OK, I'm all ears.

Mariner

Active Member
Nov 7, 2004
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Boston, Mass.
This is my first post on this forum. I'm a certified Cambridge liberal. Among other things, that means I'm empathetic, so I care what you think. I'm wondering if some of you would take the trouble to explain to me how Bush policy works. My understanding so far is that Bush's own 2001, 2002, and 2003 projections for economic and job performance have turned out woefully untrue. As a reasonable summary of my concerns, here's a New York Times piece from a couple of days ago:

ECONOMIC VIEW

Taxes and Consequences: The Second Term Begins
By DANIEL ALTMAN

Published: November 7, 2004



RESIDENT BUSH began his first term with projections for $5.6 trillion in budget surpluses. Though he will start his second term facing at least $2.3 trillion in deficits, according to the Congressional Budget Office, his tax-cutting ambitions are even greater. Here are some of the initiatives that he's likely to push, and the unanswered questions that go with them.

Privatization of Social Security President Bush said he wants to give workers an opportunity to divert part of their payroll taxes to individual investment accounts, in the hope that the financial markets would pay higher returns than the existing Social Security system. That money would otherwise have gone to pay benefits for current retirees, however. How would the administration close the gap? Also, who would choose where workers could put their money? Would they have been able to invest in Enron? What about investing abroad? And finally, what would happen if financial markets crashed? In Chile, whose private pension system has been cited as a model by President Bush, some retirees saw their benefits drop by 7 percent in 2001. Could that happen here?

Simplification of the income tax It is not completely clear what the president means by this oft-heard campaign promise. Simplification could take several forms, from closing loopholes and streamlining rates (as in the 1986 restructuring), to a complete overhaul resulting in a flat tax. So, which is it?

Making the 2001, 2002 and 2003 tax cuts permanent The president has repeatedly voiced his determination to achieve this goal, but the medium-term cost could be huge. According to the Congressional Budget Office, making the tax cuts permanent would increase the projected federal debt by a third, or about $2.2 trillion, by 2014. Without any indication that the budget gap will eventually close, interest rates could rise as investors here and abroad become leery. Is this change worth the risk?

Tax-free saving accounts The Bush administration proposed an enormous expansion of saving accounts similar to Roth IRA's, where after-tax income funneled into a special portfolio would generate tax-free returns. Individuals would be able to salt away up to $15,000 a year, under the initial proposal. Most families, assuming they opened accounts for their children, would be able to shelter their entire portfolios from taxes within several years. Financial assets generated about 12 percent of individuals' taxable income in 2002. Could the government afford to forgo the resulting revenue? If there are projected benefits for the economy, how big are they?

Abolishing the tax on dividends The White House sought to eliminate this form of "double taxation" in 2003. In the end, Congress cut tax rates on dividends and capital gains, but didn't abolish the taxes. Economists have not seen a marked improvement in household saving as a result of these changes, however, so the argument to go further will not be straightforward. With big deficits already on the way, how would the administration justify revisiting this tax?

Several of the above, except for the changes to Social Security, are likely to find themselves rolled together in a gargantuan tax overhaul. For a start, a big bill would allow for more horse-trading, which may be needed to secure the 60 senators' votes needed to make permanent changes to the tax code. Such a bill would also make a good capstone for a second-term president who is trying to secure his legacy.

A major tax restructuring would throw up some more unanswered questions, though. Virtually all of the proposals above would increase inequality in incomes. Greater inequality can harm the economy, as poor but talented people find it difficult to develop their potentials and follow through on their creative ideas. That could shrink the pool of skilled labor available to run the nation's cutting-edge manufacturers and service providers.

The administration has not showed much eagerness to deal with these issues. "We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," said Peter R. Fisher, then the Under Secretary of the Treasury for Domestic Finance, in an interview in January 2003. By trying to rebalance the tax system to reduce inequality, he added, "you kind of invite a level of complexity back at you that you don't necessarily want."

Perhaps more important, a few of these proposals would tend to shrink the tax base. Should taxes on income from financial assets fall or disappear, the federal government would have to make up the shortfall somewhere. So far, there's little sign in Washington of an inclination to cut spending. In that case, the government would have to borrow much more or raise rates on those Americans who still pay taxes.

Wall Street rallied on Wednesday as the answer to the big question - who would be president for the next four years - came much more quickly than in 2000. But investors and money managers will train their eyes sharper than ever on Washington, looking for the spiraling deficits that would send interest rates sky-high. The president will have to be that much more mindful of the consequences of his actions.


Copyright 2004*The New York Times Company
 
a bit weird, which is why I chose to cut and paste the article rather than writing in my own words. It's sped up again now, so I'll give it a try:

What do I think? Well, I think I'm happier living in a place like Massachusetts than I would be in, say Alabama. Sure I pay higher taxes here, but in I also have a higher standard of living. My state, unlike almost all the heartland "red" states, contributes more to the federal treasury than it gets back; we're not on the federal dole. In return for my higher state taxes, we provide decent Free Care for uninsured people, high quality public education (which provides skilled labor for businesses), a high level of public services such as police (Boston has a very low murder rate for a city its size), and a balanced state budget. That's a deal I'm willing to make--pay a little more in taxes in order to provide a more equal playing field for people of all backgrounds.

In terms of Bush's policies, what I fear most is the widening gap between rich and poor. I know some very wealthy people and I work daily with some very poor people. It bothers me that while the American worker's productivity has increased vastly in the past 30 years, the bulk of that productivity has been pocketed by the CEOs with virtually no change in workers' actual inflation-adjusted salaries in that time. I know enough "trust fund babies" to believe that building a leisure class (via ending the estate tax and reducing taxes on unearned wealth) while leaving minimum-wage workers in a near impossible-to-escape hole (via opposing increasing the minimum wage among other policies) is a bad social idea. I know so many superb people working as hard as they can working 2 jobs each who don't make as much money in a year as some leisure class people make in a week of thumb-twiddling by the pool at the health club--and it really bothers me.

When it comes to the conservative argument that people should keep what they earn, I can certainly appreciate the feelings behind it. No one wants to feel that Robin Hood stole their money. But I also think that people with money might take a look back in their own family histories. Many will find that some government benefit or program was instrumental to their success, whether it was college on the G.I. bill, a WPA project that saved a grandparent during the Great Depression, a period of unemployment payments that got them through a rough time, or simply the availability of educated workers due to public education. Taking an even longer view, it seems to me that many conservatives forget that without government intervention, the middle class might not exist:

The first middle class in the country was the farmers and homesteaders. They were given a giant government boost when they signed up for "40 acres and a mule" or bought land at reduced rates. This could be seen as welfare or government-sponsored entrepreneurship, but either way, it worked. The next middle class was created by government tariff policy--by keeping out cheaper imported goods, we created the post-industrial revolution high paying manufacturing jobs which made possible the classic image of a father breadwinner and mother homemaker. But of course everyone had less "stuff" as a result, since stuff cost more. With the end of tariffs and increased globalization, the only remaining bulwark against the rich simply hoarding all the money for themselves was redistributive taxation--higher rates for wealthy people than for poor. Unfortunately, history shows that capitalism, for all its undeniable benefits, simply does not automatically take care of a number of things, e.g. workers' rights, workers' salaries, or the environment.

I see capitalism as the engine, but believe somone needs to be steering the car, and that "someone" is a benign, secular government that promotes the general public good. I don't mind paying for it (and I'm in a moderately high tax bracket, so I do pay). I prefer that to the Brazil-like rich/poor, gated community, private school divide that we seem to be headed towards.

Mariner
 
you have a link that shows the statistics to support the following statement:

My state, unlike almost all the heartland "red" states, contributes more to the federal treasury than it gets back

Also, do you not think that, since the heartland states contribute to your ability to eat every day that they might need federal monies to support the varacious appetites of the coastlands? I have no idea what the breakdown of that stats are, but you are making a pretty big assumption here.

Also, how do you address the FACT that every time the Feds cut taxes, revenues to the treasury increase? Could it be because your elite friends start hiding their monies overseas?
 
but I've seen the numbers and they're pretty interesting. Many a state that prides itself on rugged independence is in fact depending on the real producers of wealth in this country--New Jersey, California, and others.

Cutting taxes raises revenues? If I recall, the 80s boom followed Reagan being forced to raise taxes in 1983 and the 90s boom followed Bush I's breaking his "no new taxes" pledge. The current round of tax cutting has resulted in economic growth way under what the supply-side people predicted. Bush's own rosiest current estimates (which, hypocritically, assume that his own tax cuts will be phased out) show looming deficits. There's study after study showing that tax cuts to poor people do stimulate the economy (because they spend the money) while tax cuts to wealthy people don't. So Bush is proposing a "simplification" of the tax code that will no doubt shift the burden even further on consumption rather than wealth taxation. The current rate on unearned income is around 10%. Isn't that low enough? Whose going to pay down these massive Republican credit card bills?

When I have a little time this evening I'll go looking for a link for you.

Mariner.
 
thanks, but I believe that the info provided does not go into enough detail. What are the "Red" states doing with the money? Are they supporting FEDERALLY mandated programs? Is the money going into federal programs such as military bases, national parks, support of native Americans, court mandated education for illegal aliens, etc?

What about highway systems that are used to transport goods between coasts, what about federal money for farmers, etc. to grow food for those of you on the coasts, etc? There are WAY too many variables and the stats are not as clear as you would want us to believe. Also, you DO not at all take into account the fact that even within the Blue states, outside of the cities, most of those states were red. So there really is no clear cut way to analyze this information.
 
My nice red state receives the 7th least amount per dollar put in to the Treasury. I think it kind of blows your theory out of the water. I think most of that money from the Treasury might also be money going to Military Bases, most of which are located in red states.
 
Mariner

Horse puckey.

According to the Consolidated Federal Funds Report for FY 2003, Mass ranks right around 11th in the nation for receipt of federal funds in just about all categories.

http://www.census.gov/govs/www/cffr03.html

If you have statistics showing exactly how much Mass contributes to the redistribution of funds, I would love to see them.
 
how much money each state gets--it matters how much money per tax dollar paid. States have different sized populations and different median incomes. The numbers are below. I wish I had time to delve into the meaning of these numbers. My vague understanding is that they derive primarily from agribusiness corporate welfare. Our support of cotton growers, for example, is an international tragedy--entire good countries like Burundi are bankrupted while our average cotton farmer is a millionaire. As the Burundian ambassador said (I'm paraphrasing), "You are such a big powerful country that we can't help but assume that you do this to us on purpose." Why is beef production subsidized? Beef is environmentally unsound and is hardly a necessary staple. Another factor that I'm aware of is regulations that were designed to help expand the suburbs decades ago, which now quite counterproductively damage cities. NYC pays $11 billion per year more in federal taxes than it gets back.

The argument that these states "deserve" money for feeding the "voracious" coasts sounds like an entitlement to me. I thought you guys were against entitlement programs?

There's another set of figures somewhere showing which states are the most productive per capita. There also, the blue states are the engines of the country.

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. D.C. ($6.17)
2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)
2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.68)
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

How about addressing some of the other issues in my original post also? Thanks,

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
How about addressing some of the other issues in my original post also? Thanks,

Mariner.

How about addressing my questions? While some states might be the engine of the country, others are the fuel. An engine ain't worth a shit if it doesn't have anything to run on (i.e. food, fuel, etc.)
 
Mariner said:
how much money each state gets--it matters how much money per tax dollar paid. States have different sized populations and different median incomes. The numbers are below. I wish I had time to delve into the meaning of these numbers. My vague understanding is that they derive primarily from agribusiness corporate welfare. Our support of cotton growers, for example, is an international tragedy--entire good countries like Burundi are bankrupted while our average cotton farmer is a millionaire. As the Burundian ambassador said (I'm paraphrasing), "You are such a big powerful country that we can't help but assume that you do this to us on purpose." Why is beef production subsidized? Beef is environmentally unsound and is hardly a necessary staple. Another factor that I'm aware of is regulations that were designed to help expand the suburbs decades ago, which now quite counterproductively damage cities. NYC pays $11 billion per year more in federal taxes than it gets back.

The argument that these states "deserve" money for feeding the "voracious" coasts sounds like an entitlement to me. I thought you guys were against entitlement programs?

There's another set of figures somewhere showing which states are the most productive per capita. There also, the blue states are the engines of the country.

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. D.C. ($6.17)
2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)
2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.68)
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

How about addressing some of the other issues in my original post also? Thanks,

Mariner.

Ok, I dont normally go off the deep end over crap like this, but you got my dander up.

In essence, what I hear you saying is that the United States should not provide subsidies to US corporations (including the agribusinesses), should not try to control trade with foreign countries, you are against the overhaul of the current tax system and the poor blue states are carrying the red states economically.

Point one...I am from one of those blue states and I for one am sick and tired of paying high taxes; but not because I am against corporate subsidies (I happen to think beef is a necessary staple!). What I am against is paying my hard earned money for a bunch of no working, non productive, lazy slobs who have made a lifestyle of receiving their individual welfare checks and then get angry when I resent them for it. I could give a flying crap about Burundi or any other foriegn country and their trade problems. The Unites States does not force them to sell their products here. They dont like the US market, let them sell their stuff elsewhere. The current tax sytem sucks, in my opinion. The rich pay far more taxes than the poor. That millionaire cotton farmer is going to put a lot more people to work and pay more taxes than that welfare receipient ever will. As for the poor poor oppressed people living in the blue states, if they dont like it there, MOVE!
 
I work with people who are on welfare every day. They have disabilities, mental illnesses, and subnormal intelligence. Why does a beef farmer deserve a subsidy more than one of my patients? In my view, it would be better to let capitalism work and raise the price of beef to its real value.

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
I work with people who are on welfare every day. They have disabilities, mental illnesses, and subnormal intelligence. Why does a beef farmer deserve a subsidy more than one of my patients? In my view, it would be better to let capitalism work and raise the price of beef to its real value.

Mariner.

What would your patients like in the way of a subsidy?
 
Mariner said:
I work with people who are on welfare every day. They have disabilities, mental illnesses, and subnormal intelligence. Why does a beef farmer deserve a subsidy more than one of my patients? In my view, it would be better to let capitalism work and raise the price of beef to its real value.

Mariner.

The beef farmer deserves a subsidy more because he (and any other farmer you care to name) produces the food your patients eat. That millionaire cotton farmer produces the resources to clothe those patients, the patients themselves do neither.

If we do as you suggest and let unrestricted capitalism have free reign, then those patients of yours would never get enough money to feed and clothe them. You yourself would not make enough money to support yourself, never mind take care of your patients.
 
didn't have a subsidy, he would simply have to charge more for his beef, reflecting the true cost of producing it. As a result, a few beef farmers would go out of business, and people would eat less beef. This is simply good capitalism at work. The beef farmers who went out of business are able-bodied people who could find work in a different field.

On the other hand, if you take away the current government welfare to a person with a physical disability, mental illness, or mental retardation, then you'll be tripping over this person as you walk to work. This is not cost-free to society--homeless people don't take care of their health, for example, and then arrive at emergency rooms with advanced health problems. We all pay for this.

You really defend corporate welfare? How about the recent most egregious examples, Bush giving $500,000,000, i.e. $2 for each American, in tax breaks to General Dynamics, and another equal amount to another military contractor. What for? They've just gotten giant contracts and now we're saying, "Oh don't bother paying taxes on that income for the next 10 years." If you hate paying taxes, ask Bush "How come General Dynamics can talk its way out of paying taxes and I can't?"

Individual welfare is a drop in the bucket of federal spending. Payment on the federal debt costs us far more, as does corporate welfare. The famous Chicago "welfare queen" didn't even exist--she is a figment of taxophobic imagination. Sure there is sometimes welfare fraud, but there's fraud everywhere in life, gov't and private worlds both.

Have you looked at Bush's budgets recently? He's never vetoed a single item in spending. Not one. There is more pork in the Bush years than there ever was before, and even if you subtract out the wars on terror and in Iraq, gov't has still grown during Bush's tenure. He's for low taxes but and big government.

But what I'm really looking for from you guys is an explanation of the big picture. I can certainly understand not liking paying taxes. I don't really like paying them either. But you also have to look at what you're buying with them. An honest discussion of this issue would mean saying, "OK, we want to pay less in taxes, so what are we going to cut?" That is not Bush's strategy. His is, "We don't want to pay taxes, so let's just put our bills on the international credit card of deficit spending. We'll let Saudi Arabia and China pay our bills now." That's not an honest discussion. And don't you worry what it means when Saudi Arabia owns a trillion dollars in U.S. debt? No wonder we can't go after them on terrorism--they own us, the way a loan shark owns his victim.

Mariner.
 
You speak of the disabled as they deserve pity when some of them are the most content and happy people in the world as they know what is truly impotant and what is not. Should the government attempt to corrupt them with baubles and bangles that they have found unneccesary to achieve happiness? If the government chooses to do so it will come from the taxes collected from the rich. Who will the government collect money from when the rich are taxed so much that they leave America?
 
Mariner said:
didn't have a subsidy, he would simply have to charge more for his beef, reflecting the true cost of producing it. As a result, a few beef farmers would go out of business, and people would eat less beef. This is simply good capitalism at work. The beef farmers who went out of business are able-bodied people who could find work in a different field.

On the other hand, if you take away the current government welfare to a person with a physical disability, mental illness, or mental retardation, then you'll be tripping over this person as you walk to work. This is not cost-free to society--homeless people don't take care of their health, for example, and then arrive at emergency rooms with advanced health problems. We all pay for this.

You really defend corporate welfare? How about the recent most egregious examples, Bush giving $500,000,000, i.e. $2 for each American, in tax breaks to General Dynamics, and another equal amount to another military contractor. What for? They've just gotten giant contracts and now we're saying, "Oh don't bother paying taxes on that income for the next 10 years." If you hate paying taxes, ask Bush "How come General Dynamics can talk its way out of paying taxes and I can't?"

Individual welfare is a drop in the bucket of federal spending. Payment on the federal debt costs us far more, as does corporate welfare. The famous Chicago "welfare queen" didn't even exist--she is a figment of taxophobic imagination. Sure there is sometimes welfare fraud, but there's fraud everywhere in life, gov't and private worlds both.

Have you looked at Bush's budgets recently? He's never vetoed a single item in spending. Not one. There is more pork in the Bush years than there ever was before, and even if you subtract out the wars on terror and in Iraq, gov't has still grown during Bush's tenure. He's for low taxes but and big government.

But what I'm really looking for from you guys is an explanation of the big picture. I can certainly understand not liking paying taxes. I don't really like paying them either. But you also have to look at what you're buying with them. An honest discussion of this issue would mean saying, "OK, we want to pay less in taxes, so what are we going to cut?" That is not Bush's strategy. His is, "We don't want to pay taxes, so let's just put our bills on the international credit card of deficit spending. We'll let Saudi Arabia and China pay our bills now." That's not an honest discussion. And don't you worry what it means when Saudi Arabia owns a trillion dollars in U.S. debt? No wonder we can't go after them on terrorism--they own us, the way a loan shark owns his victim.

Mariner.

People would eat less beef, true enough. And less chicken and less vegetables and less fruits...because all of those get subsidies. We can go back to the days of yore and each family can have a small garden in their back yard....except most city folk dont have back yards. Not to worry, Burundi will sell you their food stuffs and perhaps because they are such kind comapssionate souls, freely give same foodstuffs to your patients.

Speaking of patients, how many of your patients would survive without that government subsidy you are talking about? Obviously, something has to be done to get those poor people you speak of off the streets...ah for the days of the old county home! Truthfully, I am a cold hearted SOB....if they can't make it...TOUGH! It sucks to be them. When they come to the emergency room, the doc has a choice...treat them for free or let them go. I know what the emergency room is going to do for me...charge as much as they can for my treatment because they know either I can pay for it myself or my insurance can. They have no moral compunction about that!

As for what I buy with my taxes...I would love it if every stinking penny of my tax went to the military and the big corporations. The corporations provide the jobs (not the government, thank you very much) and the military is what keeps those camera toting Japanese and bomb carrying Arabs from over running the country.

As for Bush and the deficit...the whole budget thing is a sham. The government (Democrat or Republican) should be limited by their budget...not on projected income. By that I mean, I have a checking account. There is only so much money in that account. I can spend up to what is there and no more. I cannot write a check based on what I will receive in the future...that is what's known as kiting a check and will get me thrown in jail. Therefore, I have to prioritize what I spend my money on. The government should do the same. In my mind, even if in my utopian little world, tax dollars were spent this way, your patients would not be on the top of my priority list.
 
To get back to a more moderate (and truthfully serious) stance regarding the deficit and the tax structure. I beleive that the income tax should be done away with and replaced with a Federal sales tax. Why? Glad you asked. A sales tax is all encompassing. Every individual is taxed...even those who receive wages under the table or get their money illegally. You buy something, you pay a tax. Luxury items (personal watercraft for example) should be taxed more heavily (that will take care of those rich bastards!). Corporate taxes should be done away with as well as the subsidies for corporations. Let capitalism work. I think all this free trade agreement stuff is crap. Either foriegn consumers will buy our goods or not. If they find American goods too high priced for their tastes. let them buy their stuff elsewhere.

As for the deficit, fine...let's work to pay it off. Make Congress (the guys who really control the purse strings) stick to spending what they receive for funds, not what they are projected to receive ten years from now. The truth of the matter is, there really never was a surplus...all those statisitcs were/are based on projected revenues, not cash in hand. make Congress do their job and prioritize spending based on reality, not utopian ideals.
 

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