Palestine Today

[toastman]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I find it absolutely incredible that you use false and inaccurate information, which is deliberately intended to deceive reader and yet to look authentic. In context, these are half-truths. Each has and enforcement period.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949
The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Thanks for asking.

(COMMENT)

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the West Bank and Jerusalem are:

Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement (3 April 1949)
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article 3 - International Boundary → "The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein."​

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the Gaza Strip are:

Armistice Egyptian-Israel S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article II → "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace."​

Most Respectfully,
R

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I find it absolutely incredible that you use false and inaccurate information, which is deliberately intended to deceive reader and yet to look authentic. In context, these are half-truths. Each has and enforcement period.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949
The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Thanks for asking.

(COMMENT)

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the West Bank and Jerusalem are:

Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement (3 April 1949)
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article 3 - International Boundary → "The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein."​

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the Gaza Strip are:

Armistice Egyptian-Israel S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article II → "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace."​

Most Respectfully,
R

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

So you got into potato/potatoe argument even sooner then I expcted.

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

Now you start dancing in circles...

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

I will need a link for that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I find it absolutely incredible that you use false and inaccurate information, which is deliberately intended to deceive reader and yet to look authentic. In context, these are half-truths. Each has and enforcement period.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949
The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Thanks for asking.

(COMMENT)

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the West Bank and Jerusalem are:

Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement (3 April 1949)
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article 3 - International Boundary → "The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein."​

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the Gaza Strip are:

Armistice Egyptian-Israel S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article II → "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace."​

Most Respectfully,
R

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

 

[toastman]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I find it absolutely incredible that you use false and inaccurate information, which is deliberately intended to deceive reader and yet to look authentic. In context, these are half-truths. Each has and enforcement period.

(COMMENT)

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the West Bank and Jerusalem are:

Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement (3 April 1949)
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article 3 - International Boundary → "The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein."​

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the Gaza Strip are:

Armistice Egyptian-Israel S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article II → "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace."​

Most Respectfully,
R

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

 

[rylah]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I find it absolutely incredible that you use false and inaccurate information, which is deliberately intended to deceive reader and yet to look authentic. In context, these are half-truths. Each has and enforcement period.

(COMMENT)

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the West Bank and Jerusalem are:

Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement (3 April 1949)
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article 3 - International Boundary → "The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein."​

The real truth and boundaries that apply to the Gaza Strip are:

Armistice Egyptian-Israel S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
See Article XII § 2: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"
See the Peaceful Settlement: Article II → "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace."​

Most Respectfully,
R

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

So you got into potato/potatoe argument even sooner then I expcted.

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

Now you start dancing in circles...

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

I will need a link for that.

The Covenant of the League of Nations
ARTICLE 21.
Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace.

United Nations Charter
CHAPTER VIII: REGIONAL ARRANGEMENTS
Nothing in the present Charter precludes the existence of regional arrangements or agencies for dealing with such matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security as are appropriate for regional action provided that such arrangements or agencies and their activities are consistent with the Purposes and Principles of the United Nations.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be shy to ask further, will be glad to help with your confusion.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What do Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have to do with Palestine's international borders?

Nice deflection though.

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

So you got into potato/potatoe argument even sooner then I expcted.

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

Now you start dancing in circles...

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

I will need a link for that.

The Covenant of the League of Nations
ARTICLE 21.
Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace.

United Nations Charter
CHAPTER VIII: REGIONAL ARRANGEMENTS
Nothing in the present Charter precludes the existence of regional arrangements or agencies for dealing with such matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security as are appropriate for regional action provided that such arrangements or agencies and their activities are consistent with the Purposes and Principles of the United Nations.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be shy to ask further, will be glad to help with your confusion.

Doesn't mention Israel.

 

[rylah]

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

Well, that's the only ones with the legal title to "say so".
No other nation was vested with that authority.

 

[toastman]

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

Again, they are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED. They are not say so borders.

There is a big difference.

Now if only you could provide a link that backs up anything you say.........

 

[toastman]

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

So you got into potato/potatoe argument even sooner then I expcted.

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

Now you start dancing in circles...

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

I will need a link for that.

The Covenant of the League of Nations
ARTICLE 21.
Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace.

United Nations Charter
CHAPTER VIII: REGIONAL ARRANGEMENTS
Nothing in the present Charter precludes the existence of regional arrangements or agencies for dealing with such matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security as are appropriate for regional action provided that such arrangements or agencies and their activities are consistent with the Purposes and Principles of the United Nations.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be shy to ask further, will be glad to help with your confusion.

Doesn't mention Israel.

Your point ?

 

[rylah]

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

So you got into potato/potatoe argument even sooner then I expcted.

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

Now you start dancing in circles...

Same UN also draws all of its (limited) authority from the same legal instruments that entitle those borders to the nation of Israel.

I will need a link for that.

The Covenant of the League of Nations
ARTICLE 21.
Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace.

United Nations Charter
CHAPTER VIII: REGIONAL ARRANGEMENTS
Nothing in the present Charter precludes the existence of regional arrangements or agencies for dealing with such matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security as are appropriate for regional action provided that such arrangements or agencies and their activities are consistent with the Purposes and Principles of the United Nations.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be shy to ask further, will be glad to help with your confusion.

Doesn't mention Israel.

Incorrect, it doesn't mention any Arab nation,
vests all sovereignty with the Jewish Nation, Israel, and no one else.

Otherwise why would you duck my request for a legally binding document mentioning the first?

 

[Shusha]

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

Oh dear. You DO realize that is how international law concerning borders between States works, right? We say so. We, the Parties involved, create a mutual agreement delineating borders between our two States. That is literally how it works. Mutual agreement is the entire basis of relations between States.

 

[Shusha]

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

You put far too much weight on what the territory is "called". Utterly irrelevant.

What are the actual relevant pieces here? Do you even know?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

Yeah, this is a common problem among those pro-Arab Palestinians. They think that they can ignore the change in the meaning of the nomenclature: "Palestine"

Since before The Great War (WWI), the territory under the Ottoman Empire that was informally called by the name "Palestine" (of biblical times) was actually not a single political subdivision. It was a geospatial landscape that stretched across several Sanjaks (Districts) of two different Vilayets (first-order administrative division, or province of the later Ottoman Empire). It was not its own political subdivision.

At the time of the Balfour Declaration (2 November 1917), the phrase "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" was not actually defined by borders. It was assumed to be an undefined plot of land in Zone "B" of the Sykes-Picot Agreement (16 May 1916).

By April 1920 and the San Remo Convention, the plot of land [by then handled through the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA)] was expressed as the "territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them" (the Allied Powers). It was still undefined by boundaries.

In August 1922, this territory was defined by name as being that land which was within the limits of the Palestine Order in Council: the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, and short titled as → "hereinafter described as Palestine." But, it was still not totally defined by borders.

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

(COMMENT)

By the 1930's, as an outcome of a Joint Surveyor Team, the land parcel that was within the limits of the Palestine Order in Council: the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies was described as:

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.
​

Today, the Territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, has changed again. It is a composite landscape → composed of the Territorial Sovereignty of Israel, territorial Plot of the Gaza Strip which was unilaterally abandoned by the Israelis and left to its own self-determination. And the composite landscape includes Areas "A" (full Arab Palestinian civil and security control) - "B" (Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control) - "C" (full Israeli civil and security control) and Jerusalem (part of which is sovereign Israeli Territory).

I suspect that our friend P F Tinmore is using some meaning for "Palestine" that simply oversimplifies the area and does not really have a political meaning that is clear cut. It even takes the UN Office of Legal Affairs a four-page Memo (2012) to explain what the confusion is in the terminology. But what I gather, the designation of "Palestine" should be used in place of the "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

Uhh , it’s quite simple . They have DECLARED AND INTERNATIONAL borders with Israel, not with Palestine . Simple as that. We’ve proved it to you many times , yet you can’t handle the truth.

Israel claiming borders on land that the UN calls Palestine is an interesting legal concept.

The US paying Egypt and Jordan billions to accept those borders is another interesting legal concept.

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

Only two of Israel's five potential land borders are internationally recognized

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia

Since you clearly have trouble reading, I bolded and underlined the words INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED

Israel is not claiming nothing, two of its borders are INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED:

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

View attachment 314164​

Yeah, this is a common problem among those pro-Arab Palestinians. They think that they can ignore the change in the meaning of the nomenclature: "Palestine"

Since before The Great War (WWI), the territory under the Ottoman Empire that was informally called by the name "Palestine" (of biblical times) was actually not a single political subdivision. It was a geospatial landscape that stretched across several Sanjaks (Districts) of two different Vilayets (first-order administrative division, or province of the later Ottoman Empire). It was not its own political subdivision.

At the time of the Balfour Declaration (2 November 1917), the phrase "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" was not actually defined by borders. It was assumed to be an undefined plot of land in Zone "B" of the Sykes-Picot Agreement (16 May 1916).

By April 1920 and the San Remo Convention, the plot of land [by then handled through the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA)] was expressed as the "territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them" (the Allied Powers). It was still undefined by boundaries.

In August 1922, this territory was defined by name as being that land which was within the limits of the Palestine Order in Council: the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, and short titled as → "hereinafter described as Palestine." But, it was still not totally defined by borders.

You are dodging the links in my post. You probably did not read them.

I did read them. But you are dodging my posts that Israel has INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS . Palestine does not.

(COMMENT)

By the 1930's, as an outcome of a Joint Surveyor Team, the land parcel that was within the limits of the Palestine Order in Council: the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies was described as:

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.
​

Today, the Territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, has changed again. It is a composite landscape → composed of the Territorial Sovereignty of Israel, territorial Plot of the Gaza Strip which was unilaterally abandoned by the Israelis and left to its own self-determination. And the composite landscape includes Areas "A" (full Arab Palestinian civil and security control) - "B" (Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control) - "C" (full Israeli civil and security control) and Jerusalem (part of which is sovereign Israeli Territory).

I suspect that our friend P F Tinmore is using some meaning for "Palestine" that simply oversimplifies the area and does not really have a political meaning that is clear cut. It even takes the UN Office of Legal Affairs a four-page Memo (2012) to explain what the confusion is in the terminology. But what I gather, the designation of "Palestine" should be used in place of the "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO).

Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you for this post Rocco. I think I speak for all of us when I say we appreciate your knowledge.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

Oh dear. You DO realize that is how international law concerning borders between States works, right? We say so. We, the Parties involved, create a mutual agreement delineating borders between our two States. That is literally how it works. Mutual agreement is the entire basis of relations between States.

So, where is that treaty between those two states?

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ et al,

BLUF: • Annex 1, Charter of the League of Arab States 1945 •
Excerpt:
(1) Annex Regarding Palestine Since the termination of the last great war the rule of the Ottoman Empire over the Arab countries, among them Palestine, which bad become detached from that Empire, has come to an end. She has come to be autonomous, not subordinate to any other state. The Treaty of Lausanne proclaimed that her future was to be settled by the parties concerned. However, even though she was as yet unable to control her own affairs, the Covenant of the League (of Nations) in 1919 made provision for a regime based upon recognition of her independence. Her international existence and independence in the legal sense cannot, therefore, be questioned, any more than could the independence of the other Arab countries. Although the outward manifestations of this independence have remained obscured for reasons beyond her control, this should not be allowed to interfere with her participation in the work of the Council of the League. The states signatory to the Pact of the Arab League are therefore of the opinion that, considering the special circumstances of Palestine and until that country can effectively exercise its independence, the Council of the League should take charge of the selection of an Arab representative from Palestine to take part in its work.

So, where is that treaty between those two states?

Link?

(COMMENT)

As you can see from the BLUF, even the "ARAB LEAGUE" questions the nature of "Palestine." The members of the Arab League are bound together by Charter as if it were a Treaty. This is similar to the relationship between the members of the UN and the Charter.

The question is: "Can Palestine and until that country can effectively exercise its independence?" I think after seven decades, the answer is a categorical "NO."


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ et al,

BLUF: • Annex 1, Charter of the League of Arab States 1945 •
Excerpt:
(1) Annex Regarding Palestine Since the termination of the last great war the rule of the Ottoman Empire over the Arab countries, among them Palestine, which bad become detached from that Empire, has come to an end. She has come to be autonomous, not subordinate to any other state. The Treaty of Lausanne proclaimed that her future was to be settled by the parties concerned. However, even though she was as yet unable to control her own affairs, the Covenant of the League (of Nations) in 1919 made provision for a regime based upon recognition of her independence. Her international existence and independence in the legal sense cannot, therefore, be questioned, any more than could the independence of the other Arab countries. Although the outward manifestations of this independence have remained obscured for reasons beyond her control, this should not be allowed to interfere with her participation in the work of the Council of the League. The states signatory to the Pact of the Arab League are therefore of the opinion that, considering the special circumstances of Palestine and until that country can effectively exercise its independence, the Council of the League should take charge of the selection of an Arab representative from Palestine to take part in its work.

So, where is that treaty between those two states?

Link?

(COMMENT)

As you can see from the BLUF, even the "ARAB LEAGUE" questions the nature of "Palestine." The members of the Arab League are bound together by Charter as if it were a Treaty. This is similar to the relationship between the members of the UN and the Charter.

The question is: "Can Palestine and until that country can effectively exercise its independence?" I think after seven decades, the answer is a categorical "NO."


Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine has been under military occupation since its inception. This illegal external interference has prevented them from exercising their rights as a people.

States do not disappear when they are under occupation.

Occupations do not acquire territory or sovereignty. Peoples rights are not negated by occupation.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Nonsense

Palestine has been under military occupation since its inception. This illegal external interference has prevented them from exercising their rights as a people.

(COMMENT)

You supposition here is completely wrong. The handover by The Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) to the Mandated Civil Administration in July 1920, marked the end of military occupation (alla Article 42 • "placed under the authority of the hostile army"). The Territory, formerly under the Mandate had NOT come under occupation again until → the invasion by the Arab League in 1948.

When do you consider the "inception of Palestine" to be? I follow the timeline specified by the UN Legal Affairs Office as outlined in Posting #15154 of this discussion. Pray tell, what fairy tale are you following?

States do not disappear when they are under occupation.

(COMMENT)

Well, that is debatable. The term "occupation" is a relatively new term to be defined by international law. And more than have of the nations in Europe and the Middle East have changed politically or undergone sovereign changes since the Fall of Constantinople. Hell, by the conclusion of The Great War, four of the major Empires fell (German Empire, Ottoman Empire, Australia-Hungary Empire, and Imperial Russia).

Occupations do not acquire territory or sovereignty. Peoples rights are not negated by occupation.

(COMMENT)

The "Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty" and the "Civil and Political Rights of the People" are two entirely different sets of concepts. And "Prescription" is yet, a third concept to be considered excluding "Terra Nullius." In the case of the abandonment of the West Bank and Jerusalem by the Jordanians, there was no Arab Palestinian government in hand and the effective control over those areas was Israeli.

(REALITY)

It is important that the state of control and operation over the territory under discussion be understood as they actually exist with the Region of Conflict (RoC). In general, that would include The West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. It is essential to understand the conditions as they actually are → and NOT some imaginary state of affairs.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Those are say so borders. Those peace agreements were not brokered by the UN they were brokered by the US.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Golan is part of Israel. Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan.

Why is that? Because we say so.

Oh dear. You DO realize that is how international law concerning borders between States works, right? We say so. We, the Parties involved, create a mutual agreement delineating borders between our two States. That is literally how it works. Mutual agreement is the entire basis of relations between States.

So it would be OK for Germany and Spain to agree to have a mutual border in the middle of France? That is an agreement between two states.