Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Chuckt]

Ah Chuckt, so will you now say that Norman Geisler teaches error and hurts people and is not to be listened to because he disagrees with Fuller?

That would be rather fickle on your part would it not but it would at least be consistent?

Tricky stuff this logic and reason stuff.

Some AV1611 (which I am not) people think Geisler boxed himself into a corner but respect him as a defender of the faith.

Ah well. I guess it is too much to ask for you to cut me that much slack. But I do respect you as a defender of the faith even if I can't agree with you on your every interpretation of scripture. Most especially when you keep moving the goal posts. But then I don't think it necessary that we all have to agree on every interpretation of the scripture even to be right, much less orthodox.

I will go with the four manuscript theory that if Mark 16 wasn't in the Bible then it wouldn't have shown up in the other manuscript families because no one person or group controlled all of the manuscripts because they were in four different geographic areas. Therefore, Mark 16 is in the Bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

Some AV1611 (which I am not) people think Geisler boxed himself into a corner but respect him as a defender of the faith.

Ah well. I guess it is too much to ask for you to cut me that much slack. But I do respect you as a defender of the faith even if I can't agree with you on your every interpretation of scripture. Most especially when you keep moving the goal posts. But then I don't think it necessary that we all have to agree on every interpretation of the scripture even to be right, much less orthodox.

I will go with the four manuscript theory that if Mark 16 wasn't in the Bible then it wouldn't have shown up in the other manuscript families because no one person or group controlled all of the manuscripts because they were in four different geographic areas. Therefore, Mark 16 is in the Bible.

It is as good a theory as any, but so is the theory held by Geisler and most other theological scholars that the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were added specifically because they were NOT in the original manuscript. And the original manuscript just seemed so incomplete without them. It ended with Jesus dying and the disciples all running away. Not a satisfying ending at all. Most especially when Matthew and Luke did include the resurrection in their narratives. So somebody felt obliged to add the rest of the story--the burial and the resurrection that completed the narrative--in Mark.

Given the evidence we have, as expressed by Geisler et al, that the verses were not present in the earliest manuscripts being circulated in the churches, I don't find it the least bit disturbing or sinister to accept that as the probable truth. For me it is reassuring to know that there are honest, sincere, and brave theologians out there who are willing to tell the truth instead of just sticking to the more questionable version because it is comfortable or because they will be declared heretics if they wander off the 'orthodox' plantation.

 

[Avatar4321]

No. No. No. There is no other God.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:24-26)

The Father has made us after His image. He has endowed us with the ability to choose between good and evil. When we see Him we will see Him as He is and we will be like Him.

When God says we are the children of God. He means it. And what do children grow up to be?

Not exalted men. Not Gods.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

So Jesus is lying when He quoted scriptures saying that those who recieve the Word are gods?

Personally, Im not really going to make the claim that Jesus is wrong.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Father has made us after His image. He has endowed us with the ability to choose between good and evil. When we see Him we will see Him as He is and we will be like Him.

When God says we are the children of God. He means it. And what do children grow up to be?

Not exalted men. Not Gods.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

So Jesus is lying when He quoted scriptures saying that those who recieve the Word are gods?

Personally, Im not really going to make the claim that Jesus is wrong.

Ah, but what is the literal interpretation of the scripture he quoted? Though I disagree with Chuckt on many interpretations of Scripture, I believe God loves Chuckt and honors his faith. And while I agree with you on many of your interpretations of Scripture, I believe God loves you and honors your faith even though I can't agree with your interpretation on this one.

Chuckt makes the better argument here as the Bible is full of admonitions that we are to worship God and not seek to be one. The original sin in the Garden was an attempt by Adam to be as God. Not the same thing you say? You can easily make that argument, but you can't really use Jesus's words to do it.

In John 10:34, Jesus was referring to Psalm 82:6: "I say, you are gods, sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." In rabbinic circles, this passage was understood as an attack on unjust judges, who, though they have been given the title "gods" because of their quasi-divine function of exercising judgment, they will die just like other men. In other words 'gods' was their exalted earthly status, not a verdict of what they would be.

So returning to John 34, in its full context, Jesus was making the argument to his accusers that if it was an Old Testament practice to refer to men like the judges as 'gods' and that was not blasphemy, then why do his accusers object when the term is applied to Jesus?

Okay, that's my best argument. In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter which of us is right. For those of us who know we are forgiven and assured of eternal life, we can only imagine what the next phase of life will be after our earthly life here is ended, but we can expect it to be pretty wonderful.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Very informative posts Avatar and Foxfyre. Very useful final analysis.

My Dad was at a Bible study and one guy was talking crap about Art Rooney. Art was a good man who smoked cigars and had a lot of money, and went to the Catholic church in his old neighborhood every day.
Art had just died and the guy was condeming Art to hell for his Catholicism.
My Dad stood up and said, when Art died, God met him at the gate and said, " Set your rosary and cigar down Son and come on in, your coronation is about to begin, I'm so glad you're here. I love you so much!".
God saw us on the cross and His beloved Son when we show up, covered in the blood of the Lamb and white as snow. We look like His other child, His heir, His Son walking through that gate boldly.

We all have ideas and opinions about what we learn in the Bible and as committed and diligent as we all are in yearning for the truth, we are all going to miss it a time or two. We should be able to agree on the basics though. Christ died that we may live.

I may have missed the boat twice just reading the 2 previous posts. I'm not sure, and I invite objective criticism. It's a good learning tool.
"When we see Him, we will be like Him" I think that was in reference to Jesus, not God. Even though they are one, they possess different qualities. Jesus has a mortal body and will always have it. One of the ways we are going to be like Him is physically, and in the prime physical condition (+ glorified), of a human being 33 year old forever on.

And that ties into what I think I know anyway, about our future. The future God laid out for his children from the Biblical perspective:
We escape His wrath by the rapture.
We see Him/Jesus and we are transformed to function in multi dimensions. We will be at 100% capacity physically, emotionally and mentally.
We prepare for an eminent return to earth with Christ, on white horses, <(yay thanks Lord!) to end the battle at the Mountain of Meggido.
We will watch Isaac and Ishmael weep for joy at one another.
We will take our places in the various lands that Christ parcels out to the Nations at the Judgement of Nations as members of the Royal family, and preform our duties in the Service of the Lord.
We will enter and exit dimensions and Heaven, as easily as a thought.
We will help Jesus restore the earth and it's inhabitants for 1,000 years.
We will stand behind Christ at the White Throne Judgment.
We will watch as the dimension that surrounds Heaven rolls up and Heaven descends to earth.
We will help as Jesus Christ the Lord ushers in Peace on Earth and good will toward men.
I think those are the next Biblical phases/ages, but I may be wrong.

 

[Foxfyre]

Very informative posts Avatar and Foxfyre. Very useful final analysis.

My Dad was at a Bible study and one guy was talking crap about Art Rooney. Art was a good man who smoked cigars and had a lot of money, and went to the Catholic church in his old neighborhood every day.
Art had just died and the guy was condeming Art to hell for his Catholicism.
My Dad stood up and said, when Art died, God met him at the gate and said, " Set your rosary and cigar down Son and come on in, your coronation is about to begin, I'm so glad you're here. I love you so much!".
God saw us on the cross and His beloved Son when we show up, covered in the blood of the Lamb and white as snow. We look like His other child, His heir, His Son walking through that gate boldly.

We all have ideas and opinions about what we learn in the Bible and as committed and diligent as we all are in yearning for the truth, we are all going to miss it a time or two. We should be able to agree on the basics though. Christ died that we may live.

I may have missed the boat twice just reading the 2 previous posts. I'm not sure, and I invite objective criticism. It's a good learning tool.
"When we see Him, we will be like Him" I think that was in reference to Jesus, not God. Even though they are one, they possess different qualities. Jesus has a mortal body and will always have it. One of the ways we are going to be like Him is physically, and in the prime physical condition (+ glorified), of a human being 33 year old forever on.

And that ties into what I think I know anyway, about our future. The future God laid out for his children from the Biblical perspective:
We escape His wrath by the rapture.
We see Him/Jesus and we are transformed to function in multi dimensions. We will be at 100% capacity physically, emotionally and mentally.
We prepare for an eminent return to earth with Christ, on white horses, <(yay thanks Lord!) to end the battle at the Mountain of Meggido.
We will watch Isaac and Ishmael weep for joy at one another.
We will take our places in the various lands that Christ parcels out to the Nations at the Judgement of Nations as members of the Royal family, and preform our duties in the Service of the Lord.
We will enter and exit dimensions and Heaven, as easily as a thought.
We will help Jesus restore the earth and it's inhabitants for 1,000 years.
We will stand behind Christ at the White Throne Judgment.
We will watch as the dimension that surrounds Heaven rolls up and Heaven descends to earth.
We will help as Jesus Christ the Lord ushers in Peace on Earth and good will toward men.
I think those are the next Biblical phases/ages, but I may be wrong.

Beautifully stated IR. You of course brought up one of the other debates that has been raging in the Church for millenia and that is the concepts of pre-millenial, post-millenial, and other-millenial theories concerning the end times. A fascinating topic and great fun to analyze, theorize, and speculate on and yes, ANY of us could be wrong re whatever theory we land on. I don't pretend to know which one is the right one, but I am confident that Jesus has something pretty amazing planned for those last days and we have a glimpse of it all in the scriptures plus we all have assurance that we will survive it if it happens in our lifetime.

I have not a doubt in the world that when I finally ask all those unanswerable questions on my list, I am going to be really surprised at some of the answers. And I bet that once we are ushered into heaven and no longer look through a glass darkly, we're all going to have a good laugh at how much we got wrong in our theories and beliefs about a lot of things now.

But meanwhile I never get tired of exploring it all, and I am grateful to know that the Lord and a few others of you are keeping me company on the journey.

 

[Chuckt]

Ah well. I guess it is too much to ask for you to cut me that much slack. But I do respect you as a defender of the faith even if I can't agree with you on your every interpretation of scripture. Most especially when you keep moving the goal posts. But then I don't think it necessary that we all have to agree on every interpretation of the scripture even to be right, much less orthodox.

I will go with the four manuscript theory that if Mark 16 wasn't in the Bible then it wouldn't have shown up in the other manuscript families because no one person or group controlled all of the manuscripts because they were in four different geographic areas. Therefore, Mark 16 is in the Bible.

It is as good a theory as any, but so is the theory held by Geisler and most other theological scholars that the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were added specifically because they were NOT in the original manuscript. And the original manuscript just seemed so incomplete without them. It ended with Jesus dying and the disciples all running away. Not a satisfying ending at all. Most especially when Matthew and Luke did include the resurrection in their narratives. So somebody felt obliged to add the rest of the story--the burial and the resurrection that completed the narrative--in Mark.

Given the evidence we have, as expressed by Geisler et al, that the verses were not present in the earliest manuscripts being circulated in the churches, I don't find it the least bit disturbing or sinister to accept that as the probable truth. For me it is reassuring to know that there are honest, sincere, and brave theologians out there who are willing to tell the truth instead of just sticking to the more questionable version because it is comfortable or because they will be declared heretics if they wander off the 'orthodox' plantation.

I believe you are relying on faulty evidence and much of it can be attributed to Bruce Metzger since they keep quoting the erroneous parts.

MarkOne
MarkTwo
MarkThree

Other information:
The Text of the Gospels
The Text of the Gospels: The ESV Study Bible and Mark 16:9-20

 

[Chuckt]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzJVTDi7SGs]Mark 16:9-20 - (Part 1) Some Patristic Evidence - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Foxfyre]

I think Geisler et al's evidence is as good as a guy on You Tube. But since in the grand scheme of things, it does not MATTER whether it was part of the original manuscript or added at a later time. It does not teach heresy. It does not attack the Christian faith. Either way it is harmless. I honestly don't think God cares one whit how we view the origin of the verses. He is far more interested in our relationship with him and each other.

 

[Chuckt]

I think Geisler et al's evidence is as good as a guy on You Tube. But since in the grand scheme of things, it does not MATTER whether it was part of the original manuscript or added at a later time. It does not teach heresy. It does not attack the Christian faith. Either way it is harmless. I honestly don't think God cares one whit how we view the origin of the verses. He is far more interested in our relationship with him and each other.

I disagree.

Is vs.9-20 of Mark 16 the word of God or not? Wayne Grudem says if we are not sure about the content of scripture WE CANNOT BE CONFIDENT of the reformed view of sola scriptura.

https://bible.org/question/vs9-20-m...ys-if-we-are-not-sure-about-content-scripture

I've witnessed to enough people who have said that they can't trust the reliability of the Bible and when scholars are presenting faulty information, it is their fault for attacking the Bible.

Someone makes a mistake and then everyone quotes him. Get enough people to do it and you can't get a word in because you are drowned out by everyone else and it is called "poisoning the well" in logic because it is like a red herring.

I'd like to believe what my savior said.

 

[Foxfyre]

Welll I like to do what my Savior said too, and unfortunately he said not a single word about the origin of those last 12 verses of Mark 16. So we are left with our human understanding as to the origin of those verses. Again, to believe that they were added after the original manuscript was finalized is not the same thing as saying they are in error.

If it is important to you, Chuckt, that they were part of the original manuscript, I'm sure God doesn't care about that one way or the other and He is okay with you believing what you do. And I certainly don't care one way or the other as I don't think it matters and I'm sure God is okay with what I believe about it. For me it is a matter of curiosity and also a desire to understand historical accuracy and integrity of the scriptures. After looking at ALL the evidence, and not just that which is presented as dogma of a particular Church tradition, I have my opinions about those 12 verses. But I don't think that your or my opinion about those verses matters one whit to anybody's faith, salvation, or relationship with the living God.

One thing I am absolutely certain of: God doesn't want we Christians to quarrel over things like that.

 

[Chuckt]

Welll I like to do what my Savior said too, and unfortunately he said not a single word about the origin of those last 12 verses of Mark 16. So we are left with our human understanding as to the origin of those verses. Again, to believe that they were added after the original manuscript was finalized is not the same thing as saying they are in error.

If it is important to you, Chuckt, that they were part of the original manuscript, I'm sure God doesn't care about that one way or the other and He is okay with you believing what you do. And I certainly don't care one way or the other as I don't think it matters and I'm sure God is okay with what I believe about it. For me it is a matter of curiosity and also a desire to understand historical accuracy and integrity of the scriptures. After looking at ALL the evidence, and not just that which is presented as dogma of a particular Church tradition, I have my opinions about those 12 verses. But I don't think that your or my opinion about those verses matters one whit to anybody's faith, salvation, or relationship with the living God.

One thing I am absolutely certain of: God doesn't want we Christians to quarrel over things like that.

I think it shows the character of the higher critics. I get kicked off of Christian bulletin boards for trying to upright the truth and there are so many that I can't count.

I know a Christian from seminary and he basically said it can mean your job if you don't believe the right thing. The other thing is that publishing companies want to sell their books and this is to be considered because competition means you won't be welcomed.

Christian authors in the apologetic ministries only get paid to write what the public wants so this makes some of them hirelings and I have seen evidence of that when I look at what one Christian author wrote years ago and then I find he is not consistent with what he writes today because the man and women in the pew isn't demanding more truth.

It does matter if you take away part of Mark 16 and Revelation 22:19 is not just about Revelation and this concept is also found in different parts of the Bible:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

And we are going to be judged for every idle word.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Benjamin Franklin said we are going to be judged for silence:

“As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.”

Do you want to continue teaching? There is a greater condemnation (judgment).

James 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation (judgment).

 

[Chuckt]

I think Geisler et al's evidence is as good as a guy on You Tube. But since in the grand scheme of things, it does not MATTER whether it was part of the original manuscript or added at a later time. It does not teach heresy. It does not attack the Christian faith. Either way it is harmless. I honestly don't think God cares one whit how we view the origin of the verses. He is far more interested in our relationship with him and each other.

I still think God is going to judge us with a plumb line.

 

[Foxfyre]

Chuck, if you believe what Jesus said, we have already been judged and those who will accept that forgiveness have been forgiven our sins, even idle words now and then. Christianity is not supposed to be a faith of rules and regulations and discipline and punishment, but an experience of joy and confidence that the Lord loves us and is with us no matter what kind of crap we are having to endure here on Earth at the moment.

Does that mean we can speak untruth without consequence; that we can sin without consequence? Of course not. But sin is not breaking some rules or questioning some dogma that some people have set up to control Christians. Sin is that which harms us and/or others, either now or in the future. And if we love God we won't do that on purpose and we will try our best to hear and obey him so we won't do it by accident either.

Jesus' most harsh words were for those who condemned others for breaking some sort of rule or law but who did not bring forth the fruit of God's love and forgiveness themselves. In Luke 3, John the Baptist referred to such people as a 'brood of vipers'. In Matthew 12, Jesus referred to such people as a 'brood of vipers.'

Again I thnk God honors those who do their best to follow what God requires as best as they can or know how. But I think some in the Church way too often write their own rules about what people are supposed to believe about every word of the Bible - do this - don't do that - etc etc. etc. until it is has again imposed upon its flock a fearful, angry, judgmental, and unhappy kind of life bound by the Law rather than a joyful life set free by the Grace of God.

 

[Chuckt]

Chuck, if you believe what Jesus said, we have already been judged and those who will accept that forgiveness have been forgiven our sins, even idle words now and then. Christianity is not supposed to be a faith of rules and regulations and discipline and punishment, but an experience of joy and confidence that the Lord loves us and is with us no matter what kind of crap we are having to endure here on Earth at the moment.

We've been judged but the law of sowing and reaping has never been repealed or you would never die physically.

We haven't been given more than a down payment so far and our works will be judged as gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble and what you get back is your reward because God does judge our works.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1 Corinthians 3:12-13 KJV - Now if any man build upon this - Bible Gateway

And if God doesn't judge us then we are illegitimate.

Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

 

[Foxfyre]

Chuck, if you believe what Jesus said, we have already been judged and those who will accept that forgiveness have been forgiven our sins, even idle words now and then. Christianity is not supposed to be a faith of rules and regulations and discipline and punishment, but an experience of joy and confidence that the Lord loves us and is with us no matter what kind of crap we are having to endure here on Earth at the moment.

We've been judged but the law of sowing and reaping has never been repealed or you would never die physically.

We haven't been given more than a down payment so far and our works will be judged as gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble and what you get back is your reward because God does judge our works.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1 Corinthians 3:12-13 KJV - Now if any man build upon this - Bible Gateway

And if God doesn't judge us then we are illegitimate.

Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

Of course there are consequences for sin at any point in our lives. Both for us personally and/or for others and/or for future generations. Sin hurts us and/or others which is why it is bad and we aren't suppose to do it.

But if we could EARN our way to heaven, then there is no grace, no salvation in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. It is all a lie.

Ephesians 2: 8,9 &#8220;For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.&#8221;

Revelation 20:11 makes it clear that at the Great White Throne Judgment it will be the very works people have depended upon, rather than the work of Christ, to save them that will condemn them. It is the work of Christ only not our good works that saves.

At the same time Jesus taught the he is the vine and we are the branches. When he abides in us and we in him, we will do good works because we have been made his disciples to carry out his purposes here on Earth. But this is not by following rules but by his unearned and unmerited salvation while we were yet sinners; and by his grace he can do great things with us despite our imperfections.

 

[Chuckt]

Chuck, if you believe what Jesus said, we have already been judged and those who will accept that forgiveness have been forgiven our sins, even idle words now and then. Christianity is not supposed to be a faith of rules and regulations and discipline and punishment, but an experience of joy and confidence that the Lord loves us and is with us no matter what kind of crap we are having to endure here on Earth at the moment.

We've been judged but the law of sowing and reaping has never been repealed or you would never die physically.

We haven't been given more than a down payment so far and our works will be judged as gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble and what you get back is your reward because God does judge our works.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1 Corinthians 3:12-13 KJV - Now if any man build upon this - Bible Gateway

And if God doesn't judge us then we are illegitimate.

Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

Of course there are consequences for sin at any point in our lives. Both for us personally and/or for others and/or for future generations. Sin hurts us and/or others which is why it is bad and we aren't suppose to do it.

But if we could EARN our way to heaven, then there is no grace, no salvation in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. It is all a lie.

Ephesians 2: 8,9 “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Revelation 20:11 makes it clear that at the Great White Throne Judgment it will be the very works people have depended upon, rather than the work of Christ, to save them that will condemn them. It is the work of Christ only not our good works that saves.

At the same time Jesus taught the he is the vine and we are the branches. When he abides in us and we in him, we will do good works because we have been made his disciples to carry out his purposes here on Earth. But this is not by following rules but by his unearned and unmerited salvation while we were yet sinners; and by his grace he can do great things with us despite our imperfections.

That is not what I'm arguing.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Everyone has to give an account to God. If God has forgiven us then why do we have to give an account?

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Do you think He is going to forget?

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

If we're forgiven, why would you hate the garment spotted by the flesh? Why would they have spots if they were forgiven?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Why would they have to give an account with grief?

I was tearing on the way home. Do you know why? I have friends who are going to hell. I have neighbors who I know who died. They are on my conscience. Are they on your's?

I believe God is going to ask me two questions. "Why should I let you into my kingdom?" and "How many people did you bring?"

I have had neighbors who have died before I had talked to them.

God is going to ask me, "What about Betty?" and "What about Ralph?"

Why didn't you witness to them? Do you know what the real answer is? I didn't want to. And you all have people in your life that need the gospel. Are they going to be there on judgment day asking why you didn't witness to them and why they have to spend eternity in hell?

I cry for them. If I was in hell, I would be picking up heads of people looking for the face of the one who didn't witness to me.

I cried before for them. I'll cry again.

more to come on this line of thought.....

 

[The Irish Ram]

But Chuck the Law was fulfilled for us. In the OT they reaped what they sowed. We have unmerited favor and grace instead. Christ reaped what we sowed.
The Jews would be forgiven at Yom Kippur with a blood offering and if they sinned the day after, they knew they were forgiven for one year, until next Yom Kippur. It was God's way of keeping them safe. But animal blood only covered their sin, year after year, it never erased it.
The pure blood of Christ does erase it. And God remembers your sins no more. They simply don't exist. To think otherwise would mean Christ's death on the cross wasn't sufficient, or that our input is also necessary to achieve salvation.

There are only 3 judgements ahead. Bema, Nations, and White Throne.
You will attend the Bema Judgement as soon as you arrive in Heaven. Since you are in Heaven you are already sin free, so what is refined are the good works you did for Christ's sake, vs the good works you did for self gratification.< wood hay and stubble. Those good things you did for Christ's sake determine your rewards.

Psalm 103:12 He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west.

Heb. 8:12 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

They are removed from our identity. We look exactly like Christ to God. That was the exchange that took place on the cross. It's finished. You have no sins to account for.

 

[Foxfyre]

And here we have the same debate going that the Church fathers, the authorities of their day, spent hours, weeks, months, years, their entire lives debating. That would include the New Testament patriarchs as well as the faithful men of God who shepherded the Church into the next centuries.

We see it in Paul's letters to the churches. Saved by the grace of God himself, he could not stop writing (and no doubt preaching and teaching) about that. But he was also a Jew raised in the devout Jewish tradition of the Law, and you also see his impulses to rescue and defend it now and then, not as the road to salvation, but as the way of edification and discipline as Christians. So you see his dichotomy as he respected those given authority in the Church while also being aware that some in authority were teaching false doctrine.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians (6:12): "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." NIV

And to the Corinthians he wrote: (2 Cor 11:14-15) "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." NIV

Later Matthew (7:15-16) would quote Jesus as saying: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

And still later John would write: (1 John 4:1) "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." NIV

And ultimately all three, in different ways, would assure us that we have direct communication with God and need no mediator. I tend to be suspicious of ANY authority who presumes to dictate to the people what rules they must follow in order to be acceptable to Christ. I trust most those who teach as Paul wrote to the Phillipians:

(4:8)Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.​

In other words, a true Christian authority will teach that God came in the flesh, died, was buried, and resurrected and in so doing paid for our sins and assured us of eternal life. He now, via the Holy Spirit, is with us and will lead us into all truth unto the end of the Earth. In my opinion, those given authority will use it rightly when they teach this and, more importantly, when they live this themselves. I am suspicious of those in authority who presume to take God's role and dictate rules by which the people must live by in order to be good Christians.

And at the same time I believe God loves all those and honors the pure heart in the more legalistic traditions too.

 

[Chuckt]

But Chuck the Law was fulfilled for us. In the OT they reaped what they sowed. We have unmerited favor and grace instead. Christ reaped what we sowed.

God cursed the ground in Genesis 3:17. God already told Adam the day in which he ate the fruit he would die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

"Unto dust shalt thou return" is death. It has never been repealed. This is not the law of Moses. This is pre-Moses. This has never been repealed because we still get paid a wage and we die physically:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin pays a wage and it has never been repealed.

The apostle was addressing Christians, and warning them to beware of the temporal judgements with which God chastised his offending servants. And in the midst of judgement, God remembers mercy: he many times punishes those whom he loves. It is better to bear trouble in this world, than to be miserable for ever. The apostle points our the duty of those who come to the Lord's table. Self-examination is necessary to right attendance at this holy ordinance. If we would thoroughly search ourselves, to condemn and set right what we find wrong, we should stop Divine judgements.

-Matthew Henry

1 Corinthians 11 Matthew Henry's Commentary

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation (judgment) to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

James gives an explanation that serves at explaining this verse.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.