Zone1 Peace between Catholics and Protestants!

[ding]

Oh, come on, you go to any church today, and you can see who paid for each stained glass window. The Church has been a money-making scam since Peter struck down Ananias and Sapphira for not giving up all their money. (ACTS 5: 1-11) Wow, they wanted to keep some of their money for themselves and the Holy Spirit struck them down like a Gambino Hit Man.

(This is one of those bible stories that made me wonder about the whole thing. Guess who got a ruler over the knuckles for asking about it.)

Sounds like a confirmation bias.

 

[JoeB131]

Sounds like a confirmation bias.

Sounds like someone who actually could think, and Sister Mary Butch wasn't going to have any of that.

This woman spent 50 years curbing her lesbian tendencies by praising Jesus, and darn it, some snot-nosed kid asking an obvious question wasn't going to mess that up for her!

 

[Woodznutz]

Oh, come on, you go to any church today, and you can see who paid for each stained glass window. The Church has been a money-making scam since Peter struck down Ananias and Sapphira for not giving up all their money. (ACTS 5: 1-11) Wow, they wanted to keep some of their money for themselves and the Holy Spirit struck them down like a Gambino Hit Man.

(This is one of those bible stories that made me wonder about the whole thing. Guess who got a ruler over the knuckles for asking about it.)

That's not quite the way it happened.

 

[JoeB131]

That's not quite the way it happened.

Um, yeah, it kind of was.

The Church made these people sell all their posessions, and give the money to the church. They tried to keep some so they could keep on eating.

Well, God wasn't having that, apparently.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, come on, you go to any church today, and you can see who paid for each stained glass window. The Church has been a money-making scam since Peter struck down Ananias and Sapphira for not giving up all their money. (ACTS 5: 1-11) Wow, they wanted to keep some of their money for themselves and the Holy Spirit struck them down like a Gambino Hit Man.

(This is one of those bible stories that made me wonder about the whole thing. Guess who got a ruler over the knuckles for asking about it.)

It was the lie that was Ananias downfall. The story points out that the land was under his control before the sale, and when it was sold, it was still under his control. So why lie to the Holy Spirit and say he was contributing all he had.

I am guessing you must never have lived in small towns or poor parishes? Churches are a reflection of the community. Even when people donated stained glass window, the money did not go into anyone's pocket--but into the window for the entire church community to share for generations to come.

I'm guessing--if your knuckles were rapped at all--that it was because you had not been paying attention. Any teacher--in fact anyone who had actually listened to the story--would know that it was the lie that was deplored and the lie that caused the downfall of Ananias and his wife.

 

[Meriweather]

Um, yeah, it kind of was.

The Church made these people sell all their posessions, and give the money to the church. They tried to keep some so they could keep on eating.

Well, God wasn't having that, apparently.

Remember, the community lived and ate together, holding everything in common, keeping nothing for themselves. No one was forced to join.

 

[Zebra]

the peace be with you all!
Not only in Augsburg.

 

[JoeB131]

It was the lie that was Ananias downfall. The story points out that the land was under his control before the sale, and when it was sold, it was still under his control. So why lie to the Holy Spirit and say he was contributing all he had.

Why not? Why kill a guy for merely telling a self-serving fib.

You'd think they'd be happy to get some money out of the deal and leave it at that.

Then they don't even tell the poor guy's wife that the Holy Spirit whacked him. They just let her lie so the Holy Spirit could whack her, too.

I am guessing you must never have lived in small towns or poor parishes? Churches are a reflection of the community. Even when people donated stained glass window, the money did not go into anyone's pocket--but into the window for the entire church community to share for generations to come.

naw, I lived in a middle class parish (remember when we still had a middle class in this country, it was kind of awesome!) where the Corrupt Church shook people down for stained glass windows and other goodies so the Bishops and Cardinals could live large.

At least the Mafia is honest about what it is.

I'm guessing--if your knuckles were rapped at all--that it was because you had not been paying attention. Any teacher--in fact anyone who had actually listened to the story--would know that it was the lie that was deplored and the lie that caused the downfall of Ananias and his wife.

Nobody deserved to die for telling a lie about their own business. (NOt that I think any of this actually happened, it was a made up fairy story.)

Remember, the community lived and ate together, holding everything in common, keeping nothing for themselves. No one was forced to join.

Yes, it kind of sounds like... wait for it.. A CULT!!!

 

[Woodznutz]

Why not? Why kill a guy for merely telling a self-serving fib.

You'd think they'd be happy to get some money out of the deal and leave it at that.

Then they don't even tell the poor guy's wife that the Holy Spirit whacked him. They just let her lie so the Holy Spirit could whack her, too.





naw, I lived in a middle class parish (remember when we still had a middle class in this country, it was kind of awesome!) where the Corrupt Church shook people down for stained glass windows and other goodies so the Bishops and Cardinals could live large.

At least the Mafia is honest about what it is.



Nobody deserved to die for telling a lie about their own business. (NOt that I think any of this actually happened, it was a made up fairy story.)



Yes, it kind of sounds like... wait for it.. A CULT!!!

"Cults are social groups which have unusual, and often extreme, religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs and rituals."

Yup. We are a cult.

 

[JoeB131]

"Cults are social groups which have unusual, and often extreme, religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs and rituals."

Yup. We are a cult.

The early church was almost certainly a cult.

The difference between a cult and a religion is about 500 years.

 

[Woodznutz]

The early church was almost certainly a cult.

The difference between a cult and a religion is about 500 years.

Based on the evidence I'd say that true Christianity is still considered a cult.

 

[Meriweather]

Why kill a guy for merely telling a self-serving fib.

Natural or supernatural? For fun--probably over a decade ago now--I was doing a study of Biblical miracles. Could they have been natural events? Remember that Ananias and Sapphira were Jews, and lying was seriously breaking a commandment. Next, why sell their land? In Judaism, the father's land was expected to be the inheritance of the son, who then had the responsibility of looking after any other siblings. How old were the couple when they sold their land? Did they have any children? Were they childless and wondering who would take care of them in their old age? Scripture says nothing about their circumstances, so we don't know. Here is what we do know that is doubtful people in those times knew as well. When someone lies (especially someone who is unused to lying), there is increased heart rate and blood pressure because lying can trigger the sympathetic nervous system, leading to a faster heartbeat and higher blood pressure. If Ananias and Sapphira were already experiencing stress over the sale of their land, being caught in a lie would have added to that stress.

What say you: Could there have been physiological factors, resulting in heart attack or stroke, that was the cause of death? Or, was it solely the work of the Holy Spirit?

Is it fair to say that lies are not that big an issue for you?

 

[Meriweather]

naw, I lived in a middle class parish (remember when we still had a middle class in this country, it was kind of awesome!) where the Corrupt Church shook people down for stained glass windows and other goodies so the Bishops and Cardinals could live large.

Have you evidence to support this? Or, is it your opinion?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, it kind of sounds like... wait for it.. A CULT!!!

I'm guessing you never learned the definition of "cult" (or weren't didn't bother to listen to that lesson, either). You seem to find this shocking. Calm down. It's okay. Look up the etymology and use of the word 'cult'.

 

[JoeB131]

Natural or supernatural? For fun--probably over a decade ago now--I was doing a study of Biblical miracles. Could they have been natural events? Remember that Ananias and Sapphira were Jews, and lying was seriously breaking a commandment. Next, why sell their land? In Judaism, the father's land was expected to be the inheritance of the son, who then had the responsibility of looking after any other siblings. How old were the couple when they sold their land? Did they have any children? Were they childless and wondering who would take care of them in their old age? Scripture says nothing about their circumstances, so we don't know. Here is what we do know that is doubtful people in those times knew as well. When someone lies (especially someone who is unused to lying), there is increased heart rate and blood pressure because lying can trigger the sympathetic nervous system, leading to a faster heartbeat and higher blood pressure. If Ananias and Sapphira were already experiencing stress over the sale of their land, being caught in a lie would have added to that stress.

What say you: Could there have been physiological factors, resulting in heart attack or stroke, that was the cause of death? Or, was it solely the work of the Holy Spirit?

Is it fair to say that lies are not that big an issue for you?

Naw, people lie to me all the time. While I wouldn't mind smiting a few of my vendors when they give me a bullshit delivery date they don't meet, that would probably be a little harsh.

And now you are crossing into the "Prosiac Explanations" for miracles.

Maybe Noah's flood was a local flood that was exaggerated.
Maybe the Red Sea was at low tide so they could cross it.
Maybe Ananias and Sapphira were just feeling really guilty and died of broken hearts.

That actually makes your God LESS impressive, not more impressive.

Here's the thing.

The God of the Old Testament, which you Xians like to treat like a crazy uncle at Thanksgiving, was the representation of every force of nature Bronze Age people couldn't understand and constantly needed to be appeased. Have a plague, God must be angry, let's stone whoever was unlucky enough to get blamed for some petty sin.

The God of the New Testament was supposed to be better than that, supposedly, being more about a sunshine and puppies heaven if you were good. So smiting A&S seems like a bit of a throwback to a God who would smite you like a horror movie villain.

 

[JoeB131]

Have you evidence to support this? Or, is it your opinion?

Naw, I remember my confirmation when we had the Bishop show up, with his fancy robes and his Knights of Columbus escort like it was a big old pageant.

We were supposed to be impressed that this was a big deal.

I'm guessing you never learned the definition of "cult" (or weren't didn't bother to listen to that lesson, either). You seem to find this shocking. Calm down. It's okay. Look up the etymology and use of the word 'cult'.

I am going by what the description in ACTS says the early church was. Controlling who could have sex (it was discouraged) demanding people sign over their worldly goodies.

Geez, no wonder the Romans were so keen to stamp them out (even though they were otherwise pretty religiously tolerant.)

 

[Meriweather]

And now you are crossing into the "Prosiac Explanations" for miracles.

Maybe Noah's flood was a local flood that was exaggerated.
Maybe the Red Sea was at low tide so they could cross it.
Maybe Ananias and Sapphira were just feeling really guilty and died of broken hearts.

That actually makes your God LESS impressive, not more impressive.

Prosaic? I doubt I even reach that level. I easily accept we have no way of knowing exactly what happened on earth, and when it happened. I have no problem accepting miracles; I have no problem accepting natural phenomenon because I don't know what happened and have no way of knowing this. I can add a few more possibilities of my own--I have a talent for that. I embrace all possibilities because none of this matters to the story. Each Biblical account is presenting a lesson in a way the original audience understands and can pass it along to their children and future generations. The lesson interests--even fascinates--me.

When one actually knows God, 'impressive' doesn't begin to paint the picture. Any sneers are easily shrugged aside.

Here's the thing.

The God of the Old Testament, which you Xians like to treat like a crazy uncle at Thanksgiving, was the representation of every force of nature Bronze Age people couldn't understand and constantly needed to be appeased. Have a plague, God must be angry, let's stone whoever was unlucky enough to get blamed for some petty sin.

The God of the New Testament was supposed to be better than that, supposedly, being more about a sunshine and puppies heaven if you were good. So smiting A&S seems like a bit of a throwback to a God who would smite you like a horror movie villain.

One must know the Hebrew language and intimately understand Biblical culture of that time to understand what people were attempting to convey about God. Most non-believers give up and settle for "crazy uncle". Shrug.

 

[Meriweather]

Naw, I remember my confirmation when we had the Bishop show up, with his fancy robes and his Knights of Columbus escort like it was a big old pageant.

We were supposed to be impressed that this was a big deal.

Did you fool the bishop?

 

[GMCGeneral]

There will never really be peace between heretics and true Christians

Jesus said so

He said that He came not to bring peace but a sword. He also said that His followers would be "hated by all because of [Him]"

Mk 1313
Mt 1022

Hence the Dark Ages which were the heyday of Catholicism. Many true Born Again believers were executed because they would not bow to the death cookie nor the pope.

 

[GMCGeneral]

They agreed. They did not want to be part of a Man's church they thought was corrupt, and would do nice things like, torture you to death.

That and the Catholic Cult kept the written Word of G-d from the laity because they claim to have exclusive right to interpret it, a role that belongs to G-d Himself in the Holy Spirit. After Luther's revelation, the Guttenberg printing press enabled the Bible to be published enmasse and in the people's hands. This posed a threat to the Vatican who proceeded to the brutal inquisitions of which I believe the German Holocaust was the latest one.