Zone1 Our Fine-Tuned Universe: Accident or Intelligent Design?

[forkup]

didn't misapply statistics. You misapplied logic.

Dude I just gave you the calculation. Either point out the flaw or just concede. You are really starting to flail with your assertions.

 

[forkup]

forkup weren't you the guy I debated a couple of years ago on relative morality? If I recall, you argued that morals were relative to the times and I argued morals were basically standards and standards exist for logical reasons.

Because I think it was within the last year you had changed your argument to mine. Am I recalling this correctly? Or was it maybe someone else?

Nope that was me. You even asked me about it some time ago because you noted I changed my position. Something I readily conceded. Doesn't have anything to do with this.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Of course there is no personal designer .
That was just a way of explaining complexity to Sheeple to keep them controlled and happy .
Consciousness is all pervasive .

BUT you might well ask how Consciousness became self aware .
AND what was the source/ mechanics of the urge that made Consciousness want to Create .

Now it gets interesting .
Or , as believers in outmoded Universe physics might say ,
What happened before Big Bang and what caused it ?

luiza:

Anything that is precise requires a designer. Until you give a logical explanation for how the natural elements on the Periodic Table are so precise that they are referred to as Periodic Law, I will have to dismiss your above response as nothing more than the usual Atheist Religion theology.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

In this, the church age, God calls people into the church. The call is irresistible.

Woodznutz:

Then why are the Atheist Religionists in this thread claiming that precision happened by itself?


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Precision does not require deliberation, it can arise from natural laws. Snowflakes, crystal structures, and planetary orbits exhibit precise patterns without an intelligent designer. The elements on the Periodic Table follow fundamental physical principles, not conscious planning.

The elements on the Periodic Table are formed through stellar nucleosynthesis, the process by which stars fuse lighter atoms into heavier ones. Elements like hydrogen and helium emerged from the Big Bang, while heavier elements are created within stars and distributed by supernovae. No conscious planning is needed—just natural physical laws."

In fact, the processes are so well understood that for instance, plutonium is primarily human-made, produced through neutron bombardment in reactors, but trace amounts can form naturally through radioactive decay processes. Its existence further proves that chemical elements arise from known physical mechanisms rather than intelligent design. Nor is this the only example of artificial elements there are a whole slew.

forkup:

Natural laws = Almighty God Jehovah set those laws in place.


Alter2Ego

 

[ding]

So if I admit that some people like to howl at the moon and pretend their werewolf's that means the nature of humans is to howl at the moon and pretend their werewolf's. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Hasty Generalization Fallacy | Definition & Examples This is what I mean about your epistemology. And since I don't think you're an idiot that means you are just blatantly dishonest.

Are you going to answer my question about statistics?

I'm questioning your logic and integrity. You know as well as I know that logically it takes a certain amount of intelligence to create intelligent things. And if you look around, that's exactly what you see. How does your statistical argument negate all of the smart things humans have built? You are misusing statistics and you are misusing logic. So that's me answering your question.

 

[forkup]

forkup:

Natural laws = Almighty God Jehovah set those laws in place.


Alter2Ego

Another assertion. Without even attempting to explain the reasoning behind it. You asked about elements. I gave the answer.

This really is pretty basic stuff and doesn't require Jehovah to be explained. Science uses the knowledge all the time to make accurate predictions.

 

[ding]

Dude I just gave you the calculation. Either point out the flaw or just concede. You are really starting to flail with your assertions.

So you believe you have statistically proven that it is not the nature of intelligence to create intelligence?

I need to go for a ride in my self driving car and think about that.

 

[ding]

Nope that was me. You even asked me about it some time ago because you noted I changed my position. Something I readily conceded. Doesn't have anything to do with this.

And when I asked you why you changed what did you tell me?

 

[ding]

Another assertion. Without even attempting to explain the reasoning behind it. You asked about elements. I gave the answer.

This really is pretty basic stuff and doesn't require Jehovah to be explained. Science uses the knowledge all the time to make accurate predictions.

This is going to be more your speed.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The elements on the Periodic Table are formed through stellar nucleosynthesis, the process by which stars fuse lighter atoms into heavier ones. Elements like hydrogen and helium emerged from the Big Bang, while heavier elements are created within stars and distributed by supernovae. No conscious planning is needed—just natural physical laws."

In fact, the processes are so well understood that for instance, plutonium is primarily human-made, produced through neutron bombardment in reactors, but trace amounts can form naturally through radioactive decay processes. Its existence further proves that chemical elements arise from known physical mechanisms rather than intelligent design. Nor is this the only example of artificial elements there are a whole slew.

forkup:

Telling the rest of us how the natural elements on the Periodic Table are formed hardly explains why they are so precise and so interrelated. Are you suggesting that their precision and interrelatedness resulted by accident? Inquiring minds want to know.

FYI: The "Big Bang" is nothing more than an unproven theory for which there is no supporting evidence in the scientific community.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Another assertion. Without even attempting to explain the reasoning behind it. You asked about elements. I gave the answer.

This really is pretty basic stuff and doesn't require Jehovah to be explained. Science uses the knowledge all the time to make accurate predictions.

forkup:

You didn't give an answer. You gave me Atheist Religion tripe, telling me what you choose to believe without even a morsel of evidence to support your claims.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

whether one or more likely many heavenly engineers who created the elements and latter life ... what happened to them if they did exist and what need is there for secrecy and above all else would they ever be related to the madeup desert bibles is the most over rated claim of all times.

not desert dwellers rather certain others most likely will be the future heavenly beings remade from a past calamity to pickup the torch to carry on for whatever there may be to discover and hopefuly not become extinct as those in the past.

BreezeWood:

I don't have a clue what you're trying to say.


Alter2Ego

 

[forkup]

I'm questioning your logic and integrity. You know as well as I know that logically it takes a certain amount of intelligence to create intelligent things. And if you look around, that's exactly what you see. How does your statistical argument negate all of the smart things humans have built? You are misusing statistics and you are misusing logic. So that's me answering your question.

I'm questioning your logic and integrity. You know as well as I know that logically it takes a certain amount of intelligence to create intelligent things.

First of all. Unlike you I can show to have conceded positions when I thought I'm wrong. Even to you personally. So, you have no reason I can see to doubt my integrity. On the other hand. I have plenty of reason to doubt yours considering the amount of deflections, logical fallacies and outright refusals to answer to most basic questions I've seen. For instance.

You claim intelligence must create intelligence, but evolution itself contradicts that—human intelligence arose from non-intelligent life over time. If intelligence were necessary for intelligence to exist, we wouldn’t be here. And you are begging the question here another fallacy. I don't know intelligence is needed to create intelligence. In fact, human evolution seems to counter it.

How does your statistical argument negate all of the smart things humans have built?

Humans created only one thing that is considered intelligent so far AI. All the rest are simply functional.

You are misusing statistics and you are misusing logic.

Feel free to debunk the calculation. I have asked you once already.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Why not both? OTOH, it took intelligent design to create the circumstances, process, and possibility of the universe assembling as it has, but it also took a little accident that every better choice was naturally selected along the way simply because they succeeded more often than less good choices.

toobfreak:
Below is the definition of accident. Focus on the words in red, and then come back and explain to the rest of us how accidents could possibly result in precision.

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)


Alter2Ego

 

[forkup]

So you believe you have statistically proven that it is not the nature of intelligence to create intelligence?

I need to go for a ride in my self driving car and think about that.

I have proven that your assertion that it's statically likely based on humans is faulty. Something you keep on sidestepping. Point out the flaw in the calculation. It's mathematical you're an engineer should be a breeze.

 

[forkup]

forkup:

You didn't give an answer. You gave me Atheist Religion tripe, telling me what you choose to believe without even a morsel of evidence to support your claims.


Alter2Ego

I see. You don't think fusion exist in suns, or elemental decay, radiometric dating, the fossil record, etc. etc.

 

[0311]

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?


2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?


3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?[/color]

I believe in the Big Bang. There is not now, nor has there ever been a Magical, Mystical, Mythical Skyman, just brain dead fool stupid in something is NOT real.

 

[ding]

First of all. Unlike you I can show to have conceded positions when I thought I'm wrong. Even to you personally. So, you have no reason I can see to doubt my integrity. On the other hand. I have plenty of reason to doubt yours considering the amount of deflections, logical fallacies and outright refusals to answer to most basic questions I've seen. For instance.

You claim intelligence must create intelligence, but evolution itself contradicts that—human intelligence arose from non-intelligent life over time. If intelligence were necessary for intelligence to exist, we wouldn’t be here. And you are begging the question here another fallacy. I don't know intelligence is needed to create intelligence. In fact, human evolution seems to counter it.

First of all, you never conceded anything to me. You told me someone you trusted convinced you but what you were writing were my arguments. So you lied. In a year or two, I fully expect to see you making the arguments I've made today like they were your own. And when asked about it, you'll probably lie about that too.

You keep making irrelevant arguments. You see it as intelligence coming from non-intelligence but everything came from intelligence. That's my argument. But for the sake of argument, it doesn't matter because the only thing that matters is that we know first hand that it is human nature to make smart things. You are an idiot for arguing otherwise.

 

[Crepitus]

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world.

Lol, no.