On PTS and PTSD

[Annie]

The thread discussing these issues, turned into 'Bash Bush' so I've started a new one. There's been some more realistic discussion regarding service members needs on some of the milblogs, surprise. On of the best, again no surprise I found at Blackfive, by Grim. It's not about numbers, more to those having a problem:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/11/on-ptsd-or-more.html#more

This is just the intro and yes, there are a lot of links:

On PTSD, or more properly, on Coming Home
Posted By Grim

Kat from Castle Donovan wanted us to talk seriously about the problem of what is fashionably called "PTSD." No one here needs an introduction to the topic. Kat's concern is that, in knocking down bad numbers on veterans' mental or spiritual health, we might ignore a real problem that needs to be dealt with.

She wants us to talk honestly about it, so I'm going to do that. There's quite a bit about myself I'm not going to tell you, now or ever. I will tell you some things you haven't heard before, to be sure, but I won't tell you why I know what I know. Just see if it seems right to you.

Professor Andrew Lubin and I talked to COL Sackett, of TSGLI, about the need for legislation to help make sure combat veterans can receive whatever treatment they want without wrecking their career. There is also the famous problem of the 'stigma' of asking for help, which is often seen as an admission that you're bent or broken or damaged. Young men, as combat soldiers tend to be, often don't want to show weakness. That is natural enough.

What you need to know, first and last, is that so-called PTSD is not an illness. It is a normal condition for people who have been through what you have been through. The instinct to kill and war is native to humanity. It is very deeply rooted in me, as it is in you. We have rules and customs to restrain it, so that sometimes we may have peace. What you are experiencing is not an illness, but the awareness of what human nature is like deep down. It is the awareness of what life is like without the walls that protect civilization.

Those who have never been outside those walls don't know: they can't see. The walls form their horizon. You know what lays beyond them, and can't forget it. What we're going to talk about today is how to come home, back inside those walls: how to learn to trust them again.

There is a sense that combat changes people, but it really doesn't. It brings out parts of yourself that were always there, but that you hadn't encountered directly. Those parts are in everyone else as well. No one has clean hands. No one is different from you. That is important, so let me repeat it. Everyone around you is just like you. They don't know it, but they are. You are not sick; you are not broken. Everyone else is just the same...

There's also this post that discusses the issues of receiving care and the problems that may bring to a military or even civilian position:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/07/tsgli-traumatic.html

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It is considered a mental illness or mental problem. The Military is very distrustful of those two labels. However even before the Iraq war great steps were taken INSIDE the military to recognize treatable conditions that can be easily controlled and will not effect the members ability to serve.

With this condition it is ,as with all mental conditions, a case by case assessment for active duty personnel. As long as you can be expected to serve world wide or even in a semi restrictive nature and continue to preform your mission and your job then the only real stigma is the old fear that any blemish will get you tossed.

The military cares about mission accomplishment and the easy ability to deploy members where ever needed. Temporary difficulties in those regards are acceptable, permanent or very long lasting difficulties in those regards are not viewed favorably.

 

[Annie]

It is considered a mental illness or mental problem. The Military is very distrustful of those two labels. However even before the Iraq war great steps were taken INSIDE the military to recognize treatable conditions that can be easily controlled and will not effect the members ability to serve.

With this condition it is ,as with all mental conditions, a case by case assessment for active duty personnel. As long as you can be expected to serve world wide or even in a semi restrictive nature and continue to preform your mission and your job then the only real stigma is the old fear that any blemish will get you tossed.

The military cares about mission accomplishment and the easy ability to deploy members where ever needed. Temporary difficulties in those regards are acceptable, permanent or very long lasting difficulties in those regards are not viewed favorably.

Actually if you go to the second link there's some truth to what you say and some big problems. I'm more curious about your take on Grim's post though.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

PTSD has been abused before the war. The VA has been accused of simply assigning that term to anybody and giving them increased benefits. I personally do not subscribe to that claim.

My non military doctors tried to label me with PTSD. I have never been in combat, never been in a field with life threatening requirements. We had a very long discussion about why I disagreed with said label. And they removed it from any diagnosis for my medical conditions.

What is to discuss? PTSD is a real condition. It is handled differently by each individual that has it occur. The military has , again long before the war, taken major steps to address "mental" conditions that do not impact long term service. They have tried [at least in the Marine Corps] and on military run radio and TV stations to let people know to seek help and that their career will not be damaged for asking for help { that only occurs if the problem is severe enough to impact readiness and ability to preform your mission}

Is his assessment of one cause of PTSD correct, probably for some people. Probably not for others. The VA has increased its programs to help Veterans in this regard. I suspect the active Military medical community has as well.

The stigma is still there for many reasons, one being that 30 years ago any "mental" problem was seen by command as a weakness and no regulations were in place to protect a service member that sought medical treatment for those conditions. I am sure some Commands and Senior leaders [ both commissioned officers and non commissioned officers] still view it as a weakness just for seeking help. But regulations exist now to prevent any obvious career ruining moves for temporary fixable conditions { but there ARE still ways for the truly motivated unbelievers to put a damper on a career]

 

[Gunny]

PTSD has been abused before the war. The VA has been accused of simply assigning that term to anybody and giving them increased benefits. I personally do not subscribe to that claim.

My non military doctors tried to label me with PTSD. I have never been in combat, never been in a field with life threatening requirements. We had a very long discussion about why I disagreed with said label. And they removed it from any diagnosis for my medical conditions.

What is to discuss? PTSD is a real condition. It is handled differently by each individual that has it occur. The military has , again long before the war, taken major steps to address "mental" conditions that do not impact long term service. They have tried [at least in the Marine Corps] and on military run radio and TV stations to let people know to seek help and that their career will not be damaged for asking for help { that only occurs if the problem is severe enough to impact readiness and ability to preform your mission}

Is his assessment of one cause of PTSD correct, probably for some people. Probably not for others. The VA has increased its programs to help Veterans in this regard. I suspect the active Military medical community has as well.

The stigma is still there for many reasons, one being that 30 years ago any "mental" problem was seen by command as a weakness and no regulations were in place to protect a service member that sought medical treatment for those conditions. I am sure some Commands and Senior leaders [ both commissioned officers and non commissioned officers] still view it as a weakness just for seeking help. But regulations exist now to prevent any obvious career ruining moves for temporary fixable conditions { but there ARE still ways for the truly motivated unbelievers to put a damper on a career]

The should just let Chimps Faggoty do the diagnoses. By his way of thinking, if you don't believe in his brand of bigotry and hatred, you're a fraud. The concept that anyone could come out from behind mum's couch and shed the ruffled pink panties and assume the responsibilites of a man is inconceivable.

PTSD is real, and it screws people up. Anyone that actually suffers from it deserves the pittance the gov't throws their way. IMO tho, it's abused in roughly the same way welfare is. The screening process needs to be stringent, and those that truly rate should get. The frauds should be set outside on the curb.

 

[Annie]

The should just let Chimps Faggoty do the diagnoses. By his way of thinking, if you don't believe in his brand of bigotry and hatred, you're a fraud. The concept that anyone could come out from behind mum's couch and shed the ruffled pink panties and assume the responsibilites of a man is inconceivable.

PTSD is real, and it screws people up. Anyone that actually suffers from it deserves the pittance the gov't throws their way. IMO tho, it's abused in roughly the same way welfare is. The screening process needs to be stringent, and those that truly rate should get. The frauds should be set outside on the curb.

Gunny maybe I missed something here. I read through the clicks and he spoke at length with both doctors in the military and others. He advised getting to a psychiatrist and pressed the military officer about what that does to both those that wish to stay in, regarding promotions and those that leave and perhaps want to go for security clearances and such.

I didn't get at all what you seem to be saying about the post. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Gunny]

Gunny maybe I missed something here. I read through the clicks and he spoke at length with both doctors in the military and others. He advised getting to a psychiatrist and pressed the military officer about what that does to both those that wish to stay in, regarding promotions and those that leave and perhaps want to go for security clearances and such.

I didn't get at all what you seem to be saying about the post. Maybe I'm missing something?

You would have to go to the Taunting Arena and read Chimp's homage to me. Then it would make perfect sense.

There was a thread awhile back on this topic and I broke my usual silence on the topic and discussed it. The short version is, it's real, and it isn't any fun. Chimps chose to take that info and use it to cheap shot me in a lame attempt to get under my skin.

I did however address PTSD, even if if minimally. If you'd like a little peek into what it is, just imagine 17 years of not sleeping through a whole night once without waking several times, and getting about 4-5 hours max sleep per night. Or beign shaken awake by your wife while you're taking cover behind the chest of drawers ... or spending the first year back sleeping on the living room floor with the patio door wide open and a gun under your pillow because you go berserk in the bedroom.

The alternative is being drugged for the rest of your life, and it is that which I previously addressed. I deal with the other rather than take the drugs and Chimps chose to take a shot at me about me.

It doesn't make me braver than the rest ... it's a personal decision on my part. Simple as that. Those that need the help and cannot deal with it on their own should have it. On that, I have absolutely no issue.

 

[Annie]

Gunny, I didn't see him say it wasn't real, (not anyone on the board), rather the posting from Blackfive. Nevertheless, I certainly wasn't trying to stir anything up and apologize if I inadvertently did.

 

[Gunny]

Gunny, I didn't see him say it wasn't real, (not anyone on the board), rather the posting from Blackfive. Nevertheless, I certainly wasn't trying to stir anything up and apologize if I inadvertently did.

No, ma'am, you didn't stir anything up. This one's on me. Sorry I hajacked your thread to return fire at an ignorant, hate-filled dimwit.

 

[DiogenesDog]

I have lived the last 13 years with an adopted daughter whose brain was forever altered by shoddy prenatal care, post-natal care (first 90 days) and horrors and atrocities brought upon her by both predatory advantage takers and well meaning but bumbling first adoptive parents.

PSTD, as I have posted elsewhere in this forum is a neuro-chemical aberration of the brain that is brought on by overwhelming short term stress or long term unremitting anxiety from the conditions of nurture in the way of care givers.

A GI can only be next in line behind a truck in a convoy that is hit with an IED so many times before his brain functioning is altered and he becomes fatalistic and either adopts a hyper sensitivity (to danger and a positive approach to his duties), or a hypo sensitivity (unable to react in effective ways).

Why is it that people who have conventional retirements from conventional but stressful job situations die from boredom with in a very few years from their retirement? I believe that the brain needs to be fed the diet to which it has grown accustomed or it shuts down the system with a coronary surprise. Either that, or a period of hypochondria and acting out that results in suicide.

Where I live, I see a new crop of retirees every year. I also see a lot of street vets and I see a lot of foster kids. Many of you lead lives that are well insulated and comfortable even if you are not in the big money ranks. The best thing that this society had to offer in the past was was some opportunity for people who are poorly trained, limited in physical ability and live far from opportunities without access to transportation. All those opportunities have been outsourced, mechanized or turned into shopping centers. There are street people in urban settings. All may have some bit of stress, some may have more stress, others are eaten alive with it and are also subject to harm by family caregivers, foster care givers, and law enforcement for unconventional behavior and or sleeping accommodations. PSTD is something that is part of a process that begins with brain functioning. You may pray your way out of it but it usually takes a bit of medication, therapy, support groups and understanding by those not so affected.

Word!

I AM

 

[DiogenesDog]

for popping green smoke again.

I am your student,

I AM

 

[Chips Rafferty]

You would have to go to the Taunting Arena and read Chimp's homage to me. Then it would make perfect sense.

There was a thread awhile back on this topic and I broke my usual silence on the topic and discussed it. The short version is, it's real, and it isn't any fun. Chimps chose to take that info and use it to cheap shot me in a lame attempt to get under my skin.

I did however address PTSD, even if if minimally. If you'd like a little peek into what it is, just imagine 17 years of not sleeping through a whole night once without waking several times, and getting about 4-5 hours max sleep per night. Or beign shaken awake by your wife while you're taking cover behind the chest of drawers ... or spending the first year back sleeping on the living room floor with the patio door wide open and a gun under your pillow because you go berserk in the bedroom.

The alternative is being drugged for the rest of your life, and it is that which I previously addressed. I deal with the other rather than take the drugs and Chimps chose to take a shot at me about me.

It doesn't make me braver than the rest ... it's a personal decision on my part. Simple as that. Those that need the help and cannot deal with it on their own should have it. On that, I have absolutely no issue.

I just happened across this post.

You are most definitely labouring under a misapprehension, Digger!

The post that you refer to

These spineless Lexapro poppin’ poofters deserve to die, don’t they OneDumbino!

Who ever heard of real heroes, like John Wayne, Vic Morrow, or our own Retrenched Radio Lineman, suiciding or snivelling about their pretend “PTSD” - like these obviously Librul girly men?

What a disgrace to the nation these fragile little faggots are.

Even camp-follower Kathy, who starts horsing at the merest whiff of webbing, wouldn’t wantonly throw herself under one these mincing limp-wristed wimps!

...was meant as a sneering retort to OneDomino, who taunts me as a coward for taking Lexapro for my PTSD.

I posted the enclosed link to show this Recliner Ranger that even his imagined almighty American servicemen end up fucked up and they too take anti-psychotic medication - for what I have found no amount of psychotherapy can fix.

Since I have taken Lexapro – nearly 3 years now – the incidences of my night horrors have been almost halved. I am finally getting an average of 4 - 5 hours uninterrupted sleep per night.

This is a vast improvement on me drinking myself into oblivion to get, perhaps, 2 or 3 hours fitful sleep, as I did for many years, or "white knuckling" it for around 20 of my sober years.

Hanging shit on my class enemies in this forum is one thing, hanging shit on servicemen who have been up the sharp end of the stick is another.

The only reason I (tongue-in-cheek) mentioned you as the epitome of the stoic war hero, is that is how many of the Nintendo Ninjas, like Onedomino, and the camp followers like Kathy "Lili Marlene" Anne here (dare I say, incorrectly?) see you.

THERE IS NO WAY KNOWN I WOULD EVER SNEER AT YOU OR ANY SERVICEMEN, WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY AND/OR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY, FOR HAVING RE-RUNS OF THE STARK TERROR AND TRAUMA THEY EXPERIENCED

I am really sorry I didn't see this post(s) before and thus set the record straight between us.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I just happened across this post.

You are most definitely labouring under a misapprehension, Digger!

The post that you refer to



was meant as a sneering retort to OneDomino, who taunts me as a coward for taking Lexapro for my PTSD.

I posted the enclosed link to show this Recliner Ranger that even his imagined almighty American servicemen end up fucked up and they too take anti-psychotic medication - for what I have found no amount of psychotherapy can fix.

Since I have taken Lexapro – nearly 3 years now – the incidences of my night horrors have been almost halved. I am finally getting an average of 4 - 5hours uninterrupted sleep per night.

This is a vast improvement on me drinking myself into oblivion to get, perhaps,2 or 3 hours fitful sleep, as I did for many years, or "white knuckling" it for around 20 of my sober years.

Hanging shit on my class enemies in this forum is one thing, hanging shit on servicemen who have been up the sharp end of the stick is another.

The only reason I (tongue-in-cheek) mentioned you as the epitome of the stoic war hero, is that is how many of the Nintendo Ninjas like Onedomino and the camp followers like Kathy "Lili Marlene" Anne here (dare I say, incorrectly?)see you.

THERE IS NO WAY KNOWN I WOULD EVER SNEER AT YOU OR ANY SERVICEMEN, WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY AND/OR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY, FOR HAVING RE-RUNS OF THE STARK TERROR AND TRAUMA THEY EXPERIENCED

I am really sorry I didn't see this post(s) before and thus set the record straight between us.

Anyone that would begrudge someone medication for a medical problem is an IDIOT. Plain and simple. Anyone that thinks this is NOT a medical problem is ALSO an IDIOT.

Such people deserve to be made to look the fools they are. Keep up the good work and I am glad to hear something works at least a bit for you.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Anyone that would begrudge someone medication for a medical problem is an IDIOT. Plain and simple. Anyone that thinks this is NOT a medical problem is ALSO an IDIOT.

Such people deserve to be made to look the fools they are. Keep up the good work and I am glad to hear something works at least a bit for you.

Thanks, Ralph

Sam

 

[Gunny]

I just happened across this post.

You are most definitely labouring under a misapprehension, Digger!

The post that you refer to



...was meant as a sneering retort to OneDomino, who taunts me as a coward for taking Lexapro for my PTSD.

I posted the enclosed link to show this Recliner Ranger that even his imagined almighty American servicemen end up fucked up and they too take anti-psychotic medication - for what I have found no amount of psychotherapy can fix.

Since I have taken Lexapro – nearly 3 years now – the incidences of my night horrors have been almost halved. I am finally getting an average of 4 - 5 hours uninterrupted sleep per night.

This is a vast improvement on me drinking myself into oblivion to get, perhaps, 2 or 3 hours fitful sleep, as I did for many years, or "white knuckling" it for around 20 of my sober years.

Hanging shit on my class enemies in this forum is one thing, hanging shit on servicemen who have been up the sharp end of the stick is another.

The only reason I (tongue-in-cheek) mentioned you as the epitome of the stoic war hero, is that is how many of the Nintendo Ninjas, like Onedomino, and the camp followers like Kathy "Lili Marlene" Anne here (dare I say, incorrectly?) see you.

THERE IS NO WAY KNOWN I WOULD EVER SNEER AT YOU OR ANY SERVICEMEN, WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY AND/OR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY, FOR HAVING RE-RUNS OF THE STARK TERROR AND TRAUMA THEY EXPERIENCED

I am really sorry I didn't see this post(s) before and thus set the record straight between us.

I stand corrected. My bad, and I apologize.

 

[Annie]

For the record, I have never minimized PTSD in any way. The original post was not an affront to those that have had the effects of being in extremely stressful situations, rather it was one person's, (who happens to have served and basically has admitted to having lived through the repercussions of certain situations), posed alternative way of addressing the effects, that might work for some:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/11/ptsd-and-the-re.html

Actually Grim responded to Kat's post not she to his. Kat asked.

The best way to mitigate stigmatization of these conditions, improve acceptance, increase treatment and reduce the chances of PTS becoming "chronic" or even PTSD turning into suicidal tendencies, is to accept it ourselves.

Isn't it time we milblogs stopped worrying about "the politics" started having a real conversation?​

Grim answered.

What you need to know, first and last, is that so-called PTSD is not an illness. It is a normal condition for people who have been through what you have been through.​

Grim wrote one of the best treatments of a difficult topic I can recall. Unlike Sully's single quote, taken alone, Grim did not minimize the horrors that lurk in the head of anyone who has seen combat and terror up close and personally. Quite the opposite, what he does is to normalize it. He tells our returning troops that they are not broken if they are feeling screwed up and unable to deal. I talked about the same topic here...

 

[Chips Rafferty]

It is considered a mental illness or mental problem. The Military is very distrustful of those two labels. However even before the Iraq war great steps were taken INSIDE the military to recognize treatable conditions that can be easily controlled and will not effect the members ability to serve.

With this condition it is ,as with all mental conditions, a case by case assessment for active duty personnel. As long as you can be expected to serve world wide or even in a semi restrictive nature and continue to preform your mission and your job then the only real stigma is the old fear that any blemish will get you tossed.

The military cares about mission accomplishment and the easy ability to deploy members where ever needed. Temporary difficulties in those regards are acceptable, permanent or very long lasting difficulties in those regards are not viewed favorably.

PTSD may well be an emotional or psychiatric condition, but this dis-ease can cause many undocumented physical symptoms.

For instance, until 2 weeks ago, when I was put on “Minipress,” my blood pressure has never been under 175/80 since around 1968, no matter WHAT BP medication doctors had me on.

This would never have happened had a psychiatrist – that I finally acquiesced to seeing at my doctors incessant urging - suggested my uncontrollable BP was caused by a condition once known as “Soldier’s Heart.”

As she explained, doctors first noticed it during the American Civil War, when otherwise perfectly healthy young soldiers were having heart attacks on the eve of battle. Of course back then their officers were convinced they were "swinging the lead" and accused them of cowardice.

Similarly, it seems that adrenalin, produced by the “Fight or Flight” mechanism in my brain, still has the muscles and soft tissue around my arteries so tensed up for the anticipated trauma, that ceased years ago, my blood vessels were severely constricted.

I wonder how many vets are getting treated for physical manifestation of PTSD.

Google in “PTSD shell shock” for more.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I stand corrected. My bad, and I apologize.

No sweat, Guns.