Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy

[WorldWatcher]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Been saying that for year.

But the Oklahoma failure will probably be one of limiting it to clergy.

Marriage is just a word, If Wal Mart wants to "marry" people , who cares?

The bill doesn't limit Civil Marriages to just clergy, it provides for Common Law Marriages in the absence of religious Marriage Certificate.


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[WorldWatcher]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

On Tuesday, the Oklahoma state House approved legislation that transfers the issuance of marriage licenses from the state to clergy members.

Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy - Breitbart

So...those who aren't religious are left out. Not surprised....atheists and gays were already fellow travelers when it comes to discrimination by the Far Right.

No, those that are not religious can get Civilly Married by filing as a Common Law Marriage - that is still a valid Civil Marriage.


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[M14 Shooter]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privileges
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Who defines clergy?

The ordaining body for that ministry, then the clergy member just has to file the credentials with the office of the county clerk.

(Page 9 of 15 in the bill previously linked.)


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[PratchettFan]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

On Tuesday, the Oklahoma state House approved legislation that transfers the issuance of marriage licenses from the state to clergy members.

Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy - Breitbart

1. Actually it identifies them as Marriage Certificates (under the new law and not licenses).

2. It really doesn't change anything as some members of the clergy will perform same-sex religious marriages and issue them a certificate.

3. The law, in the absence of a religious Marriage Certificate, provides for Common Law Marriages - those will be legally valid Civil Marriage still.

4. So same sex couple will still be able to get Civilly Married just like different-sex couples (given that differentiation by sex of the couple has been found unconstitutional and is likely to be upheld by the SCOTUS).



Here is a link to the bill -->> http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 INT/hB/HB1125 INT.PDF


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You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

 

[WorldWatcher]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

On Tuesday, the Oklahoma state House approved legislation that transfers the issuance of marriage licenses from the state to clergy members.

Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy - Breitbart

So...those who aren't religious are left out. Not surprised....atheists and gays were already fellow travelers when it comes to discrimination by the Far Right.

Not at all. According to the bill, without a signature from a clergy member a couple may file for an affidavit of common law marriage. You're covered if you move here.

Bod's already Civilly Married in another state.

She wouldn't have to file in Oklahoma. The bill only applies to the performance of marriages in the State, it's not about people that get married outside the State.


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[Pop23]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

 

[PratchettFan]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?
Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

Distinction w/o a difference.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


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[Luddly Neddite]

Civil marriage is legally binding.

Religious marriage is not legally binding and means nothing, except whatever that couple decides it means for them.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Civil marriage is legally binding.

Religious marriage is not legally binding and means nothing, except whatever that couple decides it means for them.

Under this law a Religious Marriage is registered with the State and upon registration becomes a Civil Marriage.


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What I find funny is that no one has asked a question from the other end of the line.

Must a married couple bring a Certificate of Divorce from the religious organization that issued them the Marriage Certificate and register that with the County Clerk to then be divorced?


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[PratchettFan]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


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I don't think so....

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.


There is no change in the law in this area.

 

[Syriusly]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

What homophobic bigots lying!

I am shocked- shocked I tell you!

 

[WorldWatcher]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


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I don't think so....

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.


There is no change in the law in this area.

That's not what the bill says.

1. Underline = Insertion of new text
2. Strikethrough = Deletion of old text
​

Here is what it says:

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.​

"All" and "by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state" being strikethroughs signifies the text jis being deleted. "Except as provided in subsection E of this section" being underlined signifies it is new text.


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[ogibillm]

Who defines clergy?

The ordaining body for that ministry, then the clergy member just has to file the credentials with the office of the county clerk.

(Page 9 of 15 in the bill previously linked.)


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then the question becomes who defines an ordaining body, or religious organization?

This seems like a bad idea for many reasons. Say billy bob loves charlene, but she don't love him back. Billy bob gets cousin brother revrend joe bob of all saint's snake handlers' church to declare the two of them married and file the certificate... what does charlene do then?

 

[WorldWatcher]

Who defines clergy?

The ordaining body for that ministry, then the clergy member just has to file the credentials with the office of the county clerk.

(Page 9 of 15 in the bill previously linked.)


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then the question becomes who defines an ordaining body, or religious organization?

This seems like a bad idea for many reasons. Say billy bob loves charlene, but she don't love him back. Billy bob gets cousin brother revrend joe bob of all saint's snake handlers' church to declare the two of them married and file the certificate... what does charlene do then?

Goes to the cops.

Your scenario makes no sense. The minister, Billy Bob, Charlene, and two witness must sign the marriage certificate. If Billy Bob just gets Joe Bob to fake a certificate, then that is fraud - a criminal offense.

Didn't read the law did you?


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Now could the Church of Elvis ordain a minister and setup a drive through window religoius marriage business? Yep.

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[ogibillm]

Who defines clergy?

The ordaining body for that ministry, then the clergy member just has to file the credentials with the office of the county clerk.

(Page 9 of 15 in the bill previously linked.)


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then the question becomes who defines an ordaining body, or religious organization?

This seems like a bad idea for many reasons. Say billy bob loves charlene, but she don't love him back. Billy bob gets cousin brother revrend joe bob of all saint's snake handlers' church to declare the two of them married and file the certificate... what does charlene do then?

Goes to the cops.

Your scenario makes no sense. The minister, Billy Bob, Charlene, and two witness must sign the marriage certificate. If Billy Bob just gets Joe Bob to fake a certificate, then that is fraud - a criminal offense.

Didn't read the law did you?


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Now could the Church of Elvis ordain a minister and setup a drive through window religoius marriage business? Yep.

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I must have missed the part requiring the signature of the couple. found it now... still seems like you're putting a lot of trust in people that haven't earned it

The law also seems rather limiting in its definition of acceptable clergy

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

Illustrating why Breitbart is not a credible source and that most USMB conservatives are liars.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The law also seems rather limiting in its definition of acceptable clergy

Could be, but not likely to be applied that way. If the State were to try to say that Muslim Imans, Buddhist Priests, Hindu Priests, etc. could not perform marriages in the state and allowing only Christian and Jewish Clergy to do them - they would have problems in court.

Secondly, there are many Christian Churches that will issue Marriage Certificates to same-sex couples and as a matter of fact the Presbyterian Church is currently voting on allowing (not requiring) for the performance of SS marriages. IIRC the current vote by their organizations is 2:1 in support of allowing them.


Presbytery of East TN approves same-sex marriage amendment


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