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OPINION: Why mRNA Vaccines are failing.

Independentthinker

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That might make sense if the only factor involved was the percent vaccinated. Vaccination rates have been increasing but unfortunately so has the delta variant which is far more infections than previous strands. The proof that vaccinations work can be seen by looking at the following graphs. Both new cases and deaths of the alpha variant rose rapidly last Fall peaking about January and February when the vaccines first became available to the general public. New cases and deaths fell rapidly as the vaccination numbers rose reaching a lowest point in epidemic in July as the Delta Variant began spreading across the country. Both cases and deaths along with the new vaccinations rose till October.

In short the peaks in deaths and new cases and lows in deaths and new cases rose prior to vaccine introduction. After the vaccine was introduced the peaks and lows fell interrupted only by the Delta variant reaching a low in July and peaking in Sept. If the increasing number of vaccinations continues through the fall we are likely to see an all time low in both deaths and new cases before the Spring.


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Instead of posting all of those fancy graphs you could have just agreed with me that the vaccines do very little to nothing in stopping the spread of the Delta variant, which is why in the most highly vaccinated countries, Delta cases are surging. 100% of those vaccinated, if exposed to enough of the Delta variant, will spread the virus and the virus is so prolific that it spreads during the time people are asymptomatic. So, trying to claim that in the vaccinated it only spreads for a few days instead of 10-14 for the unvaccinated is very misleading because everyone is spreading it in the first few days and most aren't spreading it after those few days because the sick are sick and staying in. This is why temperature checks were pretty useless in stopping the spread, because once you began feeling sick you weren't going to work, school, out in the public, etc. to have a temp check flag you.
 

colfax_m

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Naaaaaaah, "vaccine" used to mean something good, reliable ---- you won't get smallpox ever, ever. Now it's just one fallback position after another as nothing they advertise proves true.
Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination.

It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.
 

Circe

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Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination.

It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.
Sure they did. Everyone knows this and so do you: it was only last year! What, are you pretending you forgot? Because "vaccine" had a great reputation because of the past successes that are no longer operational, apparently. So they could fool us all by claiming we just hadto-hadto-hadto all get vaccinated and be saved, saved -------- turned out the stuff was no good, though.
 

colfax_m

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Sure they did. Everyone knows this and so do you: it was only last year! What, are you pretending you forgot? Because "vaccine" had a great reputation because of the past successes that are no longer operational, apparently. So they could fool us all by claiming we just hadto-hadto-hadto all get vaccinated and be saved, saved -------- turned out the stuff was no good, though.
I find it hard to believe that the only substantiation of this allegation is your memory of it.

For example, this is Fauci tempering expectations of the vaccine.

 

Flopper

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High-risk groups include known specific comorbitities. All people should make an informed decision to determine about relying on their immune system. Considering the survival rate is 98.4% or greater, depending on which source you read, high-risk groups should be a separate category to show two different stats for the sake of accuracy. I have yet to see any studies but if you have please share . Since the overall survival rate does not separate healthy individuals from individuals with pre-existing conditions (obesity and asthma top two groups) I wonder what the survival rate is for a healthy person without risk factor?

Peer review is an interesting concept. We have a subset of articles in print that are authored by an owner of media outlet. One top US medical journal (I’ve linked this previously)decided to add an additional layer of screening PRIOR to being released for preprint/peer review. Teams of of researchers interviewed lost 18 months of hard work due to their results being blocked. I understand the value of peer review, but it’s far from being a level playing field for all SARS2 (the more logical name for it) research. If it doesn’t fit the narrative…

My point is that natural immunity following infection lasts longer than the current concoctions that are available.
The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat. Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of Corvid cases. Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%. 70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had. As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.
 

ClaireH

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The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat. Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of Corvid cases. Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%. 70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had. As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.
No worries Flopper! Help is on the way- what is out now will soon be replaced (and dumped most likely) by a vaccine providing potentially 17 years immunity as with flu viruses targeted T cells versus memory B cells. Quite the jump from the current “offer”for 3 months reduced chance of severity. Agree?

 

Flopper

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Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination.

It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.
You must get infected for the body to issue an immune response with or without a vaccination. The vaccines can not stop the virus from entering the body and attacking cells. However, once the virus initially breaks into cells and thus begins an infection, the immune system begins to build a defense. Those that been vaccinated or have had a significant covid infection will have a strong immune response within hours. For those that don't, it will takes days or even a week or more before the immune system can mount a strong response to the virus. By that time the virus will have replicated many times.

Anyone who says vaccines don't work because they don't prevent an infection is showing their ignorance because the initial presence of infection is needed to start an immune response.
 

Rigby5

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My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times. The unvaccinated are the ones clogging hospitals, not the vaccinated.

You misunderstand what immunity means.
It does not mean you can't or don't get infected.
What immunity means is that you recover quickly and do not die.

Those with recovery immunity are doing the best.
 

Rigby5

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You must get infected for the body to issue an immune response with or without a vaccination. The vaccines can not stop the virus from entering the body and attacking cells. However, once the virus initially breaks into cells and thus begins an infection, the immune system begins to build a defense. Those that been vaccinated or have had a significant covid infection will have a strong immune response within hours. For those that don't, it will takes days or even a week or more before the immune system can mount a strong response to the virus. By that time the virus will have replicated many times.

Anyone who says vaccines don't work because they don't prevent an infection is showing their ignorance because the initial presence of infection is needed to start an immune response.

The problem with the vaccine appears to be that by not including a virus in the vaccine, the immune system reaction is to only produce antibodies, but not to record the immune response in T-cell memory, so there is nothing after 3 months.
The mRNA vaccines are only producing a temporary immune response.
The mRNA vaccines are not creating any lasting immunity.
 

Rigby5

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This is the fantasy story you’ve created to justify your world view. It’s not based on real world knowledge.

Wrong.
They said the efficiency of the mRNA injections at first was 90%
The a month later they said it was 60%.
Then after another month, the story was 30%.
So then clearly the vaccine immunity only lasts 3 months, which is how long the initial antibodies live.
Which then means the mRNA synthetic vaccines do not work and do not program long term immunity memory in T-cells.
 

Flopper

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No worries Flopper! Help is on the way- what is out now will soon be replaced (and dumped most likely) by a vaccine providing potentially 17 years immunity as with flu viruses targeted T cells versus memory B cells. Quite the jump from the current “offer”for 3 months reduced chance of severity. Agree?

There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.

FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months. At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness. Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly. As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening. I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.
 

Rigby5

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The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat. Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of Corvid cases. Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%. 70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had. As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.

Not true.
Studies have shown that those who did were asymptomatic already had very good immunity and even those who got infected but did not get seriously ill resulted in full immune response for the future.


{...
Virus-specific B cells increased over time. People had more memory B cells six months after symptom onset than at one month afterwards. Although the number of these cells appeared to reach a plateau after a few months, levels didn’t decline over the period studied.

Levels of T cells for the virus also remained high after infection. Six months after symptom onset, 92% of participants had CD4+ T cells that recognized the virus. These cells help coordinate the immune response. About half the participants had CD8+ T cells, which kill cells that are infected by the virus.

As with antibodies, the numbers of different immune cell types varied substantially between individuals. Neither gender nor differences in disease severity could account for this variability. However, 95% of the people had at least 3 out of 5 immune-system components that could recognize SARS-CoV-2 up to 8 months after infection.

“Several months ago, our studies showed that natural infection induced a strong response, and this study now shows that the responses last,” Weiskopf says. “We are hopeful that a similar pattern of responses lasting over time will also emerge for the vaccine-induced responses.”

—by Sharon Reynolds
...}
 

Rigby5

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There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.

FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months. At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness. Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly. As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening. I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.

Unlikely the mRNA vaccines will ever work because it is a flawed idea.
There is on way the immune system can differentiate in its long term memory between different pathogens if there is no pathogen like in the mRNA vaccines.
The CDC claims the mRNA vaccines enter your own cells, programming them to grow spike proteins.
Well you can't just tell your immune system to trigger on any and all spike proteins, because your own exosomes also used the same spike proteins.
So then what are the T-cells supposed to remember to trigger on?
 

Flopper

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The problem with the vaccine appears to be that by not including a virus in the vaccine, the immune system reaction is to only produce antibodies, but not to record the immune response in T-cell memory, so there is nothing after 3 months.
The mRNA vaccines are only producing a temporary immune response.
The mRNA vaccines are not creating any lasting immunity.
No sure what you call lasting immunity. The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective. On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly. The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.

Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity. However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone. That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it. Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months. Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.
 

Flopper

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Unlikely the mRNA vaccines will ever work because it is a flawed idea.
There is on way the immune system can differentiate in its long term memory between different pathogens if there is no pathogen like in the mRNA vaccines.
The CDC claims the mRNA vaccines enter your own cells, programming them to grow spike proteins.
Well you can't just tell your immune system to trigger on any and all spike proteins, because your own exosomes also used the same spike proteins.
So then what are the T-cells supposed to remember to trigger on?
Go to any hospital with a Covid ward and you'll see plenty of proof that these vaccines work. A covid ward at the hospital I go had 12 corvid deaths' last month. 11 of the 12 were unvaccinated.
 

Flopper

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Go to any hospital with a Covid ward and you'll see plenty of proof that these vaccines work. A covid ward at the hospital I go to had 12 corvid deaths' last month. 11 of the 12 were unvaccinated.
 

krichton

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From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.

Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.

Modified RNA vaccines look for "parts" of the virus, not the virus itself. While they will lessen the severity if you do become infected, once the antibodies are gone its the same as never having seen the virus, as you body did not have to heal and create B and T cells in your bone marrow. The antibodies were triggered by a part of a virus and not the virus, in this case, the "spike proteins". You gain no long term protections.

This is also why you can become infectious to others. The virus grows unabated until there are sufficient "spike proteins" to trigger a response from your immune system. This is why people get ill, become infective, but have very mild cases. It is the lack of healing and the trigger by spike proteins which stops the body from creating long term immunities in B and T cells. Once your antibodies are gone from this mRNA vaccine your body has never seen or reacted to the actual virus, you are now a walking time bomb again to have a very sever case.

In summary;

* The "trigger" for your immune system is the spike proteins and not the virus. The human bodies immune system never trains itself to look for the virus. No long term immunity is formed.

* Once the active antibodies are gone from a mRNA virus you are again at risk to become ill. Without the formation of long term immunities in your bone marrow which look for the virus you do not gain these.

* Because the mRNA vaccine trains the body to look for the 'spike proteins', the virus will run rampant until it creates sufficient mass to trigger the antibody response from the spike proteins. This time period allows the viral load to amass and the person to become infective to others. The body never responds to the virus as a threat. The antibodies will attack anything that has the spike proteins present so it kills the infection.

* mRNA antibodies rapidly decrease at 3-4 months. By 5-9 months they are insufficient to foster further protections.

* mRNA vaccines cause swelling of cardiac tissues in persons under the age of 25 and blood clots in women.

The studies coming out about the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is stunning. Problems, like viral transmission, were not foreseen by the creator of the method. While this method does make early vaccine intervention possible, it is not a long term solution to endemic viruses such as COVID-19. Using identifiable parts of a virus can give some protection to mutation outbreaks, if the right part is used, but it can also have unforeseen bad outcomes.

In My Opinion, the fact that mRNA vaccine are incapable of creating long term memory and immunities makes them a stop gap measure until a more suitable vaccine can be created which does. Now Europe is seeing its third wave because of waning vaccine antibodies. Something needs to change fast or this will cycle never stop. I am glad that I have had the virus and have acquired (non-vaccine) driven immunities. My body has long term memory cells so my problem is over as far as COVID 19 is concerned.

References:

Sinovac was created using the traditional method for making vaccines and when it was released it had an efficacy rating of 50%. J&J and Astra did not use MRNA and while their results were better they were nowhere near as good as Pfizer or Moderna. You say you're not antivax but you spread antivax propaganda. What you just did was taken straight from the antivax 101 playbook the main purpose of is 1. sow doubt with lies and 2. spread fear with lies.


Contracting COVID-19 vs. Vaccination: Which is better for immunity?



 

ClaireH

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There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.

FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months. At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness. Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly. As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening. I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.

Your response lacks the bottom line.

The difference between 4 to 5 months in a potential reduction in severity of symptoms is mute. In fact, only 5% of the population even need this “vaccine”. These fake vaccines produce three months or four months of reducing the chances of severity when it does nothing for prevention. Most people (95%-sourced) are not in the high-risk groups. These evolving data/details that I revisit daily prove this to be the case.

Think of the tried and true (for most people) traditional vaccines. What do they do they do? They reduce the numbers contracting an illness and prevent the spread of illness. Do you agree that what we have out now in the US do neither of those two things?

The profit/fame shysters new well that labeling a fake vaccine (Webster’s just added messenger RNA to the definition of vaccine last January- good grief) would convince the public it worked like a traditional vaccine. This label was intentional by design to mislead the public. As far as which individual came up with it is without any doubt a highly paid individual, perhaps a bonus involved following. He or she (most likely male due to numbers alone) is not likely going to come out and “take credit”. That is a detail I’ll need to revisit to try to find the name and affiliation which is equally important. I have a good guess about the affiliation, do you?

I beg to differ that the current messenger RNA “vaccines” are going to start producing longer antibody activity than the data show without total change-up. Anyone using common sense already recognizes that if something is not working, yet the advice is to keep getting it over and over, sonething is awry. This is 2021 not 1821.

I might’ve already mentioned this but there are over 200 pharmaceutical companies testing better options due to these lackluster products not working. Far superior will be those targeting the T cells as opposed to memory B cells, at least currently.

One thing about pharmaceutical companies as they are so competitive there will be eventually an exceptional product available. It’s still doesn’t mean it’s a one size fits all and healthy people should even get it for a virus in which 95 percent of the population experience cold-like symptoms.

High risk groups are another story. I am referencing the 95% of the population.

You might assume I’m being facetious but I’m completely serious. Have you invested in messenger RNA? I ask because apparently you are intelligent but you lack seeing the easy stuff, so what’s going on exactly?
 
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Rigby5

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No sure what you call lasting immunity. The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective. On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly. The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.

Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity. However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone. That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it. Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months. Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.

There is no ambiguity about lasting immunity.
It means T-cell memory in the bone marrow, not just antibodies.

Yearly flu vaccines have nothing to do with loss of immunity.
There are hundreds of different diseases we collectively call flu, that is all.
And the vaccine does not lose it effectiveness, it is just a different disease become prevalent.

Anthrax vaccine is not considered a success.
{... To build up protection against anthrax, people need 5 doses over a period of 18 months. However, it is unknown how long that protection lasts so people who are recommended to get this vaccine are advised to get a booster dose each year to stay protected. ... }

You appear to be wrong about Yellow Fever vaccines.
{... Most people begin to develop immunity within ten days of vaccination and 99 percent are protected within one month, and this appears to be lifelong....}

The J&J contains a virus, but NOT the covid virus, so again there is nothing for the immune system to target against.
{... The J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine also contains a piece of a modified virus that is not the virus that causes COVID-19. This modified virus is called the vector virus. The vector virus cannot reproduce itself, so it is harmless. This vector virus gives instructions to cells in the body to create an immune response. This response helps protect you from getting sick with COVID-19 in the future. After the body produces an immune response, it discards all of the vaccine ingredients just as it would discard any information that cells no longer need. ...}

Vaccines that contain actual virus do not have a worse risk record but a better one.

How could mRNA vaccines last more than 3 months?
The immediate antibodies can not last more than 3 months, and what could the T-cells store?
Without any virus in the mRNA injection, there is nothing the immune system can use to store the immunity response against.
It can't store against spike proteins, since our own exosomes have to use these same spike proteins for ACE2 receptor access.
 

ClaireH

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No sure what you call lasting immunity. The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective. On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly. The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.

Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity. However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone. That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it. Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months. Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.
17 years is lasting immunity.
 

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