Peer Review

[SSDD]

So what? The West coast oyster disaster is/was a FARMING issue.

The oyster farmers say you're full of shit. And we've been over this. You are full of shit, from top to bottom. If you got an enema, you'd turn into the invisible man.

So, who to believe, boots on the ground and all the science, or raving political cultists and their careful cherrypicks? Dang, that's a tough one.

Go back and review....the oysters that died were non native species...the local species did just fine...

 

[Abraham3]

The equilibrium level of CO2 dissolved in water is dependent on very few things. The biggies are the temperature of the water and the partial pressure of the CO2 in the air above it. Which of those two do you believe to be the limiting parameter? I guarantee you that, say, a 50% increase in ppCO2 will have a much larger affect on dissolved CO2 and pH than will increasing the water temperature by 0.33% (K).

 

[flacaltenn]

So what? The West coast oyster disaster is/was a FARMING issue.

The oyster farmers say you're full of shit. And we've been over this. You are full of shit, from top to bottom. If you got an enema, you'd turn into the invisible man.

So, who to believe, boots on the ground and all the science, or raving political cultists and their careful cherrypicks? Dang, that's a tough one.

It was a fucking FARMING ISSUE.. They had a non-native specie that they tried to propagate CONTINUALLY THROUGHOUT the year, DESPITE the water conditions, nutrients and temperatures. And they whined when SOME TIMES, the spawn died off due to those conditions.. Oysters NATURALLY spawn only a couple times a year EN MASSE when the water conditions are TUNED to their likings. They were looking for PROFIT and VOLUME by pushing nature beyond its limits with a specie that was ALLOWED THERE -- because it was TOO COLD for it to procreate and become invasive..

Let's put YOU in an environment where you are TOO COLD TO PROCREATE and see how many times a years your babies can survive.

All documented -- more evidence in.. All you got is cussing and hissing and cat threats. I'll take you on this if ya want. Go dig up the "NOAA Fails to Kill Baby Oysters with Massive CO2" thread and we can continue and update the results..

 

[Abraham3]

Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms
Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs.[9][49] As described above, under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, the concentration of carbonate ions required for saturation to occur increases, and when carbonate becomes undersaturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Therefore, even if there is no change in the rate of calcification, the rate of dissolution of calcareous material increases.[50]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification
************************
Do you have some reason to believe that farmed oysters are immune to this effect?

This is from WIKIPEDIA's article on OCEAN ACIDIFICATION

 

[flacaltenn]

Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms
Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs.[9][49] As described above, under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, the concentration of carbonate ions required for saturation to occur increases, and when carbonate becomes undersaturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Therefore, even if there is no change in the rate of calcification, the rate of dissolution of calcareous material increases.[50]
Ocean acidification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
************************
Do you have some reason to believe that farmed oysters are immune to this effect?

This is from WIKIPEDIA's article on OCEAN ACIDIFICATION

Yes I do.. Experimental evidence says they calcify fine at high levels. Carbonate saturation is NOT A PROBLEM in oyster farming, because they are RAISED on beds oyster shells, providing MORE than enough calcium in the local water..

In FACT -- FARMING oysters REQUIRES they supply Dead shells as a medium because they sell the oysters WHOLE and no shells NATURALLY accumulate in the area..

 

[Abraham3]

I don't see a link.

Here's a link to a bunch of scientists who disagree with you.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080625100559/http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce/acidification/paper/Orr_OnlineNature04095.pdf

 

[mamooth]

A lot of denialists get very upset when the real world refuses to go along with their pontifications of HowThingsMustBe.

 

[SSDD]

A lot of denialists get very upset when the real world refuses to go along with their pontifications of HowThingsMustBe.

Look around doofus, it is the real world that is not going along with the model's pontifications of how things must be.

 

[flacaltenn]

I don't see a link.

Here's a link to a bunch of scientists who disagree with you.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080625100559/http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce/acidification/paper/Orr_OnlineNature04095.pdf

I've reposted a thread with DOZENS of links in it.. MULTIPLE TIMES.. Including the LATEST lab research on bivalves showing carefully controlled studies. Those links include cites to the temperature and disease problems of the non-species used in the farming..

YOU -- post a GENERIC study from 2005 BEFORE the bulk of the actual LAB WORK and FIELD WORK was done --- SPECULATING on the effects of OAcidification.. You need to keep CURRENT -- because back in 2005, no one knew SHIT about real experimental and field data..

 

[westwall]

A lot of denialists get very upset when the real world refuses to go along with their pontifications of HowThingsMustBe.

Yes, you do. So nice of you to point that out. I have seen at least 6 different reasons for why there has been no global warming for the last 16 years, definitely follows your observation of railing against HOWTHINGSMUSTBE!

 

[westwall]

THIS IS FROM THE WIKI ARTICLE ON THE PETM.


"In shallower waters, it's undeniable that increased CO2 levels result in a decreased oceanic pH, which has a profound negative effect on corals.[21] Experiments suggest it is also very harmful to calcifying plankton.[22] However, the strong acids used to simulate the natural increase in acidity which would result from elevated CO2 concentrations may have given misleading results, and the most recent evidence is that coccolithophores (E. huxleyi at least) become more, not less, calcified and abundant in acidic waters.[23] Interestingly, no change in the distribution of calcareous nanoplankton such as the coccolithophores can be attributed to acidification during the PETM.[23] Acidification did lead to an abundance of heavily calcified algae[24] and weakly calcified forams.[25]"


23.^ Jump up to: a b Iglesias-Rodriguez, M. Debora; Halloran, Paul R.; Rickaby, Rosalind E. M.; Hall, Ian R.; Colmenero-Hidalgo, Elena; Gittins, John R.; Green, Darryl R. H.; Tyrrell, Toby; Gibbs, Samantha J.; von Dassow, Peter; Rehm, Eric; Armbrust, E. Virginia; Boessenkool, Karin P. (April 2008). "Phytoplankton Calcification in a High-CO2 World". Science 320 (5874): 336–40. Bibcode:2008Sci...320..336I. doi:10.1126/science.1154122. PMID 18420926.
24.Jump up ^ Bralower, T.J. (2002). "Evidence of surface water oligotrophy during the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum: Nannofossil assemblage data from Ocean Drilling Program Site 690, Maud Rise, Weddell Sea". Paleoceanography 17 (2): 1023. Bibcode:2002PalOc..17b..13B. doi:10.1029/2001PA000662. Retrieved 2008-02-28.
25.^ Jump up to: a b Kelly, D.C.; Bralower, T.J.; Zachos, J.C. (1998). "Evolutionary consequences of the latest Paleocene thermal maximum for tropical planktonic foraminifera".

Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms
Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs.[9][49] As described above, under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, the concentration of carbonate ions required for saturation to occur increases, and when carbonate becomes undersaturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Therefore, even if there is no change in the rate of calcification, the rate of dissolution of calcareous material increases.[50]
Ocean acidification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
************************
Do you have some reason to believe that farmed oysters are immune to this effect?

This is from WIKIPEDIA's article on OCEAN ACIDIFICATION

 

[orogenicman]

Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms
Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs.[9][49] As described above, under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, the concentration of carbonate ions required for saturation to occur increases, and when carbonate becomes undersaturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Therefore, even if there is no change in the rate of calcification, the rate of dissolution of calcareous material increases.[50]
Ocean acidification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
************************
Do you have some reason to believe that farmed oysters are immune to this effect?

This is from WIKIPEDIA's article on OCEAN ACIDIFICATION

Yes I do.. Experimental evidence says they calcify fine at high levels.

Every Marine aquarist, including yours truly knows this is not true at all.

 

[SSDD]

Impacts on oceanic calcifying organisms
Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs.[9][49] As described above, under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, the concentration of carbonate ions required for saturation to occur increases, and when carbonate becomes undersaturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Therefore, even if there is no change in the rate of calcification, the rate of dissolution of calcareous material increases.[50]
Ocean acidification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
************************
Do you have some reason to believe that farmed oysters are immune to this effect?

This is from WIKIPEDIA's article on OCEAN ACIDIFICATION

Yes I do.. Experimental evidence says they calcify fine at high levels.

Every Marine aquarist, including yours truly knows this is not true at all.

You deny repeatable experimental evidence? Interesting.

 

[flacaltenn]

Update to NOAA study designed to kill PacWest oysters with MONSTROUS CO2 levels....

Progress Reports: Ocean acidification and emerging diseases in the Pacific Northwest | Roberts Lab

Oyster Larvae Growth and Calcification at Three Different pCO2- Experimental conditions were maintained using a flow-through seawater system in Friday Harbor, Washington, USA. Three experimental treatments were chosen to correspond with dissolved CO2 levels of 400, 700 or 1000 ppm in the atmosphere. These levels correspond to near current ambient oceanic conditions, projections for mid-century pCO2, and end-of-century, respectively (IPCC 2007).

Larval size (shell height and hinge length) was similar across experimental treatments after 24 hours, however by day 3 larvae grew significantly larger (height and length) in the Ambient and MidCO2 compared to the HighCO2 treatment. Between days 1 and 3 larvae increased in size under Ambient conditions (shell height, P < 1e-7) and MidCO2 conditions (shell height, P < 1e-7; Figure 4). Developmental rate did not vary across treatments.

 

[mamooth]

Meanwhile, in the real world, the oyster larva died when low-pH seawater was pumped in. I'm sure the oyster farmers are eager to follow flac's advice and go bankrupt.

 

[SSDD]

Meanwhile, in the real world, the oyster larva died when low-pH seawater was pumped in. I'm sure the oyster farmers are eager to follow flac's advice and go bankrupt.

In the real world, non native species died....the locals did just fine. Those conditions aren't what the non native species have evolved to survive. You guys are such liars.

 

[mamooth]

I have seen at least 6 different reasons for why there has been no global warming for the last 16 years,

You may be interested in the alternate-reality theories of the fudgemaster cult of denialism, but I'm not.

So, you've got maybe 2 years to get away before the koolaid gets served to your cult. Will you be you taking the opportunity to slip away into the jungle, or will you be staying put?

 

[mamooth]

In the real world, non native species died....the locals did just fine. Those conditions aren't what the non native species have evolved to survive. You guys are such liars.

So now you say acidity killed the oysters. Why did it take you so long to say we were right? You could have done that right off and saved a lot of time.

 

[flacaltenn]

Meanwhile, in the real world, the oyster larva died when low-pH seawater was pumped in. I'm sure the oyster farmers are eager to follow flac's advice and go bankrupt.

Nawwww. All they have to do is pay attention to their production scheduling.. There's a REASON oysters spawn IN UNISON on rare days of the year.. Nature gave them the instinct to assure survival.. Dumb farmers want them making babies all year long... And in waters that are ALREADY too cold and hostile for them to thrive naturally...

 

[SwimExpert]

Nawwww. All they have to do is pay attention to their production scheduling.. There's a REASON oysters spawn IN UNISON on rare days of the year.. Nature gave them the instinct to assure survival.

So you mean to tell me that randomly shooting off your sperm into the water when there might not be a fertile female for miles does not a baby make? Well no wonder I'm not married yet. I've been doing this whole romance thing all wrong.