Orthodox Jew in Israel Explains Why a President Ron Paul Would Be Good For Israel

[Paulie]

http://www.ultimateronpaul.com/spotlight-news-top-story/

(snipped)

The second complaint is that a Paul administration would be bad for Israel. The number of statements Dr. Paul has made in support of Israel, way before he even considered his current candidacy really strains the credibility of the claim. There are a number of issues here.

First, aid to Israel. It has been obvious for a long time that Israel does not need this aid. Israel's GDP per capita is at European levels and rising. The aid itself is a form of corporate welfare in that it must be spent in America. It comes with many strings attached.

It allows the government to avoid sorely needed economic reforms.

Along with the aid Israel receives, potential or actual enemies receive several times more. That aid doesn't just allow the recipient nations to avoid reforms, it actually props them up and allows them to continue to maintain a bellicose stance against Israel (this certainly includes Egypt, with whom Israel has a peace treaty in place).

When the entire world condemned Israel, including President Reagan on down in America, Dr. Paul supported Israel's right to act in its own self-interest (and preemptively, I might add) in its bombing of the Osirak reactor in Iraq. He had absolutely nothing to gain by taking this position, and nothing to lose by following the herd in its condemnation of Israel.

America has imposed its will on Israel for decades. President Eisenhower forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai after the 1956 war turning a military victory into a political defeat. According to Wikipedia, in 1973, the American Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger directly ordered Golda Meir, the Prime Minister of Israel to not strike Egypt and Syria preemptively, despite growing evidence that they planned an attack. Had Israel struck first, it would not have received "so much as a nail" in arms, a serious threat. The first President Bush famously, and insultingly, through his proxy, Secretary of State James Baker, told Premier Shamir to call the public White House phone line when he was serious about peace. In the aftermath of the first Gulf War, America most decidedly imposed its will on Israel by forcing it to participate in the Madrid conference. It influenced the outcome of the Israeli elections by turning down the request for loan guarantees (in principle the loan guarantees are unconstitutional, but Bush declined to reject the request on such lofty terms; it was rank interference in Israel's internal affairs that drove the decision). In the run-up to the 1996 election between Shimon Peres and Binyamin Netanyahu, President Clinton overtly favored Peres. Clinton also imposed heavily on Netanyahu during the Wye Plantation negotiations. When the government fell as a result, he overtly favored Ehud Barak and even sent in his campaign team, including James Carville, to help. After the second Intifada started in 2000, first Bush, and then Clinton, imposed heavily on Israel to restrain its response until the casualties became so overwhelming that the Israeli government finally had no choice but to respond. Even then, America prevented Israel from achieving an overwhelming victory.

However, the American relationship with Israel is more dangerous than most people even understand. It wasn't Clinton, however, who initiated or imposed the Oslo process or Camp David negotiations on Israel. And the current Bush president, despite his many faults, has maintained a relatively hands-off stance regarding Israeli action. What should be a concern is not what a President Paul might do, but what an Israeli government does do now. Since Oslo, governments of Israel, left and right, have adopted dangerous and even suicidal policies detrimental to the security and survival of the state. The government then drafts America, often reluctantly, into supporting these policies, and imposes them on an unwilling public, claiming that if something goes wrong, America will protect Israel.

Read in it's entirety at the link.

 

[Paulie]

No comment Kathianne? You LOVE discussing Ron Paul. I thought this would be of some interest to at least YOU.

 

[Paulie]

Come on Kath, you're gonna leave me hanging on this?

Oh, and thanks by the way. You know what I mean.

 

[Annie]

No comment Kathianne? You LOVE discussing Ron Paul. I thought this would be of some interest to at least YOU.

Actually doesn't surprise me at all, one has no problems finding a 'jew' that thinks that Israel should not be in the Middle East, while living in Israel. Go figure.

As you've shown, there are plenty of anecdotal stories, pictures, etc., to 'prove' your points, problem comes with the totality of the evidence. Do you really want to get me started again?

BTW, you're welcome and it was justified.

 

[eots]

Actually doesn't surprise me at all, one has no problems finding a 'jew' that thinks that Israel should not be in the Middle East, while living in Israel. Go figure.

As you've shown, there are plenty of anecdotal stories, pictures, etc., to 'prove' your points, problem comes with the totality of the evidence. Do you really want to get me started again?

BTW, you're welcome and it was justified.

ya those treacherous "Jews" huh kat...go figure

 

[jillian]

Actually doesn't surprise me at all, one has no problems finding a 'jew' that thinks that Israel should not be in the Middle East, while living in Israel. Go figure.

As you've shown, there are plenty of anecdotal stories, pictures, etc., to 'prove' your points, problem comes with the totality of the evidence. Do you really want to get me started again?

BTW, you're welcome and it was justified.

All true. But also, there are many orthodox jews who don't believe Israel is supposed to exist until the coming of the messiah and rebuilding of the temple. So preservation of Israel isn't really an issue for them.

You know, it's the whole G-d will provide thing.

 

[Annie]

All true. But also, there are many orthodox jews who don't believe Israel is supposed to exist until the coming of the messiah and rebuilding of the temple. So preservation of Israel isn't really an issue for them.

You know, it's the whole G-d will provide thing.

As someone I know has said, 'save me from the orthodox' of any religion.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

Imagine the amount of revenue the US could get in soap deals if Orthodox jews took baths.

 

[ronpaul2008]

It has been pointed out to me that Dr. Paul is lacking form. This is probably true. He may not be the most physically attractive candidate, but he has substantive ideas and has kept his soul intact. Americans in particular seem to be attracted to form over substance. Perhaps this is why seventy percent of us can be against the war in Iraq, yet ninety percent of us, Democrats and Republicans, have so far in the primaries voted for candidates that support wars of aggression. They are not looking at what their candidates stand for, what they have voted for. They are simply voting for the candidate that looks the best, or smiles the nicest, or makes the best sounding promises. Ron Paul is the only candidate with any substance, and there are many in nations around the world that realize this even if most Americans don´t.

It is particularily troubling that Americans are more impressed with a fluff speech that has no substance, like Obamas 'hope and change' speeches then one that outlines policy changes, gives facts, analyzes the benefits, etc. I think this problem stems from the size of government itself. We are increasingly being told what to think by the government. From education systems that direct us until well into our 20's to news programs that recite what the branches of the government release to more subtle techniques like funding specific research or helping various entities. How can we expect the citizens to police a government that has so much control over the peoples thoughts? If Ron Paul says we should be on the gold standard still very few Americans know what he's talking about or are even aware of a debate like this regarding money. The government is deliberetly not teaching this to Americans, and instead teaching fluff. With taxes so high most Americans don't have the time to research these things on their own so they respond more to elements they do understand such as looks, charisma, nice sounding promises.

 

[William Joyce]

I remember in Brooklyn watching this cable access show with this flannel-shirt-and-baseball-hat-wearing Ultra Zionist. He would always say, "The neo-Nazis are right. The U.S. shouldn't fund Israel. That would force it to stand up for itself and all the soft Jews to get tough." I always thought that was kind of admirable. Like Ron Paul I have zero problem with Israel wanting to survive. I have a major problem with it being funded by my work.

 

[Paulie]

I remember in Brooklyn watching this cable access show with this flannel-shirt-and-baseball-hat-wearing Ultra Zionist. He would always say, "The neo-Nazis are right. The U.S. shouldn't fund Israel. That would force it to stand up for itself and all the soft Jews to get tough." I always thought that was kind of admirable. Like Ron Paul I have zero problem with Israel wanting to survive. I have a major problem with it being funded by my work.

How is Israel supposed to survive by itself, when they're surrounded by countries who hate them?

How is all the military might they have, supposed to combat all the sticks, stones, occasional bomb belts, and short range rockets of their neighbors?

If America just invades those countries and removes those threats FOR them, they can all live in peace and sleep well at night.

Well, either that, or we can just FUND those countries instead.

 

[jillian]

How is Israel supposed to survive by itself, when they're surrounded by countries who hate them?

How is all the military might they have, supposed to combat all the sticks, stones, occasional bomb belts, and short range rockets of their neighbors?

If America just invades those countries and removes those threats FOR them, they can all live in peace and sleep well at night.

Well, either that, or we can just FUND those countries instead.

And now you know why I have issues with Ron Paul.. he has this wonderful knack for bringing together white supremacists and israel haters. Wonder why that is....

 

[Paulie]

And now you know why I have issues with Ron Paul.. he has this wonderful knack for bringing together white supremacists and israel haters. Wonder why that is....

Um, white supremecists and "israel haters" are one and the same.

I'm neither.

I just don't like the idea that the country that I was born and raised in, America, is going bankrupt trying to protect Israel from countries that they are perfectly capable of militarily protecting THEMSELF from.

I also don't like the idea that while we protect them from their neighbors, we simultaneously FUND those neighbors. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

We fight for Israel, we give US citizens' tax dollars to Israel, and meanwhile we're over HERE going BANKRUPT.

That's not Israel's fault, it's OURS. We can't afford that crap anymore.

It's pretty narrow minded to think that someone who feels that way is anti-semitic. That's a cop-out at best.

Didn't the jews there think at all about what would happen if they established their own country over there, right smack dab in the middle of muslim central?

They didn't expect there to be some kind of backlash from the muslims? Why can't you share Jerusalem?

 

[onedomino]

How is all the military might they have, supposed to combat all the sticks, stones, occasional bomb belts, and short range rockets of their neighbors?

I assume this was facetious. Do you really need an explanation concerning why Israel needed and still needs help defending itself against the Arabs and other Muslims? Or do you just not care? Do you think that the Arabs and others would try to overwhelm Israel if America was not guaranteeing its existence? Of course they would. But you are a Ron Paul immoralist. You want to be an "armed neutral," as you put it. You want to stand by and watch. Pick a side Paulitics: democracy or homicide bombers. But it's not our fight and you do not want to choose between those defending themselves and those blowing themselves up in the middle of non-combatants. You want to be neutral in a conflict like that? Maybe you an isolationists like Paul can find a place to hide.

 

[Paulie]

I assume this was facetious. Do you really need an explanation concerning why Israel needed and still needs help defending itself against the Arabs and other Muslims? Or do you just not care? Do you think that the Arabs and others would try to overwhelm Israel if America was not guaranteeing its existence? Of course they would. But you are a Ron Paul immoralist. You want to be an "armed neutral," as you put it. You want to stand by and watch. Pick a side Paulitics: democracy or homicide bombers. But it's not our fight and you do not want to choose between those defending themselves and those blowing themselves up in the middle of non-combatants. You want to be neutral in a conflict like that? Maybe you an isolationists like Paul can find a place to hide.

Why don't you tall me how in the fucking world we're supposed to even find the money to AFFORD that.

Keep printing it? Keep borrowing it?

Because it's plainly obvious that Washington isn't doing a GOD DAMN thing to bring our OWN ass out of the gutter financially. But you want to continue letting this country, the one YOU live in, go downhill economically so that we can protect ANOTHER one.

Where's the money coming from, onedomino? Huh? Where the fuck is it coming from?

 

[jillian]

And now you know why I have issues with Ron Paul.. he has this wonderful knack for bringing together white supremacists and israel haters. Wonder why that is....

Um, white supremecists and "israel haters" are one and the same.

No they aren't.

I'm neither.

Might be, but you support policies that would result in its destruction.

I just don't like the idea that the country that I was born and raised in, America, is going bankrupt trying to protect Israel from countries that they are perfectly capable of militarily protecting THEMSELF from.

The only thing we "protect" Israel from are folks who think Israel's supposed to take missile strikes without retaliating.

I also don't like the idea that while we protect them from their neighbors, we simultaneously FUND those neighbors. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is that we don't get off of foreign oil, which puts money directly into the hands of terrorists.

We fight for Israel, we give US citizens' tax dollars to Israel, and meanwhile we're over HERE going BANKRUPT.

We've NEVER fought for Israel. That's a lie. Are you complaining that we give our tax dollars to palestinians? No? Didn't think so.

That's not Israel's fault, it's OURS. We can't afford that crap anymore.

What we can't afford are wars of choice like Iraq and staying on mid-east oil, and letting china own our debt because of it.

It's pretty narrow minded to think that someone who feels that way is anti-semitic. That's a cop-out at best.

I said white supremacists (like WJ) and Israel haters... I never used the word anti-semite. So don't put those words in my mouth.

Didn't the jews there think at all about what would happen if they established their own country over there, right smack dab in the middle of muslim central?

That country was set up by the international community... the arabs could have stayed. They didn't. They lost. Tough.

They didn't expect there to be some kind of backlash from the muslims? Why can't you share Jerusalem?

They left... then attacked. I figure that's the way the world works. Me? I want my family land in Belarus... what do you mean? I can't have that? Gee... should I go there with bombs and missiles.

But nah... no double standard for Israel.

And why on earth would they "share" land they won in defensive battle with people who only want Israel's destruction?

That would be the stupidest thing ever. Don't you think?

Or do you want to share your home with people who want to blow you up?

 

[onedomino]

Why don't you tall me how in the fucking world we're supposed to even find the money to AFFORD that.

Keep printing it? Keep borrowing it?

Because it's plainly obvious that Washington isn't doing a GOD DAMN thing to bring our OWN ass out of the gutter financially. But you want to continue letting this country, the one YOU live in, go downhill economically so that we can protect ANOTHER one.

Where's the money coming from, onedomino? Huh? Where the fuck is it coming from?

$3 billion a year to Israel? $3 billion a year to help protect the only democracy in the Middle East? Chicken feed. The price of about ten days in Iraq. Or about 30 minutes of Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlement programs in the US. Literally. Joyce hides behind his complaint that tax dollars help Israel. But that is a pathetic smokescreen for the fact that he is a selfish, immoral racist. Do you think that racists and isolationists flock to the Paul banner for no reason? Pick a side Paulitics. No country with a moral foundation worth anything, worth the paper history is written on, can just stand by and watch.

 

[Paulie]

$3 billion a year to Israel? $3 billion a year to help protect the only democracy in the Middle East?

And If we can't protect one, we'll just CREATE one.

It's not just Israel onedomino. And it's not just the direct financial aid the we give to them. How much money goes out to ALL nations? You got that figure handy, too?

I'm not picking on just Israel. Paul's policy is stop funding EVERYONE the way we do. If you were more educated on him, you'd already understand that he wouldn't cut aid to everyone forever. Right now though, while we're so deeply sinking financially, and borrowing and printing to fund everyone, we need to stop and get ourselves out of this problem.

You keep calling him an isolationist as if it's your own perverted form of prejudice. No one ever backs that label up with anything to prove it.

Not spreading our military throughout the world, spending damn near 1 trillion dollars a year doing so, is not isolationism...it's practical common sense.

Not to someone like you though, who thinks that much money is going to stop that one crazy lunatic who wants to blow up a shopping mall.

You can spend all the money in the world, and go completely bankrupt doing so, and it's not going to stop the ideology of hatred.

How nationally secure would we be if the economy finally lost it's ass and we went into a depression? How would all that spending have helped us THEN?

 

[mattskramer]

Actually doesn't surprise me at all, one has no problems finding a 'jew' that thinks that Israel should not be in the Middle East, while living in Israel. Go figure.

As you've shown, there are plenty of anecdotal stories, pictures, etc., to 'prove' your points, problem comes with the totality of the evidence. Do you really want to get me started again?

BTW, you're welcome and it was justified.

Right on! Though case studies make for good reading, they do not make good statistical research. A sample size of 1 does not make a good representative sample from which to draw a conclusion.

 

[William Joyce]

I just don't like the idea that the country that I was born and raised in, America, is going bankrupt trying to protect Israel from countries that they are perfectly capable of militarily protecting THEMSELF from.

I also don't like the idea that while we protect them from their neighbors, we simultaneously FUND those neighbors. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

We fight for Israel, we give US citizens' tax dollars to Israel, and meanwhile we're over HERE going BANKRUPT.

That's not Israel's fault, it's OURS. We can't afford that crap anymore.

It's pretty narrow minded to think that someone who feels that way is anti-semitic.

Deal with Jewish responses to this perfectly reasonable position long enough, and it'll turn you into an anti-Semite!