Paleontologist Explains What The Fossils Really Say

[Mushroom]

Dr Gunther Bechly says Darwin was wrong

Ahhh, a video from a group that supports Creationism. How neutral such a thing is.

Sorry, not buying whatever it is he is selling.

 

[alang1216]

No one can see millions of years.

You mean you can't. A geologist can.

I asked about catastrophes changing the Earth ahead of you making your point because a catastrophe such as a flood would hasten limestone to form.

Limestone never forms from a flood. It requires quiet water.

Almost all of the limestone that we observe were laid down by large amounts of water. Lime rich volcanic waters gushed up from the ocean floor.

Are there lime volcanic waters gushing up today? I don't think so.

We can see it as we have 3/4 of our planet covered by water. I have observable evidence in the mid-Atlantic Ridge and plate tectonics showing the Himalayas and Mt. Everest were formed by plate tectonics in our ocean floor. The limestone is on top of the Himalayas and Mt. Everest. How do you explain that with your uniformitarianism?

You're right Himalayas and Mt. Everest were formed by plate tectonics, but not 'in our ocean floor'. India collided with Asia and the limestone layer between them were pushed upward.

The Earth was different in the near past and was formed by catastrophism such as the Grand Canyon (further evidence).

The Earth was different but there is no reason to think the mechanisms were any different. Floods can be catastrophic but they happen regularly. In some places, every year. What is your evidence that the Grand Canyon was created by a catastrophe and not just your every-day erosion?

 

[alang1216]

There are things like subduction that can cause layers to tilt, but there could never be any significant reversing of layers.

Actually folding of layers during mountain building and thrust faults could reverse layers but each leaves tell-tale clues behind.

 

[Mushroom]

Limestone never forms from a flood. It requires quiet water.

I am actually laughing at the lack of science in some.

Do they actually think "limestone" is created as deposits from "lime volcanoes"? Or is deposited by "lime rich waters"?

Wow, maybe we should then add in some lemon rich waters, and we could have an ocean of 7-Up.

I am reading the posts you are responding to, it makes me wonder why this thread is still even in the "Science" section. Do we even have a posting area for "fairy tales"?

 

[Mushroom]

Actually folding of layers during mountain building and thrust faults could reverse layers but each leaves tell-tale clues behind.

Hell, I used to live about a mile from one of the most famous examples of this.

Commonly known as the "Palmdale Cut", or "The Great Wave", this is literally where California State Route 14 cuts through the San Andreas Fault. And being an amateur geologist myself I am always looking for and studying formations like this. One thing that many do not realize, is that the US Freeway System has been a literal gold mine for geology. As there are hundreds of thousands of examples of strata like this, that had almost never been seen before.

In Idaho, it is possible to even see evidence of vulcanism quite easily, as many roads cut through where lava at one point had passed through the crust and leaving behind the evidence.

 

[Astrostar]

Dr Gunther Bechly says Darwin was wrong

The creationist crowd will never give it up. They are just like the christians, confederates and trump, forever chasing ghosts! Bigly!!!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Do they actually think "limestone" is created as deposits from "lime volcanoes"? Or is deposited by "lime rich waters"?

It is deposited in part by waters rich in dissolved calcium. So, like you said, not "lime".

 

[Mushroom]

They are just like the christians

You might want to be careful about stereotyping there.

I am a "Christian", and fully accept conventional cosmology, evolution, and how almost all of science sees the evolution of the planet and universe.

Do not confuse most with the Fundamentalists. They are very much in the minority.

 

[Mushroom]

It is deposited in part by waters rich in dissolved calcium. So, like you said, not "lime".

Actually, no.

Oh, it is believed that in some rare cases this might have happened. But almost every example known it is nothing more than sea life. Coral, shells, even the skeletons of plankton that build up over millions of years, then eventually is thrust up above the oceans by crustal lifting. Hell, one of my favorite things to do whenever I find limestone is to examine it for shells.

And yes, I have actually done that in many places. All over the US, on a high ridge in Panama, in Japan, and in the Middle East. Limestone is almost always made up of little but shells, and that is why it is so rich in shell fossils.

But please, tell me where I can find these "waters rich in calcium". I could drink that, and never need to drink milk ever again.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Actually, no.

Actually, yes. Some limestone is, indeed, formed by precipitation. And evaporation.

 

[Mushroom]

Actually, yes. Some limestone is, indeed, formed by precipitation. And evaporation.

Very few. The vast majority comes from fossilized sea life.

Might as well talk about the percent of CO2 that comes from plants that absorb oxygen and emit carbon dioxide.

In general, when discussing things scientific you should discuss the majority, not the minority of cause and effect.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Very few. The vast majority comes from fossilized sea life.

Yes, true. The scientists say that biological processes have dominated Limestone formation for the last 540 million years.

 

[Mushroom]

Yes, true. The scientists say that biological processes have dominated Limestone formation for the last 540 million years.

Oh, it goes back much farther than that. All the way to the Proterozoic, starting roughly 2.5 gya. And even the "precipitate" starting then was in the form of calcium carbonates. Literally the skeletons of proto-plankton. The "precipitation" was still created from a biological process. And 95% of the limestone on the planet dates to this period and afterwards.

The majority of the rest dates to the Archean, 2.5 to 4 gya. Once again, largely from biological processes as this is now where the evidence of the first forms of life have been found.

 

[james bond]

That makes no sense.
Obviously, depth indicates time, as well as the mineralization process the fossils exhibit.
And there are an infinite number of slow variants that make creationism impossible.
If an all knowing and all powerful being made species, then they would have been made perfect from day one.
No change would be needed or allowed.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense due to the wrath of God.

It makes plenty of sense except to uniformitarian atheists, i.e. nothing major happens to the Earth in billions of years, who can't accept catastrophism. Today, we won't be around that long as global warming wipes us out. That's catastrophism and more evidence for creationism.

Earthquakes do not change layers.
They just shake them back and forth a bit.

There are things like subduction that can cause layers to tilt, but there could never be any significant reversing of layers.

We had a global flood where the water came up from the oceans below sea level. The evidence is there with the fountains of the deep in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. I guess you missed that.

 

[james bond]

You mean you can't. A geologist can.


Limestone never forms from a flood. It requires quiet water.


Are there lime volcanic waters gushing up today? I don't think so.


You're right Himalayas and Mt. Everest were formed by plate tectonics, but not 'in our ocean floor'. India collided with Asia and the limestone layer between them were pushed upward.


The Earth was different but there is no reason to think the mechanisms were any different. Floods can be catastrophic but they happen regularly. In some places, every year. What is your evidence that the Grand Canyon was created by a catastrophe and not just your every-day erosion?

Let's ask a creationist geologist.

Flume experiments have verified that carbonate mud isn’t deposited slowly but rapidly by wave and current action.3 Laboratory experiments demonstrate that water flowing between 10 and 20 inches per second creates ripples and laminated carbonate mud layers identical to those observed in carbonate rocks.4

3 Schieber, J. et al. 2013. Experimental Deposition of Carbonate Mud from Moving Suspensions: Importance of Flocculation and Implications For Modern and Ancient Carbonate Mud Deposition. Journal of Sedimentary Research. 83 (11): 1025-1031.

4 Boggs Jr., S. 2006. Principles of Sedimentology and Stratigraphy, 4th ed. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson/Prentice Hall, 159-167.

There are deep ocean volcanoes and they can bring up the seafloor in a process called seafloor spreading. WW II Japanese ships on the bottom of the ocean have been brought up this way.

As for the Grand Canyon, nobody can observe nor test that it was carved out by the Colorado River. Instead, it would take a giant amount of water like that necessary for a global flood -- Grand Canyon Carved by Flood Runoff.

 

[alang1216]

Let's ask a creationist geologist.

Flume experiments have verified that carbonate mud isn’t deposited slowly but rapidly by wave and current action.3 Laboratory experiments demonstrate that water flowing between 10 and 20 inches per second creates ripples and laminated carbonate mud layers identical to those observed in carbonate rocks.4

3 Schieber, J. et al. 2013. Experimental Deposition of Carbonate Mud from Moving Suspensions: Importance of Flocculation and Implications For Modern and Ancient Carbonate Mud Deposition. Journal of Sedimentary Research. 83 (11): 1025-1031.

4 Boggs Jr., S. 2006. Principles of Sedimentology and Stratigraphy, 4th ed. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson/Prentice Hall, 159-167.

Your link didn't work.

There are deep ocean volcanoes and they can bring up the seafloor in a process called seafloor spreading.

I don't believe this is true except in very rare cases like Iceland. In fact the opposite is generally true.

WW II Japanese ships on the bottom of the ocean have been brought up this way.

Never heard of this, got a link?

As for the Grand Canyon, nobody can observe nor test that it was carved out by the Colorado River. Instead, it would take a giant amount of water like that necessary for a global flood -- Grand Canyon Carved by Flood Runoff.

In fact just the opposite is true. Below is a map of the Colorado River in the GC. You can see the bends in the river. Only slow moving rivers have such bends, floods cut straight courses. The Colorado was already there when the uplift occurred so it kept its' original winding course.

 

[Anomalism]

Lol

Understanding everything is just easier when you believe in magic.

 

[Hollie]

Let's ask a creationist geologist.

Flume experiments have verified that carbonate mud isn’t deposited slowly but rapidly by wave and current action.3 Laboratory experiments demonstrate that water flowing between 10 and 20 inches per second creates ripples and laminated carbonate mud layers identical to those observed in carbonate rocks.4

3 Schieber, J. et al. 2013. Experimental Deposition of Carbonate Mud from Moving Suspensions: Importance of Flocculation and Implications For Modern and Ancient Carbonate Mud Deposition. Journal of Sedimentary Research. 83 (11): 1025-1031.

4 Boggs Jr., S. 2006. Principles of Sedimentology and Stratigraphy, 4th ed. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson/Prentice Hall, 159-167.

There are deep ocean volcanoes and they can bring up the seafloor in a process called seafloor spreading. WW II Japanese ships on the bottom of the ocean have been brought up this way.

As for the Grand Canyon, nobody can observe nor test that it was carved out by the Colorado River. Instead, it would take a giant amount of water like that necessary for a global flood -- Grand Canyon Carved by Flood Runoff.

Why dump links to creationer loons in the Science and Technology forum?

 

[james bond]

Your link didn't work.


I don't believe this is true except in very rare cases like Iceland. In fact the opposite is generally true.


Never heard of this, got a link?


In fact just the opposite is true. Below is a map of the Colorado River in the GC. You can see the bends in the river. Only slow moving rivers have such bends, floods cut straight courses. The Colorado was already there when the uplift occurred so it kept its' original winding course.

Your link didn't work.


I don't believe this is true except in very rare cases like Iceland. In fact the opposite is generally true.


Never heard of this, got a link?


In fact just the opposite is true. Below is a map of the Colorado River in the GC. You can see the bends in the river. Only slow moving rivers have such bends, floods cut straight courses. The Colorado was already there when the uplift occurred so it kept its' original winding course.

Try this one -- Experimental Deposition of Carbonate Mud From Moving Suspensions: Importance of Flocculation and Implications For Modern and Ancient Carbonate Mud DepositionCurrent Ripples | Journal of Sedimentary Research | GeoScienceWorld.

No, it's the norm. Not the exception. You are wrong again -- seafloor spreading | Evidence & Process.

Here's the Japanese WW II ships. Will their ghosts get you now ? WWII 'ghost ships' rise from Pacific after volcanic eruption

We'll have to disagree on the Colorado river as creation science vs. atheist science. We can't see millions of years and you can't prove millions of years as radiometric dating in 1956 was erroneous.

 

[james bond]

Lol

Understanding everything is just easier when you believe in magic.

That's evolution as no one can observe or test it.