Our founding fathers were not conservative

More Founder's Wisdom



"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
-- Thomas Paine
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies."
- George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
"...the opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"[T]he powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its
jurisdiction."
-- James Madison, Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention [June 6, 1788]
"I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country"
-- Nathan Hale (Sept 22, 1776, before being executed as a spy by the British)
When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
-- Benjamin Franklin
...[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
--James Madison
"No nation was ever ruined by trade, even seemingly the most disadvantageous."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Principles of Trade, 1774
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."
-- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
-- Thomas Paine, Dissertation on First Principles of Government, December 23, 1791
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Representative Robert Goodloe Harper, Address, June 18, 1798 (Harper was the Chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means)
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."
-- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 4, September 11, 1777
"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
-- George Washington, First Annual Message, January 8, 1790
"The fundamental article of my political creed is that despotism, or unlimited sovereignty, or absolute power, is the same in a majority of a popular assembly, an aristocratic council, an oligarchical junto, and a single emperor."
-- John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson [November 13, 1815]
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"One single object. . . [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
" I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."
-- Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn and Management of the Poor, November 1776
"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"Prices are important not because money is considered paramount but because prices are a fast and effective conveyor of information through a vast society in which fragmented knowledge must be coordinated."
-- Thomas Sowell
"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder."
-- Ralph W. Sockman
"[The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several branches of government by certain laws, which, when they transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion, on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender those rights."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia [1782]
More Founder's Wisdom
 
The genius of American liberty is not the 2nd Amendment. If it were, the whiskey farmers of PA would have run off the national army in 1794, or the states of New England would have seceded in 1815. The genius, of course, is that that military subordinates itself to civilian control. Douglas MacArthur's greatest service to the country was stepping down immediately when relieved by Truman in 1951. If ever the military decides to take control, 2nd Amendment rights merely means many Americans will die before the military crushes out rebellion. That's why civil discourse among our political factions secure our liberties tightly.

Only an idiot would go head to head against a strong military force. hit quick and hit where it's not expected.. Keep your group small and maneuverable. max 4 man fire team.
 
Time after time it boils down to those explaining why they think our wallets, our time, our will, are subject to either their fancies, or the fancies of their keeper's. I say to any Free Beings listening, "Just Say No". It's really that simple. Choose Liberty. :) Their collars and leashes may look pretty, but take the time to think about the trade off. It's not worth it. Their only power is to force their will on others, by mandate, no matter how far from reason they stray, no matter how far from conscience, only by threat and penalty, do they accomplish their goal, there is nothing just or right behind it, and they don't like being reminded of that.
 
OH hell yell that is the point the current administration isn''t protecting the constitution nor the current elected officials.
What was the reason we have the right to keep and bear arms?

In this day and age? Personal protection or sport.

Back then..it was to be part of the US military..

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.

In this day an age? So you do not think the government can strip you of your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Tyrants have always existed the founders knew they would never go away. The total might of the U.S. military? How did we do in Vietnam? How are we doing in Afghanistan? Iran? both LEO and the military are still out numbered if only 3% of Americas gun owners said enough is enough.

I don't see what you are getting at..

And the Military did great in all those places. Over 2 million Vietnamese dead..thousands of dead in Afghanistan and they won the war in weeks. Iran? Different situation entirely, but if the US had invaded or does invade..Iran would not stand up very well.

And even "outnumbered", they are so well equipped and trained..an insurrection would be crushed very quickly.

China's armies are inferior to our own..and how do you think insurrections go there?
 
In this day and age? Personal protection or sport.

Back then..it was to be part of the US military..

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.

In this day an age? So you do not think the government can strip you of your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Tyrants have always existed the founders knew they would never go away. The total might of the U.S. military? How did we do in Vietnam? How are we doing in Afghanistan? Iran? both LEO and the military are still out numbered if only 3% of Americas gun owners said enough is enough.

I don't see what you are getting at..

And the Military did great in all those places. Over 2 million Vietnamese dead..thousands of dead in Afghanistan and they won the war in weeks. Iran? Different situation entirely, but if the US had invaded or does invade..Iran would not stand up very well.

And even "outnumbered", they are so well equipped and trained..an insurrection would be crushed very quickly.

China's armies are inferior to our own..and how do you think insurrections go there?

The military did great? who won? Doing great is not winning

China and insurrection? the chinese people do not have gun rights so more than likely they would fail. Plus the military is not under dirction of a Constitution, that protects the rights of the people. The people of china have no rights.
 
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More Founder's Wisdom



"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
-- Thomas Paine
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies."
- George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
"...the opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"[T]he powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its
jurisdiction."
-- James Madison, Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention [June 6, 1788]
"I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country"
-- Nathan Hale (Sept 22, 1776, before being executed as a spy by the British)
When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
-- Benjamin Franklin
...[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
--James Madison
"No nation was ever ruined by trade, even seemingly the most disadvantageous."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Principles of Trade, 1774
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."
-- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
-- Thomas Paine, Dissertation on First Principles of Government, December 23, 1791
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Representative Robert Goodloe Harper, Address, June 18, 1798 (Harper was the Chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means)
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."
-- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 4, September 11, 1777
"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
-- George Washington, First Annual Message, January 8, 1790
"The fundamental article of my political creed is that despotism, or unlimited sovereignty, or absolute power, is the same in a majority of a popular assembly, an aristocratic council, an oligarchical junto, and a single emperor."
-- John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson [November 13, 1815]
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"One single object. . . [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
" I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."
-- Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn and Management of the Poor, November 1776
"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"Prices are important not because money is considered paramount but because prices are a fast and effective conveyor of information through a vast society in which fragmented knowledge must be coordinated."
-- Thomas Sowell
"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder."
-- Ralph W. Sockman
"[The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several branches of government by certain laws, which, when they transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion, on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender those rights."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia [1782]
More Founder's Wisdom

Well done. Just because these words were spoken over 200 years ago does not make them less pertinent in the annals of the human experience as it relates to Liberty of the human individual.

These are things that must constantly be fought for at every turn.

If liberty was an easy proposition, then there wouldn't be a need for all the discourse we still find ourselves embroiled in to this day.

The Founders left a real legacy. They may be gone but for some of us? Their lessons are certainly not forgotten...only forgotten not to the peril of the tyranny that awaits.
 
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In this day and age? Personal protection or sport.

Back then..it was to be part of the US military..

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.

In this day an age? So you do not think the government can strip you of your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Tyrants have always existed the founders knew they would never go away. The total might of the U.S. military? How did we do in Vietnam? How are we doing in Afghanistan? Iran? both LEO and the military are still out numbered if only 3% of Americas gun owners said enough is enough.

I don't see what you are getting at..

And the Military did great in all those places. Over 2 million Vietnamese dead..thousands of dead in Afghanistan and they won the war in weeks. Iran? Different situation entirely, but if the US had invaded or does invade..Iran would not stand up very well.

And even "outnumbered", they are so well equipped and trained..an insurrection would be crushed very quickly.

China's armies are inferior to our own..and how do you think insurrections go there?

Little would withstand a full out assault, We spend billions avoiding collateral damage. What do you think the cost of a single daisy cutter compares to a cruise missile, in comparison? Few fight like us, few will go as far as we do to avoid unnecessary damage.
 
The beauty of the wisdom of the Founders can be found in what they did not do. They did not presume themselves to know all or what is best for all future American society .. and that reality can be found in what they did not address even though it was their reality .. like slavery.

They knew it would be a living document.
If you mean they left significant power with the states and created a means to change the Constitution as necessary, then you're right.
 
There isn't anything in the Constitution that even remotely says, "Here's your guns boys, now y'all make sure this doesn't become a tyranny, yah hear?"
Nothing.
Except Amendment II.

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.
Right - irregulars armed with small-arms could never hope to defeat the US military.
Except in Iraq and Afghanistan, of course.


Still waiting for you to cite the Article Section and Clause of the US Constitutionn that prohibits secession, pursuant to your claim of such.
 
In this day and age? Personal protection or sport.

Back then..it was to be part of the US military..

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.

In this day an age? So you do not think the government can strip you of your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Tyrants have always existed the founders knew they would never go away. The total might of the U.S. military? How did we do in Vietnam? How are we doing in Afghanistan? Iran? both LEO and the military are still out numbered if only 3% of Americas gun owners said enough is enough.

I don't see what you are getting at..

And the Military did great in all those places. Over 2 million Vietnamese dead..thousands of dead in Afghanistan and they won the war in weeks. Iran? Different situation entirely, but if the US had invaded or does invade..Iran would not stand up very well.

And even "outnumbered", they are so well equipped and trained..an insurrection would be crushed very quickly.

China's armies are inferior to our own..and how do you think insurrections go there?

Why don't you ASK those dissidents that are in Prison? How about that empty 'CHAIR' at the latest Nobel Ceremonies?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-rITpChntc&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
 
It's astonishing that people who get so worked up about the Constitution, really don't have much of a clue about what it really says.
Speaking of which...
Still waiting for you to cite the Article Section and Clause of the US Constitutionn that prohibits secession, pursuant to your claim of such.
 
Back in the days of Enumerated Powers the Right of Self Defense would be considered a State Issue. The fact that you don't recognize it as an unalienable right, is very concerning Sallow. You obviously do not know what personal boundaries are. How would you then know when you are trespassing???
Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.
 
So when are you going to offer something to the discussion? Opinions count for half a point Facts give you full credit.
We are governed by that piece of paper? That piece of paper doesn't mean anything to the democrats in the government. They have been on record saying that document doesn't matter. To them it is a way to legaly enslave the people of this country.

That document only has value when both party all elected officals do not use it to advance their agenda, or enslave the peoplke of this country.

Until then I will hold to the second Amendment as my rule of law.
Ultimately, all such contests come down to the ability and willingness of one side to exert sufficient force over the other.
This is exactly why the right to arms was protected by the Constution.
 
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Time after time it boils down to those explaining why they think our wallets, our time, our will, are subject to either their fancies, or the fancies of their keeper's. I say to any Free Beings listening, "Just Say No". It's really that simple. Choose Liberty. :) Their collars and leashes may look pretty, but take the time to think about the trade off. It's not worth it. Their only power is to force their will on others, by mandate, no matter how far from reason they stray, no matter how far from conscience, only by threat and penalty, do they accomplish their goal, there is nothing just or right behind it, and they don't like being reminded of that.

And the most pertinent lesson that these people are about to learn is that the wealth of this nation belongs to those that toil to unleash it, and not to those that portend to seize it and bestow it to those that know no toil other than just being alive.
 
Back in the days of Enumerated Powers the Right of Self Defense would be considered a State Issue. The fact that you don't recognize it as an unalienable right, is very concerning Sallow. You obviously do not know what personal boundaries are. How would you then know when you are trespassing???
Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.

But the sad thing about the ruling of US v Heller it was 5-4 just one more justice going the opposite way.... 5-4 ? It should have been 9-0
 
Back in the days of Enumerated Powers the Right of Self Defense would be considered a State Issue. The fact that you don't recognize it as an unalienable right, is very concerning Sallow. You obviously do not know what personal boundaries are. How would you then know when you are trespassing???
Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.

But the sad thing about the ruling of US v Heller it was 5-4 just one more justice going the opposite way.... 5-4 ? It should have been 9-0

The fact that so many key rulings are split like that, is testament to the fact that the Court, not being accountable to anything more than itself, leaving us no recourse for petition beyond it, is a mis-characterization of it's role.
 
15th post
Back in the days of Enumerated Powers the Right of Self Defense would be considered a State Issue. The fact that you don't recognize it as an unalienable right, is very concerning Sallow. You obviously do not know what personal boundaries are. How would you then know when you are trespassing???
Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.
But the sad thing about the ruling of US v Heller it was 5-4 just one more justice going the opposite way.... 5-4 ? It should have been 9-0
The dissent in Heller was laughable, riddled with premises and assertions that would be - and have been - discarded whenever convenient.
 
There isn't anything in the Constitution that even remotely says, "Here's your guns boys, now y'all make sure this doesn't become a tyranny, yah hear?"
Nothing.
Except Amendment II.

And it really doesn't matter much in any case. They would not be much use against the total might of the United States Armed Forces.
Right - irregulars armed with small-arms could never hope to defeat the US military.
Except in Iraq and Afghanistan, of course.


Still waiting for you to cite the Article Section and Clause of the US Constitutionn that prohibits secession, pursuant to your claim of such.

The second amendment refers to a collective right to form militias. It's been wildly misinterpreted.

And I've posted the clauses numerous times in this very thread. Being obtuse doesn't win arguments.
 
Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.

But the sad thing about the ruling of US v Heller it was 5-4 just one more justice going the opposite way.... 5-4 ? It should have been 9-0

The fact that so many key rulings are split like that, is testament to the fact that the Court, not being accountable to anything more than itself, leaving us no recourse for petition beyond it, is a mis-characterization of it's role.

And in the words of Jefferson being the 'Most despotic branch' with the pretense that they are selective in what part of the Constitution that they defend.
 
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Good news... The right to arms is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right of the individual, rooted in and necessitated by the right to self-defense.
US v Heller.

But the sad thing about the ruling of US v Heller it was 5-4 just one more justice going the opposite way.... 5-4 ? It should have been 9-0

The fact that so many key rulings are split like that, is testament to the fact that the Court, not being accountable to anything more than itself, leaving us no recourse for petition beyond it, is a mis-characterization of it's role.

What will happen with the next appointment? that ruling even though the ruling was in favor of right for all citizens to keep firearms, how long do you think they will have to rule again on this issue, and how do you think it will be ruled on? That wasn't a victory in my opinion.
 
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