Palestine Today

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) does not know what will work. But after a half-century of conflict, they sure as hell knows what doesn't work. (The actions they perform today.)

P F Tinmore said:
Could you suggest something that would work?
I await your response.

That wasn't the question.

(COMMENT)

The question was answered. I don't want to fall into one of you "Quibbling Traps."

Most Respectfully,
R

IOW, Israel will not allow anything against their settler colonial project.

 

[USAF 2023]

Notice how every host is handed Israel's list of talking points.

USCPR Policy Director Josh Ruebner on i24 News - Great Return March

Notice how Pro Palestinians never comment on threatened Palestinian aggression and talking points ?

Palestinian Authority Supreme Shari'a Judge And Abbas' Advisor Mahmoud Al-Habbash: The Jews Have No Connection To Jerusalem; This Is An Imperialist Myth And Distortion Of History

Mahmoud Al-Habbash, the PA Supreme Shari'a Judge and President Mahmoud 'Abbas's advisor for religious affairs, said at a June 4, 2018 conference that the struggle in Jerusalem is between the rightful owners of the city – the Muslims and Christians – and "some foreign Western imperialists that...

www.memri.org

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: I didn't say that. But it is highly probable that Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) violence will not induce change.

IOW, Israel will not allow anything against their settler colonial project.

(COMMENT)

An increase in HoAP violence could alter the security arrangement of settler areas, even the creation of more walls and guard towers.

An "increase in violence" could have "quite the reverse" of a favorable withdrawal from the West Bank. It could call for an action open cause for action that would warrant measures to restore and ensure public order and safety.

(THE ANYTHING)

However, IF the attitude and level of cooperation were to suddenly improve and the Arab Palestinian were to open up a good faith and meaningful dialog through a more conventional and non-violent approach, Israel might be persuaded to respond much more favorably.

Since 1948, when the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) made their position very clear and openly plain, the Arab Palestinian has consistently lost ground in achieving any of the nine (9) political goals or objectives expressed through the Negotiation Affairs Department (NAD) of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Essentially the NAD has not made any advancement towards the objective of the Arab Palestinian people since the AHC stated the following salient points:

◈ The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.​

◈ The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.​

◈ The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.​

◈ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.​

While these views have been expressed in a number of different ways through a number of different means (including a Covenant, a Charter, and a number of policy papers), nothing has demonstrated the belligerent attitude of the Arab Palestinian people more than the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide:

◈ No peace with Israel,​

◈ No recognition of Israel,​

◈ No negotiations,​

(WHAT WILL WORK)

When the Arab Palestinian breaks out of this counter-productive political posture, new opportunities may arise. But the HoAP need to be put down and the Arab Palestinian need to speak in every media outlet, in one clear and unambiguous voice (with the will to enforce it):

◈ Armed struggle and Jihad are NOT the way to achieve peace and a better future for the ALL people of the Middle East.​

◈ Fedayeen activism is no longer to be tolerated.​

◈ Violence is to be halted immediately.​

◈ All Arab Palestinians recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.​

◈ The Arab Palestinian people commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict.​

This is a necessary first step. But it has to be a full step, not baby steps. And it has to be enforced with vigor by the Palestinian police. There should be no alliance made for street confrontation with the Israeli police. There has to be a complete change in attitude.

It will take some time, but it could happen. And the Arab Palestinian people must want it.

You want to know what WILL work; this will work.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: I didn't say that. But it is highly probable that Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) violence will not induce change.

IOW, Israel will not allow anything against their settler colonial project.

(COMMENT)

An increase in HoAP violence could alter the security arrangement of settler areas, even the creation of more walls and guard towers.

An "increase in violence" could have "quite the reverse" of a favorable withdrawal from the West Bank. It could call for an action open cause for action that would warrant measures to restore and ensure public order and safety.

(THE ANYTHING)

However, IF the attitude and level of cooperation were to suddenly improve and the Arab Palestinian were to open up a good faith and meaningful dialog through a more conventional and non-violent approach, Israel might be persuaded to respond much more favorably.

Since 1948, when the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) made their position very clear and openly plain, the Arab Palestinian has consistently lost ground in achieving any of the nine (9) political goals or objectives expressed through the Negotiation Affairs Department (NAD) of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Essentially the NAD has not made any advancement towards the objective of the Arab Palestinian people since the AHC stated the following salient points:

◈ The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.​

◈ The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.​

◈ The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.​

◈ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.​

While these views have been expressed in a number of different ways through a number of different means (including a Covenant, a Charter, and a number of policy papers), nothing has demonstrated the belligerent attitude of the Arab Palestinian people more than the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide:

◈ No peace with Israel,​

◈ No recognition of Israel,​

◈ No negotiations,​

(WHAT WILL WORK)

When the Arab Palestinian breaks out of this counter-productive political posture, new opportunities may arise. But the HoAP need to be put down and the Arab Palestinian need to speak in every media outlet, in one clear and unambiguous voice (with the will to enforce it):

◈ Armed struggle and Jihad are NOT the way to achieve peace and a better future for the ALL people of the Middle East.​

◈ Fedayeen activism is no longer to be tolerated.​

◈ Violence is to be halted immediately.​

◈ All Arab Palestinians recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.​

◈ The Arab Palestinian people commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict.​

This is a necessary first step. But it has to be a full step, not baby steps. And it has to be enforced with vigor by the Palestinian police. There should be no alliance made for street confrontation with the Israeli police. There has to be a complete change in attitude.

It will take some time, but it could happen. And the Arab Palestinian people must want it.

You want to know what WILL work; this will work.

Most Respectfully,
R

I notice that everything you listed is what Israel wants. No surprise there.

Armed resistance is not very effective, however, everyone has their own means to resist and it is not up to anyone to dictate methods to them.

The vast majority of Palestinian resistance has been unarmed. You wouldn't know this by corporate media reports. Virtually all peaceful protests go unreported. However, they are usually recorded and posted on social media.

The biggest thing the Palestinians are doing is education. There are many intelligent, articulate, and well educated people promoting Palestine in many ways. Now Palestinians, as a people, exist. Palestine, as a place, exists. Public perceptions are changing.

 

[rylah]

Notice how every host is handed Israel's list of talking points.

USCPR Policy Director Josh Ruebner on i24 News - Great Return March

Oh no, an Israeli TV network gave an Israeli point of view interviewing an anti-Israel activist.
That famous 'talking point' excuse to whenever one can't refute a thing.

Did you expect Israeli hosts to have an Egyptian point of view?

But that same talking point list is given to BBC, CNN, Fox,... Name one that does not have this same list.

Are you serious BBC, CNN...
are you calling Fareed Zakaria a pro-Israel host?

This 'list of talking points' you talk about...but never present,
I guess it's just whatever the inconvenient facts you can't deal with.

 

[rylah]

The vast majority of Palestinian resistance has been unarmed. You wouldn't know this by corporate media reports. Virtually all peaceful protests go unreported. However, they are usually recorded and posted on social media.

That "peaceful protests" talking point,
you never miss an opportunity to disprove

Those famous 'peaceful' machete and Molotov's...

The biggest thing the Palestinians are doing is education. There are many intelligent, articulate, and well educated people promoting Palestine in many ways. Now Palestinians, as a people, exist. Palestine, as a place, exists. Public perceptions are changing.

Jihadis confuse education with propaganda.
Can't wish something into existence with public perception,
Israel has already been boycotted, called worst things by UN, at times much harder.

For the last 7 decades Israel haters have been stumping their feet in unison,
did it bring their goal close, changed something on the ground, moved earth even an inch?

When speaking of a minority that got used to being the scapegoats,
these threats are not much news or an achievement.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, rylah, et al,

BLUF: This is "The Ostrich Effect" (people are unable to see and do what they need to see and do) in which you reveal your cognitive bias and avoid information that you perceive as a sound and valid opposing view.

I notice that everything you listed is what Israel wants. No surprise there.

This 'list of talking points' you talk about...but never present,
I guess it's just whatever the inconvenient facts you can't deal with.

(COMMENT)

You missed the point... The list represents an entirely new approach that will offer Israel an incentive to address Arab Palestinian overtures with a fresh eye. Israel doesn't need to bend or bow to the absurd demands currently presented by the stubborn Arab Palestinian Leadership that see a continuation of the conflict as an opportunity to amass wealth. When the multimillionaires begin to leave the West Bank and Gaza you'll know that the gravy train is over.

Armed resistance is not very effective, however, everyone has their own means to resist and it is not up to anyone to dictate methods to them.

For the last 7 decades Israel haters have been stumping their feet in unison,
did it bring their goal close, changed something on the ground, moved earth even an inch?

(COMMENT)

Our friend "rylah" amplifies the true point.

The means to "resist" does have limits and proscriptions. It does NOT include "all means available." Contrary to your continued insistence, lawful resistance does not include (for instance) an offense that is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power. I simply do not know what "actual law source" you get this from, but it does not include murder (of anyone) or damage to the property of the occupying forces, the civil administration, or the installations used by them.

You do your fellow anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist opponents a grave disservice by repeating "all available means, including armed struggle" from non-binding and unenforceable General Assembly Resolutions (ex A/RES/3246 - or - A/RES/33/24). I find it difficult to believe, but none the less true, that so many illiterate Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters find slogans "resistance is not terrorism" or "there will be no Israeli in Palestine" as some sort of cue to follow loudmouths such as Palestinian Activist Yaser Mazhar who "Calls on Palestinians to Carry out Suicide Bombings in Israel: We Long for Bus Bombings."

✦ REMEMBER that Internationally:​

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, ​

Condemns the violent extremism, which can be conducive to terrorism, sectarian violence, and the commission of terrorist acts by foreign terrorist fighters, and demands that all foreign terrorist fighters disarm and cease all terrorist acts and participation in armed conflict;​

You should be endorsing the action plans that are designed to Prevent Violent Extremism (PVE).

The vast majority of Palestinian resistance has been unarmed. You wouldn't know this by corporate media reports. Virtually all peaceful protests go unreported. However, they are usually recorded and posted on social media.

(COMMENT)

You won't mind if I throw a flag on this play. I don't consider street confrontations like that of the newest darling (Ahed Tamimi is a Palestinian activist from the village of Nabi Salih) as non-violent. There are levels of violence and most street confrontations consist of low-intensity levels of violence. However, what starts as a minor street confrontation can escalate very quickly. And then there are those incidents that are contrived to create a media event.

The biggest thing the Palestinians are doing is education. There are many intelligent, articulate, and well educated people promoting Palestine in many ways. Now Palestinians, as a people, exist. Palestine, as a place, exists. Public perceptions are changing.

(COMMENT)

The idea of "Many" is a "perception" of the mind and the mental expectation. Your idea of "intelligent, articulate, and well-educated people" (meaning Arab Palestinians) is relative. I see them with a piece of paper, but not so much as being able to work out a solution in relating to the Israeli in non-violent interactions. Your many "intelligent, articulate, and well-educated people" should be able to develop a mutually beneficial interaction with the Israeli after 70 years. I don't actually see evidence to that effect.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

✦ REMEMBER that Internationally:Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, Condemns the violent extremism, which can be conducive to terrorism, sectarian violence, and the commission of terrorist acts by foreign terrorist fighters, and demands that all foreign terrorist fighters disarm and cease all terrorist acts and participation in armed conflict;

Do you mean like this?
------------------
4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1514 - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

 

[P F Tinmore]

Your many "intelligent, articulate, and well-educated people" should be able to develop a mutually beneficial interaction with the Israeli after 70 years. I don't actually see evidence to that effect.

Israel will only "negotiate" with its hand picked leaders. None of those intelligent, articulate, and well-educated people are allowed at the table. I would love to see that, televised and posted on youtube.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Once again, this is misinformation on your part in an attempt to convince others that you have some sound and valid basis for advocating violence.

First: A/RES15/1514 (XV) is a General Assembly Resolution and not binding law.​

Second: This Resolution has to do with Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, none of which applies to the Palestinians.​

Third: The Arab Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories. That is, the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT "territories whose people have not yet attained a full measure of self-government”. In the case of the Arab Palestinians, the C-24 does not address the capability or quality of the government. That is up to the Arab Palestinian.​

Fourth: Israel is not a Colonial Power, nor has it ever been a Colonial Power. And no, there are NO territories, countries, nations or states anywhere in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) that are under Colonial Rule or considered to be a Trust and Non-Self-Governing territory.​

✦ REMEMBER that Internationally:Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, Condemns the violent extremism, which can be conducive to terrorism, sectarian violence, and the commission of terrorist acts by foreign terrorist fighters, and demands that all foreign terrorist fighters disarm and cease all terrorist acts and participation in armed conflict;

Do you mean like this?
------------------
4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1514 - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

(COMMENT)

I notice that you bring this up from time to time. So, I know that you know this is a totally bogus injection into the discussion.

You don't have to determine the applicability of the resolution in regard to the Arab Palestinian. The UN C-24 Committee (Special Committee on Decolonization) does the work for you and the readers of this discussion. A world map and chart below the map (as of 14 May 2019), lists the 17 territories to which the C-24 Committee considers that A/RES15/1514 (XV) applies. It also lists the four remaining Administering Powers. Israel is NOT one of the Administering Powers, oddly enough, America is still an Administering Power for which A/RES15/1514 (XV) applies.

I know that some pro-Arab Palestinian contributors like to pull the wool over the reader's eyes. But don't let them fool you.

REMEMBER:​

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rabab Abdulhadi - 2019 Alex Odeh Memorial Award Recipient Speech

 

[P F Tinmore]

Third: The Arab Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories. That is, the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT "territories whose people have not yet attained a full measure of self-government”.

That is odd. Israel's bullshit propaganda says that the Palestinians have never been self governing therefor they have no rights.

It is also odd that you would buy into that obvious contradiction.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Fourth: Israel is not a Colonial Power, nor has it ever been a Colonial Power.

That's funny. The British called it colonialism. The Zionists called it colonialism. The Palestinians called it colonialism. History calls it colonialism. The facts on the ground show colonialism. It is still called colonialism.

Who tells you it is not?

Links?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You don't need to be self-governing to has civil and political rights. [See: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)] Again, I think there is some misinformation here on your part. I think you are using the changing definition of "Palestine" and the fact that the entirety of the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine has never been governed by the Arab Palestinians in the last eight (8) centuries.

Third: The Arab Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories. That is, the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are NOT "territories whose people have not yet attained a full measure of self-government”.

That is odd. Israel's bullshit propaganda says that the Palestinians have never been self governing therefor they have no rights.

It is also odd that you would buy into that obvious contradiction.

(COMMENT)

Everyone has rights. What they have rights to and whether or not they are positive or negative rights is a question on specifics rights. I do not believe that you are correctly interpreting what the Israeli Government has said concerning this. You're putting your slant on things.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: IF you go back to Post 15,610, you will find out who determines that with the link...

Fourth: Israel is not a Colonial Power, nor has it ever been a Colonial Power.

That's funny. The British called it colonialism. The Zionists called it colonialism. The Palestinians called it colonialism. History calls it colonialism. The facts on the ground show colonialism. It is still called colonialism.

Who tells you it is not?

Links?

(COMMENT)

I think you are confusing the politicization and rhetoric with the actual technical meaning and the facts.

​

"In accordance with GA resolution 1654 (XVI), the C-24 was mandated to (i) examine the application of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (GA resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960, hereafter referred to as the "Declaration") and (ii) to make suggestions and recommendations on the progress and extent of the implementation of the Declaration. The C-24 commenced its work in 1962.​

​

​

The C-24 annually reviews the list of Non-Self-Governing Territories to which the Declaration is applicable. It also hears statements from representatives of the Non-Self-Governing Territories at its annual sessions, dispatches visiting missions to Non-Self-Governing Territories and annually organizes regional seminars."​

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[RoccoR]