with an R&B band back in the 90's called Quiet Storm
in an after hours club. I was one of the few white folks in the place, didn't know what I was doing
but faked it good enough to do some Sade and TLC songs, a couple originals we worked out. It was fun.....my friend Jermaine could sound just like Sade and he knew all the words by heart....chicks were melting when did smooth operator and taboo .... But the acoustics was terrible in there, so I let the drums and keyboard player lead, just kinda followed the bass player if I got lost. ( I became good at lip-reading "D-minor...") I'm thinking of going back out sometime with a blues band, and may even open up a club with a friend from Dallas. I wake up every day anxious to see how much better I'm getting ( at 58 hopefully before arthritis or tendinitis kick in )

Anyway, I've noticed a lot of singers have been
using cheat sheets instead of doing the work of memorizing the lyrics.
Is that laziness or is it just normal for diverse cover bands these days ?
( I would have to on a lot of songs I'm sure ) But unless you're also playing an instrument I believe as a singer, part of your job is to know the lyrics even if you're winging the keys or whatever.

 

[badger2]

If lyrics and melody line merge with the chord progression, what is a cheat sheet for? Yes, that is why thinking in concert pitch for sax is beneficial: the transposing is already done, and your "D minor" is also the sax's "D minor, the sax can easily follow you anywhere on the chromatic scale. In the guitar duet video, they're at an advantage over keyboards due to the sheer redundancy of the frets. That's why it is easy to quickly jump into harmony with the lead riff. So what is the chromatic relationship of both types of the pentatonic scale: hemitonic and anhemitonic? By default, it has to be a sheer relationship of intervals. One of the reasons we will be eliminating the need to looking at the profane black and white keys of the piano keyboard is because most people have never looked beyond the (artificial) deception and complexity of having a group of two black keys followed by a group of three black keys. This black-key arrangement is an inessential mystification: all you are doing is manipulating the chromatic scale. It could have easily been all black or all white.

The Hamzer keyboard now on the workbench is being changed to a single row of keys or buttons. The proposed keyboard will be free from the synth itself and used as a playing stick alongside the sax and didge. The buttons (or "keys") are closer together than one would be used to, and there is no law that says that they can't be cantilevered. Cantilevering may assist the abstract positioning in recall from memory most sax players are familiar with.

 

[the other mike]

If lyrics and melody line merge with the chord progression, what is a cheat sheet for? Yes, that is why thinking in concert pitch for sax is beneficial: the transposing is already done, and your "D minor" is also the sax's "D minor, the sax can easily follow you anywhere on the chromatic scale. In the guitar duet video, they're at an advantage over keyboards due to the sheer redundancy of the frets. That's why it is easy to quickly jump into harmony with the lead riff. So what is the chromatic relationship of both types of the pentatonic scale: hemitonic and anhemitonic? By default, it has to be a sheer relationship of intervals. One of the reasons we will be eliminating the need to looking at the profane black and white keys of the piano keyboard is because most people have never looked beyond the (artificial) deception and complexity of having a group of two black keys followed by a group of three black keys. This black-key arrangement is an inessential mystification: all you are doing is manipulating the chromatic scale. It could have easily been all black or all white.

The Hamzer keyboard now on the workbench is being changed to a single row of keys or buttons. The proposed keyboard will be free from the synth itself and used as a playing stick alongside the sax and didge. The buttons (or "keys") are closer together than one would be used to, and there is no law that says that they can't be cantilevered. Cantilevering may assist the abstract positioning in recall from memory most sax players are familiar with.

Did you watch the jam at the end ?

That reminds me , when we did Foxy Lady the keyboard player took a 10 minute beer break
so I had to try my best not to suck . That and Santana Everything is Coming Our Way were the only 2 rock songs we did. ( Jermaine heard Santana in my van one day and goes" can you play that" ? I lied and said yes and went home and learned it that night. ( I made some cassettes for the guys and the keyboard player actually wrote it out before we played it that weekend)

 

[badger2]

Yes, the two guitars as timepoint 19:02 catch a groove as the chord man goes into a bossa nova rhythm. Mighty fine pickin'.

 

[the other mike]

Yes, the two guitars as timepoint 19:02 catch a groove as the chord man goes into a bossa nova rhythm. Mighty fine pickin'.

That's my definition of shredding ....arpeggiating through chord changes accurately and fast
without having to 'think' about it .It's a point you can reach only from experience playing and hours of practicing. Like anything - you can find videos of how to do everything possible, but just like if you show a beginner how to do pick harmonics and Dimebag vibrato squeals, that shit takes years to perfect.
Anyone can change out a thermostat on a 64 ford pick up, but how many can do their own brakes or rebuild a tranny ? And you can shred on any instrument.....Howlin Wolf used to shred the fuck out of the harmonica.

 

[badger2]

The redundancy of guitar frets belie the complexity of the pentatonic scale performed on guitar. Timepoint 3:50 is explained in much the way it is for transposing instruments like sax, whereby every sax key is more unique (less redundant) than a piano key:

 

[badger2]

A shredding demonstration begins at timepoint 3:02 (3 notes per string), he does Ionian scale...."relaxed":



Pentatonic scales have interval patterns that must be based on the eternally redundant chromatic scale.

 

[badger2]

In The New Harmony Book, Haunschild says that,

'The existence of pentatonic scales can be traced back in China to the times of the Xia Dynasty (circa 1800-1500 B.C.), which makes them one of the oldest recorded tonal systems. The word pentatonic actually comes from the Greek and refers to the number of notes in this scale (Gk. pente = five).

In classical harmony the pentatonic scale is one of the four ways of dividing up the octave in the twelve-tone-tempered system:

Pentatonic scale: a five-note scale with 3 whole tones, 2 minor thirds and no half tones

Whole-tone scale: a six-note scale with 6 whole tones and no half tones

Diatonic scale: a seven-note scale with 5 whole tones and 2 half tones

Chromatic scale: a twelve-note scale with 12 half tones.'
(Haunschild F, The New Harmony Book, p. 107)

What's deceptive here is Haunschild's notion of octaves taking the place of the chromatic scale. One can't call it a whole tone without the existence of half tones (Yang Hsiungs' "yellow is not yellow" in a verse from theTaixuanjing of 18 B.C.). All of the above scales are eternally bound to the half tones of the chromatic scale. No amount of manipulation will change this fact, although Haunschild will continue to complexify the relationship. We have already mentioned the chord progression relationship in this thread:

'Even acutely dissonant-sounding combinations of chords and pentatonic scales can, as I mentioned above, be used in the right musical context. The advantage of using the pentatonic scale to create dissonance is to be found, however, in the fact that the listener, despite the discrepancy between the notes of the underlying chord and notes of the pentatonic scale used, can generally appreciate this form of dissonance more easily than he could just any random series of notes, this being precisely because of the clear and recognizable structure of the pentatonic scale.

The combination of a Cmaj7 chord with a Dflat major pentatonic scale illustrates this rather well (Example 8). The tension of this chord-scale combination can easily be resolved by transition from the Dflat major pentatonic scale to the C major pentatonic scale a half tone lower. This example demonstrates, however, the limits of any theoretical discussion of such a process. In-depth study of such phenomena belongs to the field of jazz improvisation.

Altered Pentatonic Scales

Integrating altered pentatonic scales into harmonic theory has to be allocated to the field of jazz harmony. The basic. The basic thinking behind this is that a note of a major pentatonic scale may be altered by a half tone up or down in order to arrive at new five-tone scales. The range of alterations possible and the use of these scales is so vast that we will have to forego any attempt at precise classification and systemization. Nevertheless, there should be discussion of how this process works and I will do this by taking the most common areas of application of these altered pentatonic scales.

The preferred use of altered pentatonic scales is with dominants i.e. dominant seventh chords. In the following example there are 6 scales, which have been formed by lowering the 2nd or 5th of the major pentatonic scale by a half tone (Example 9).

The relationship to the root of the chord C7 can be seen below each of the notes of these scales, making it abundantly clear which options of this dominant seventh chord may be employed when using these scales in improvisation. When improvising, the musician can thus decide for him- or herself the upper structure (or the options) of the underlying 4-note chord of C7 by choosing the individual pentatonic scale.'
(ibid. pp. 108-9)

Haunschild's altered pentatonic scales rely on the half-tones of the chromatic scale. In improvisation, one can use most any half-tone as passing notes depending on the progression, how soon the dissonance may be resolved (if ever), use of chromatics in modulation, etc. Haunschild's vast range of alterations intimately depend on just one scale: the 12 half-tones of the chromatic and intervals between them. We will later post Example 9 so that it may be more clear to the reader. Finally, Haunschild's "G flat" is rarely called that when performing with other musicians. It's called F#. It's not called F flat, but E; not B# but C; not A# but B flat.

 

[protectionist]

In The New Harmony Book, Haunschild says that,

'The existence of pentatonic scales can be traced back in China to the times of the Xia Dynasty (circa 1800-1500 B.C.), which makes them one of the oldest recorded tonal systems. The word pentatonic actually comes from the Greek and refers to the number of notes in this scale (Gk. pente = five).

In classical harmony the pentatonic scale is one of the four ways of dividing up the octave in the twelve-tone-tempered system:

Pentatonic scale: a five-note scale with 3 whole tones, 2 minor thirds and no half tones

Whole-tone scale: a six-note scale with 6 whole tones and no half tones

Diatonic scale: a seven-note scale with 5 whole tones and 2 half tones

Chromatic scale: a twelve-note scale with 12 half tones.'
(Haunschild F, The New Harmony Book, p. 107)

What's deceptive here is Haunschild's notion of octaves taking the place of the chromatic scale. One can't call it a whole tone without the existence of half tones (Yang Hsiungs' "yellow is not yellow" in a verse from theTaixuanjing of 18 B.C.). All of the above scales are eternally bound to the half tones of the chromatic scale. No amount of manipulation will change this fact, although Haunschild will continue to complexify the relationship. We have already mentioned the chord progression relationship in this thread:

'Even acutely dissonant-sounding combinations of chords and pentatonic scales can, as I mentioned above, be used in the right musical context. The advantage of using the pentatonic scale to create dissonance is to be found, however, in the fact that the listener, despite the discrepancy between the notes of the underlying chord and notes of the pentatonic scale used, can generally appreciate this form of dissonance more easily than he could just any random series of notes, this being precisely because of the clear and recognizable structure of the pentatonic scale.

The combination of a Cmaj7 chord with a Dflat major pentatonic scale illustrates this rather well (Example 8). The tension of this chord-scale combination can easily be resolved by transition from the Dflat major pentatonic scale to the C major pentatonic scale a half tone lower. This example demonstrates, however, the limits of any theoretical discussion of such a process. In-depth study of such phenomena belongs to the field of jazz improvisation.

Altered Pentatonic Scales

Integrating altered pentatonic scales into harmonic theory has to be allocated to the field of jazz harmony. The basic. The basic thinking behind this is that a note of a major pentatonic scale may be altered by a half tone up or down in order to arrive at new five-tone scales. The range of alterations possible and the use of these scales is so vast that we will have to forego any attempt at precise classification and systemization. Nevertheless, there should be discussion of how this process works and I will do this by taking the most common areas of application of these altered pentatonic scales.

The preferred use of altered pentatonic scales is with dominants i.e. dominant seventh chords. In the following example there are 6 scales, which have been formed by lowering the 2nd or 5th of the major pentatonic scale by a half tone (Example 9).

The relationship to the root of the chord C7 can be seen below each of the notes of these scales, making it abundantly clear which options of this dominant seventh chord may be employed when using these scales in improvisation. When improvising, the musician can thus decide for him- or herself the upper structure (or the options) of the underlying 4-note chord of C7 by choosing the individual pentatonic scale.'
(ibid. pp. 108-9)

Haunschild's altered pentatonic scales rely on the half-tones of the chromatic scale. In improvisation, one can use most any half-tone as passing notes depending on the progression, how soon the dissonance may be resolved (if ever), use of chromatics in modulation, etc. Haunschild's vast range of alterations intimately depend on just one scale: the 12 half-tones of the chromatic and intervals between them. We will later post Example 9 so that it may be more clear to the reader. Finally, Haunschild's "G flat" is rarely called that when performing with other musicians. It's called F#. It's not called F flat, but E; not B# but C; not A# but B flat.

So do you have an answer to the question ?

 

[protectionist]

Yes, as we have just pointed out on the sax thread, the idea is to learn to play without sheet music or even looking at their instrument. Memory is directly and physically transferred to the instrument in real time.

This is how all rock, bluegrass, country, folk, musicians play, and always have. Never see them on stage with a music stand.

 

[protectionist]

Yes, as we have just pointed out on the sax thread, the idea is to learn to play without sheet music or even looking at their instrument. Memory is directly and physically transferred to the instrument in real time.

There was a time when I didn't know pentatonics from pentacostal..
So I'm more or less a hobby guitarist ( off and on for 40 years) whose only performed onstage
a few times with an R&B band back in the 90's called Quiet Storm
in an after hours club. I was one of the few white folks in the place, didn't know what I was doing
but faked it good enough to do some Sade and TLC songs, a couple originals we worked out. It was fun.....my friend Jermaine could sound just like Sade and he knew all the words by heart....chicks were melting when did smooth operator and taboo .... But the acoustics was terrible in there, so I let the drums and keyboard player lead, just kinda followed the bass player if I got lost. ( I became good at lip-reading "D-minor...") I'm thinking of going back out sometime with a blues band, and may even open up a club with a friend from Dallas. I wake up every day anxious to see how much better I'm getting ( at 58 hopefully before arthritis or tendinitis kick in )

Anyway, I've noticed a lot of singers have been
using cheat sheets instead of doing the work of memorizing the lyrics.
Is that laziness or is it just normal for diverse cover bands these days ?
( I would have to on a lot of songs I'm sure ) But unless you're also playing an instrument I believe as a singer, part of your job is to know the lyrics even if you're winging the keys or whatever.

I'm 73, have been playing for 58 years, and besides the guitar and violin, I also play the mandolin, which puts a lot more stress on the fingers than the guitar does.

I've got arthritis in my left index finger, and it can get tough to finger the mandolin lower frets, but mostly when playing, I just forget it, being wrapped up in the music. Don't worry too much.

 

[badger2]

Haunschild's Example 9:

The C7 chord is stacked on the musical staff C E G Bflat, and can be written vertically on graph paper in amino acid representations: (C)F, (E) S, G (I), (Bflat) C. We do this noting that the truer name of a musical note is actually its frequency, which is a number. So C7 is followed by D major pentatonic (flat fifth), where Haunschild adds the relationship: D 9, E 3, Fsharp #11, A 13, Bflat (amino correspondences are Q, S, W, E, C; this is followed on Haunschild's staff by Aflat major pentatonic (flat fifth): Aflat flat 13, bflat 7, C 1, Eflat #9, E 3 (amino equivalents areD, C, F, Y, S.

C major pentatonic (flat 2nd):C 1, C# flat9, E 3, G 5, A 13 (F, T, S, I, E); Eflat major pentatonic (flat 2nd): Eflat #9, F 3, G 5, Bflat 7, C 1 (= Y, M, I, C, F).

followed by

Gflat major pentatonic (flat 2nd): F# #11, G flat-flat 5, Bflat 7, C# flat9, Eflat #9 (= W, I, C, T, Y).

followed by

A major pentatonic (flat 2nd): A 13, Bflat 7, C# flat 9, E 3, F# #11(=E, C, T, A, W).

As we said, it's not usually pronounced "G flat" but "F sharp". In the Gflat example, one can see where the deception comes in, for example with a with a double flat! As the chromatic truth attempts to speak, it gets masked in complexity in a war twixt sharps and flats.

 

[badger2]

One of the answers to OP's question, "Why?" has to do with the hocus-pocus of naming something either sharp or flat and the intervals of the chromatic scale that are being manipulated. A sharp is always another note's flat, and vice-versa, in an eternal war twixt truth and truth: "yellow is not yellow." The two forms, written voicing and actual voicing, are the reason for thinking in concert pitch.

 

[protectionist]

One of the answers to OP's question, "Why?" has to do with the hocus-pocus of naming something either sharp or flat and the intervals of the chromatic scale that are being manipulated. A sharp is always another note's flat, and vice-versa, in an eternal war twixt truth and truth: "yellow is not yellow." The two forms, written voicing and actual voicing, are the reason for thinking in concert pitch.

I still tend to think it's just a matter of laziness. When you remove 2 good notes from 7, that's a significant reduction of music from your song, or tune.

I'd rather have my music be MORE musical, not less

 

[the other mike]

I'm 73, have been playing for 58 years, and besides the guitar and violin, I also play the mandolin, which puts a lot more stress on the fingers than the guitar does.

I've got arthritis in my left index finger, and it can get tough to finger the mandolin lower frets, but mostly when playing, I just forget it, being wrapped up in the music. Don't worry too much.

Have you tried organic apple cider vinegar for the arthritis ? You drink a couple tablespoons mixed in water every day, it prevents heartburn and helps with other things like gout and arthritis. Also turmeric oil and sesame oil capsules ( health store).

 

[the other mike]

I still tend to think it's just a matter of laziness. When you remove 2 good notes from 7, that's a significant reduction of music from your song, or tune.

I'd rather have my music be MORE musical, not less

Except for Mike Tyson when he made his entrance...
"Just give me one ominous note."

 

[badger2]

Arthritis in the base of the thumb makes it sometimes painful to play the upper register with the octave key. Vermont Folk Medicine by Dr. Jarvis mentions apple cider vinegar and honey, though daily cumin (~aka turmeric) does not seem to help. Five notes or seven, what is Chris Potter's opinion on this two-note difference? Potter is probably the greatest living tenor sax player in the world, and has produced a solo most consider the best in the history of jazz.