Palestine Today

[Mindful]

Tinman;

What, in your humble opinion is the reason the Pals turned down three offers of statehood?

Can hardly wait for this.

Keep it humble.

The Palestinians have never been "offered" statehood. They turn down "offers" to give away most of their country.

You don't do discussion, do you?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinman;

What, in your humble opinion is the reason the Pals turned down three offers of statehood?

Can hardly wait for this.

Keep it humble.

The Palestinians have never been "offered" statehood. They turn down "offers" to give away most of their country.

You don't do discussion, do you?

Sure I do. When have the Palestinians ever been offered anything that did not include partition?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Mindful, et al,

Yes, this is the standard political position which follows the idea that the land of Palestine "is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations:"

◈ Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

◈ Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

------------------------------ OR PUT ANOTHER WAY ------------------------------​

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

◈ Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim​

Tinman;

What, in your humble opinion is the reason the Pals turned down three offers of statehood?

Can hardly wait for this.

Keep it humble.

The Palestinians have never been "offered" statehood. They turn down "offers" to give away most of their country.

You don't do discussion, do you?

Sure I do. When have the Palestinians ever been offered anything that did not include partition?

(COMMENT)

With that kind of thinking (the rejection of "Partition") and under that constraint, there is no solution except the deconstruction of the Jewish National Home and the institution of a One-State Solution. This places the future of the Jewish People in the hands of the majority (Arab Palestinians) which can then use the color of law to legally persecute the Jewish People.

Without regard to any promise of peace and justice by the Arab Palestinians, it is not likely that the Israelis will ever place the protection of the Jewish National Home in their hands.

As long as the Arab Palestinian threat against the Jewish National Home is still promoted by both clerics and politicians, so long will Israel (it appears) maintain its current course of action.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Mindful, et al,

Yes, this is the standard political position which follows the idea that the land of Palestine "is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations:"

◈ Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

◈ Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

------------------------------ OR PUT ANOTHER WAY ------------------------------​

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

◈ Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim​

Tinman;

What, in your humble opinion is the reason the Pals turned down three offers of statehood?

Can hardly wait for this.

Keep it humble.

The Palestinians have never been "offered" statehood. They turn down "offers" to give away most of their country.

You don't do discussion, do you?

Sure I do. When have the Palestinians ever been offered anything that did not include partition?

(COMMENT)

With that kind of thinking (the rejection of "Partition") and under that constraint, there is no solution except the deconstruction of the Jewish National Home and the institution of a One-State Solution. This places the future of the Jewish People in the hands of the majority (Arab Palestinians) which can then use the color of law to legally persecute the Jewish People.

Without regard to any promise of peace and justice by the Arab Palestinians, it is not likely that the Israelis will ever place the protection of the Jewish National Home in their hands.

As long as the Arab Palestinian threat against the Jewish National Home is still promoted by both clerics and politicians, so long will Israel (it appears) maintain its current course of action.

Most Respectfully,
R

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

Indeed, that is Palestinian territory defined by international borders. And, the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

No such thing. There has never been a Palestinian Territory defined by International Borders. I know you keep saying that, but it is simply NO TRUE.

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

Indeed, that is Palestinian territory defined by international borders. And, the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

• Part I Preliminary - Palestine Order In Council (1922) •

◈ This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• 
  The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

◈ Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E. • Report - Council of the League of Nations on the Administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan For the Year 1932

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.

The boundaries are described as follows:--

• 
  South.--From a point west of Rafa on the Mediterranean to a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba.
  
  East.--From a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba up the centre of the Wadi Araba, the Dead Sea, and the River Jordan, to the junction of the latter with the River Yarmuk, thence up the centre of the River Yarmuk to the Syrian frontier.
  
  North.--The northern boundary was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Stated briefly, the boundary runs from Ras el Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to Metulla and across the upper Jordan valley to Banias, thence to Jisr Banat Yaqub, thence along the Jordan to the Lake of Tiberias on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line.
  
  West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people. While they like to take that liberty, it is simply NOT TRUE. As pointed out in the

A05 Mavrommatis Jerusalem Concessions

Judgment of 26 March 1925 (including the text of the declaration of M. Altamira)
AKA: Judgement #5 Permanent Court of International Justice

Series A: Collection of Judgments (1923-1930)

​

The Government of Palestine = HM Government and NOT the Palestinians People.

Don't let the name "Palestine" fool you.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

No such thing. There has never been a Palestinian Territory defined by International Borders. I know you keep saying that, but it is simply NO TRUE.

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

Indeed, that is Palestinian territory defined by international borders. And, the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

• Part I Preliminary - Palestine Order In Council (1922) •

◈ This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• 
  The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

◈ Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E. • Report - Council of the League of Nations on the Administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan For the Year 1932

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.

The boundaries are described as follows:--

• 
  South.--From a point west of Rafa on the Mediterranean to a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba.
  
  East.--From a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba up the centre of the Wadi Araba, the Dead Sea, and the River Jordan, to the junction of the latter with the River Yarmuk, thence up the centre of the River Yarmuk to the Syrian frontier.
  
  North.--The northern boundary was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Stated briefly, the boundary runs from Ras el Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to Metulla and across the upper Jordan valley to Banias, thence to Jisr Banat Yaqub, thence along the Jordan to the Lake of Tiberias on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line.
  
  West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people. While they like to take that liberty, it is simply NOT TRUE. As pointed out in the

A05 Mavrommatis Jerusalem Concessions

Judgment of 26 March 1925 (including the text of the declaration of M. Altamira)
AKA: Judgement #5 Permanent Court of International Justice

Series A: Collection of Judgments (1923-1930)

View attachment 241923
​

The Government of Palestine = HM Government and NOT the Palestinians People.

Don't let the name "Palestine" fool you.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Government of Palestine = HM Government and NOT the Palestinians People.

Not so, they were stated as two different things.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

No such thing. There has never been a Palestinian Territory defined by International Borders. I know you keep saying that, but it is simply NO TRUE.

◈ Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

Indeed, that is Palestinian territory defined by international borders. And, the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

• Part I Preliminary - Palestine Order In Council (1922) •

◈ This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• 
  The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

◈ Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E. • Report - Council of the League of Nations on the Administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan For the Year 1932

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.

The boundaries are described as follows:--

• 
  South.--From a point west of Rafa on the Mediterranean to a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba.
  
  East.--From a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba up the centre of the Wadi Araba, the Dead Sea, and the River Jordan, to the junction of the latter with the River Yarmuk, thence up the centre of the River Yarmuk to the Syrian frontier.
  
  North.--The northern boundary was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Stated briefly, the boundary runs from Ras el Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to Metulla and across the upper Jordan valley to Banias, thence to Jisr Banat Yaqub, thence along the Jordan to the Lake of Tiberias on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line.
  
  West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people. While they like to take that liberty, it is simply NOT TRUE. As pointed out in the

A05 Mavrommatis Jerusalem Concessions

Judgment of 26 March 1925 (including the text of the declaration of M. Altamira)
AKA: Judgement #5 Permanent Court of International Justice

Series A: Collection of Judgments (1923-1930)

View attachment 241923
​

The Government of Palestine = HM Government and NOT the Palestinians People.

Don't let the name "Palestine" fool you.

Most Respectfully,
R

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people.

I have links. What do you have?

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ethnic cleansing through the back door.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel just ‘lost Cronkite’ — the struggle for Palestinian rights at ‘The New York Times’

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I gave you three reference links. All of which are official, not external interpretations.

[

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people.

I have links. What do you have?

(COMMENT)

I would be very interestest in an official interpretation whereas any International Demarcation indicates:

◈ A Palestinian Sovereign Territory on one side.
◈ Any Sovereign Territory on the other.​

This would be especially interesting if you could cite an Official Demarcation with the West Bank Sovereignty on one side and different sovereignty on the other.

In fact, I would be very interested if you could cite any official demarcation (including an Armistice Line or any other territorial agreement) wherein any sovereignty actually recognizes a specific boundary where the Arab Palestine People have true sovereignty one any boundary.

No matter who you would consider as President of Palestine, I would be very interested in any information you would have on the length and breadth of that sovereignty. I suspect you would even have a problem with that for anything prior to 29 November 2012 (A/RES/67/19 Palestine non-member Observer State 4 DEC 2012).

For your consideration, I would point you to the UN Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs Memorandum:

◈ Subject: Issues related to General Assembly resolution 67/19 on the Status of Palestine in the United Nations, dated 11 December 2012.​

Among other things that the UN says about the Status is:

[

​

It is my contention that, as the UN Undersecretary explains:

◈ During the period: 15 December 1988 (UN Resolution 43/177) to 29 November 2012 the designation of Palestine" was used in place of the "Palestine Liberation Organization."

◈ After the 29 November 2012: "Palestine" is recognized as a State (State of Palestine) with the "Head of State as His Excellency Mr Mahmoud Abbas, President of the State of Palestine."​

I hope this, with the Previous links I have referenced, helps explain my position. Now I realize that you do not recognize any of this. As in the past, I have in our various conversations, discussed this and more, with many more "LINKs." But, I would like to make reference to one more salient point in the UN Memo:

​

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I gave you three reference links. All of which are official, not external interpretations.

[

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people.

I have links. What do you have?

(COMMENT)

I would be very interestest in an official interpretation whereas any International Demarcation indicates:

◈ A Palestinian Sovereign Territory on one side.
◈ Any Sovereign Territory on the other.​

This would be especially interesting if you could cite an Official Demarcation with the West Bank Sovereignty on one side and different sovereignty on the other.

In fact, I would be very interested if you could cite any official demarcation (including an Armistice Line or any other territorial agreement) wherein any sovereignty actually recognizes a specific boundary where the Arab Palestine People have true sovereignty one any boundary.

No matter who you would consider as President of Palestine, I would be very interested in any information you would have on the length and breadth of that sovereignty. I suspect you would even have a problem with that for anything prior to 29 November 2012 (A/RES/67/19 Palestine non-member Observer State 4 DEC 2012).

For your consideration, I would point you to the UN Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs Memorandum:

◈ Subject: Issues related to General Assembly resolution 67/19 on the Status of Palestine in the United Nations, dated 11 December 2012.​

Among other things that the UN says about the Status is:

[View attachment 241992
​

It is my contention that, as the UN Undersecretary explains:

◈ During the period: 15 December 1988 (UN Resolution 43/177) to 29 November 2012 the designation of Palestine" was used in place of the "Palestine Liberation Organization."

◈ After the 29 November 2012: "Palestine" is recognized as a State (State of Palestine) with the "Head of State as His Excellency Mr Mahmoud Abbas, President of the State of Palestine."​

I hope this, with the Previous links I have referenced, helps explain my position. Now I realize that you do not recognize any of this. As in the past, I have in our various conversations, discussed this and more, with many more "LINKs." But, I would like to make reference to one more salient point in the UN Memo:

​

View attachment 241993

​

Most Respectfully,
R

There is no legal requirement for a two state solution.

There are no borders inside Palestine's international borders defining territory.

 

[USAF 2023]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I gave you three reference links. All of which are official, not external interpretations.

[

What you claim as "Palestinian territory defined by international borders" is not to be construed as some sort of legacy to the Arab Palestinian people.

I have links. What do you have?

(COMMENT)

I would be very interestest in an official interpretation whereas any International Demarcation indicates:

◈ A Palestinian Sovereign Territory on one side.
◈ Any Sovereign Territory on the other.​

This would be especially interesting if you could cite an Official Demarcation with the West Bank Sovereignty on one side and different sovereignty on the other.

In fact, I would be very interested if you could cite any official demarcation (including an Armistice Line or any other territorial agreement) wherein any sovereignty actually recognizes a specific boundary where the Arab Palestine People have true sovereignty one any boundary.

No matter who you would consider as President of Palestine, I would be very interested in any information you would have on the length and breadth of that sovereignty. I suspect you would even have a problem with that for anything prior to 29 November 2012 (A/RES/67/19 Palestine non-member Observer State 4 DEC 2012).

For your consideration, I would point you to the UN Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs Memorandum:

◈ Subject: Issues related to General Assembly resolution 67/19 on the Status of Palestine in the United Nations, dated 11 December 2012.​

Among other things that the UN says about the Status is:

[View attachment 241992
​

It is my contention that, as the UN Undersecretary explains:

◈ During the period: 15 December 1988 (UN Resolution 43/177) to 29 November 2012 the designation of Palestine" was used in place of the "Palestine Liberation Organization."

◈ After the 29 November 2012: "Palestine" is recognized as a State (State of Palestine) with the "Head of State as His Excellency Mr Mahmoud Abbas, President of the State of Palestine."​

I hope this, with the Previous links I have referenced, helps explain my position. Now I realize that you do not recognize any of this. As in the past, I have in our various conversations, discussed this and more, with many more "LINKs." But, I would like to make reference to one more salient point in the UN Memo:

​

View attachment 241993

​

Most Respectfully,
R

There is no legal requirement for a two state solution.

There are no borders inside Palestine's international borders defining territory.

Here we go again. On one hand he talks about Israel not abiding by “ International law “; then he admits it doesn’t exist. He actually gives reason as to why Israel should not abide by those “ laws”. Keep posting!

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
DIVERSION FROM THE QUESTION​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You get this wrong quite frequently...

There is no legal requirement for a two-state solution.

There are no borders inside Palestine's international borders defining territory.

(COMMENT ONE HIGHER ORDER)

CHALLENGE: "inside Palestine's international borders"​

◈ The General Assymbly, after the adoption of Resolution 67/19, has continued to use the wording - "Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem → to define the whole geograpic area that was occupied since the 1967 War (but only that limited area meaning the West Bank and Gaza Strip). When they designated "Palestine or the State of Palestine" the UN means very specific territorial limits.

There is no designation for such a thing as the "Occupied Palestinian State" or the "Occupied State of Palestine." That wording, as the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs points out, is false and misleading → and specifically not to be use.

Thus, in that respect, there are no borders inside Palestine.​

(COMMENT TWO LOWER ORDER)

Outside of the above, it is perfectly proper to refer directly to those international boundaries established by treaties.

◈ Article II - Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty (26 March 1979) •

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

◈ Article 3 - The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •​

✧ The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
✧ The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
✧ The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
✧ The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.​

The leadership of the recognized "State of Palestine" has never attempted to define its borders by treaty or any other international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law under the [Vienna Convention Law Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980)].

You have in the past, attempted to use both the Treaty of Lausanne and the Allied Powers intent. But these do not nullify the Treaty Arrangements between States.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
DIVERSION FROM THE QUESTION​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You get this wrong quite frequently...

There is no legal requirement for a two-state solution.

There are no borders inside Palestine's international borders defining territory.

(COMMENT ONE HIGHER ORDER)

CHALLENGE: "inside Palestine's international borders"​

◈ The General Assymbly, after the adoption of Resolution 67/19, has continued to use the wording - "Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem → to define the whole geograpic area that was occupied since the 1967 War (but only that limited area meaning the West Bank and Gaza Strip). When they designated "Palestine or the State of Palestine" the UN means very specific territorial limits.

There is no designation for such a thing as the "Occupied Palestinian State" or the "Occupied State of Palestine." That wording, as the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs points out, is false and misleading → and specifically not to be use.

Thus, in that respect, there are no borders inside Palestine.​

(COMMENT TWO LOWER ORDER)

Outside of the above, it is perfectly proper to refer directly to those international boundaries established by treaties.

◈ Article II - Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty (26 March 1979) •

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

◈ Article 3 - The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •​

✧ The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
✧ The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
✧ The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
✧ The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.​

The leadership of the recognized "State of Palestine" has never attempted to define its borders by treaty or any other international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law under the [Vienna Convention Law Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980)].

You have in the past, attempted to use both the Treaty of Lausanne and the Allied Powers intent. But these do not nullify the Treaty Arrangements between States.

Most Respectfully,
R

The leadership of the recognized "State of Palestine" has never attempted to define its borders by treaty or any other international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law under the [Vienna Convention Law Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980)].

It doesn't have to. Palestine's international borders nave been uncontested since 1924.

Article 53
Treaties conflicting with
a peremptory norm of
general international law (“jus cogens”)​

A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.