Oh My!........isn't this something!

[rightwinger]

On the language thing:

To reside here for more than 3 months, you must enroll in an accredited English course

To obtain permanent residency or citizenship, you must demonstrate 8th-grade master of the English language

If you don't speak the language, you can never integrate and you will never be a part of this society

If you want to move here, you move here to be an American. You simply can't be an American unless you're a part of the American civilization and People. That can't happen if you don't speak the language.

Well, hey... We agree on something!

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

 

[gekaap]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

That's a decision for those countries to each make on their own. But as a matter of decency and personal responsibility, anyone who goes to another country for a decent amount of time should make an effort to learn the language to a functional degree.

Here's a better question, though: Should Americans have to learn a foreign language just to migrate within their own country?

 

[daveman]

Arizona does not exist in a vacuum, and the reality is that it shares a border with a country where the government is unable to control the drug cartels.

Bashing illegals may score political points, but deporting those sending money back to their families only creates more problems.

There are no quick fixes for the 10-15 million illegals already in the country - the costs of apprehending, maintaining custody, operating the judicial system, etc will be astronomical.

Arizona's constitution does not outline any obligation to make life easier for the shithole on their southern border.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

i would think anyone going to a foreign Country to live would want to learn the language......and in Mexico they wont cater to you like we do here with the language thing....if you dont know Spanish tough shit....

 

[Avorysuds]

On the language thing:

To reside here for more than 3 months, you must enroll in an accredited English course

To obtain permanent residency or citizenship, you must demonstrate 8th-grade master of the English language

If you don't speak the language, you can never integrate and you will never be a part of this society

If you want to move here, you move here to be an American. You simply can't be an American unless you're a part of the American civilization and People. That can't happen if you don't speak the language.

Well, hey... We agree on something!

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

Well RW, seeing as you make this shit up as you go along maybe you can look into what happens when "Americans" stay in any country illegally and even work and collect services illegally...

You have a very annoying habit of comparing apples to oranges mixed with a full lack of context.

 

[Flopper]

Many Mexican citizens see the American position on illegal immigration as very hypocritical. Over the last hundred years we have encouraged illegal immigration when labor markets were tight such as during WWII and much of the last half of the 20th century. We have offered amnesty to Mexicans living in the US illegally a number of times. But when unemployment rises or the unions feel that jobs are going to the Mexicans we insist that the law must be obeyed and illegals sent back. During the Great Depression, the mid 50's, the early 70's, and last few years we demand the laws be enforcement and illegals be deported. If in ten years, unemployment should be down to 5% and we again have a shortage of cheap labor, the laws will be ignored again.

First of all, at best our current position is different than before. We've changed our minds. At worst, this argument is question begging. Amnesty has been offered to illegals as part of intended immigration reform with the ultimate hope to greatly reduce the illegal immigration problem. But citing amnesty of illegals as reason or justification to continue to ignore our immigration laws assumes that the illegal immigration was acceptable in the first place.

The relatively recent public interest in the illegal immigration problem did not start with a bad economy. It became a once again hot button issue several years ago, and has been most pursued by the GOP, who tended to view the economic outlook of our country very favorably at the time. Those who support stronger immigration laws and enforcement have regularly maintained their position for decades, through good and bad economies. So saying that Americans are only making an issue of it because of the economy is a horribly flawed argument.

The truth is that Mexicans don't see or care if we are being hypocritical or whatever in our interest in combating illegal immigration. They see us as owing them something. They think we owe them for Texas, AZ, NM, and California. They think that they have some birth right to come into this country and do as they will. They, in short, have the old and naive view that in America is a country with roads paved in gold where everyone is rich. That is, that's what the people coming in think. The people in Mexico who are pushing others to illegally immigrate think that we owe them something, and they think that we're stupid enough to clean up Mexico's trash, and they don't care if they are wrong because they are doing to continue doing what they do anyway because they don't want to deal with their own problems. They'd rather dump their problems on someone else.

In my post, I was expressing the opinions of two Mexicans from Chihuahua that I met while staying at a B&B. Another point they made was that Americans seem to hold the Mexican government responsible for the illegal immigration problem. They felt that it is not the Mexican government's fault that we make laws that we either cannot or choose not to enforce.

I believe our immigration laws need to be changed. Currently, there are estimated to be more than twelve million immigrants here without legal papers. Each year,
an estimated 300,000 or more join that population. These people are coming here to work, to join family members, or both. Many ask: why don’t they just apply to come legally? Some Americans believe that good laws are being violated by bad, selfish, impatient people. That point of view, however, may come from the misunderstanding that legally immigrating to the United States is a relatively easy process. In fact, people trying to come here to work or join family find themselves caught in a hodge-podge of outdated immigration laws and a famously inept and unpredictable immigration bureaucracy. Many rational people are making the decision to risk being in the U.S. illegally in order to work and make money. These are not bad people violating good laws; they are rational people making difficult choices to improve their lives and assist their families.

I support bringing the outdated immigration laws up to date and enforcing them. For those that have lived in the US and are contributing to our economy, they should be made legal residents. Others should be deported.

Mass deportations of 12 million people is not going to happen because it's not practical. Cost of deportation would be huge. While most Americans want to see our boarders secured, the overwhelming majority do not want to see mass deportations. Many cities in the country refuse to cooperate with the INS in deporting illegals. The sensible thing to do, is keep those that contribute to our economy and deport those that don't.

 

[Avorysuds]

Many Mexican citizens see the American position on illegal immigration as very hypocritical. Over the last hundred years we have encouraged illegal immigration when labor markets were tight such as during WWII and much of the last half of the 20th century. We have offered amnesty to Mexicans living in the US illegally a number of times. But when unemployment rises or the unions feel that jobs are going to the Mexicans we insist that the law must be obeyed and illegals sent back. During the Great Depression, the mid 50's, the early 70's, and last few years we demand the laws be enforcement and illegals be deported. If in ten years, unemployment should be down to 5% and we again have a shortage of cheap labor, the laws will be ignored again.

First of all, at best our current position is different than before. We've changed our minds. At worst, this argument is question begging. Amnesty has been offered to illegals as part of intended immigration reform with the ultimate hope to greatly reduce the illegal immigration problem. But citing amnesty of illegals as reason or justification to continue to ignore our immigration laws assumes that the illegal immigration was acceptable in the first place.

The relatively recent public interest in the illegal immigration problem did not start with a bad economy. It became a once again hot button issue several years ago, and has been most pursued by the GOP, who tended to view the economic outlook of our country very favorably at the time. Those who support stronger immigration laws and enforcement have regularly maintained their position for decades, through good and bad economies. So saying that Americans are only making an issue of it because of the economy is a horribly flawed argument.

The truth is that Mexicans don't see or care if we are being hypocritical or whatever in our interest in combating illegal immigration. They see us as owing them something. They think we owe them for Texas, AZ, NM, and California. They think that they have some birth right to come into this country and do as they will. They, in short, have the old and naive view that in America is a country with roads paved in gold where everyone is rich. That is, that's what the people coming in think. The people in Mexico who are pushing others to illegally immigrate think that we owe them something, and they think that we're stupid enough to clean up Mexico's trash, and they don't care if they are wrong because they are doing to continue doing what they do anyway because they don't want to deal with their own problems. They'd rather dump their problems on someone else.

In my post, I was expressing the opinions of two Mexicans from Chihuahua that I met while staying at a B&B. Another point they made was that Americans seem to hold the Mexican government responsible for the illegal immigration problem. They felt that it is not the Mexican government's fault that we make laws that we either cannot or choose not to enforce.

I believe our immigration laws need to be changed. Currently, there are estimated to be more than twelve million immigrants here without legal papers. Each year,
an estimated 300,000 or more join that population. These people are coming here to work, to join family members, or both. Many ask: why don’t they just apply to come legally? Some Americans believe that good laws are being violated by bad, selfish, impatient people. That point of view, however, may come from the misunderstanding that legally immigrating to the United States is a relatively easy process. In fact, people trying to come here to work or join family find themselves caught in a hodge-podge of outdated immigration laws and a famously inept and unpredictable immigration bureaucracy. Many rational people are making the decision to risk being in the U.S. illegally in order to work and make money. These are not bad people violating good laws; they are rational people making difficult choices to improve their lives and assist their families.

I support bringing the outdated immigration laws up to date and enforcing them. For those that have lived in the US and are contributing to our economy, they should be made legal residents. Others should be deported.

Mass deportations of 12 million people is not going to happen because it's not practical. Cost of deportation would be huge. While most Americans want to see our boarders secured, the overwhelming majority do not want to see mass deportations. Many cities in the country refuse to cooperate with the INS in deporting illegals. The sensible thing to do, is keep those that contribute to our economy and deport those that don't.

"No We Can't!"

 

[daveman]

Many Mexican citizens see the American position on illegal immigration as very hypocritical.

Given Mexico's draconian immigration laws, they really don't have anything to complain about.

There is no human right to enter the United States illegally. It's amazing the number of people who don't realize that basic fact.

 

[JBeukema]

On the language thing:

To reside here for more than 3 months, you must enroll in an accredited English course

To obtain permanent residency or citizenship, you must demonstrate 8th-grade master of the English language

If you don't speak the language, you can never integrate and you will never be a part of this society

If you want to move here, you move here to be an American. You simply can't be an American unless you're a part of the American civilization and People. That can't happen if you don't speak the language.

Well, hey... We agree on something!

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

If I plan on becoming a permanent resident, I should learn the language and the society/country has every right to require that to obtain permanent status or citizenship.

I can never truly integrate into Japanese society if I don't learn Japanese.

 

[Flopper]

Many Mexican citizens see the American position on illegal immigration as very hypocritical.

Given Mexico's draconian immigration laws, they really don't have anything to complain about.

There is no human right to enter the United States illegally. It's amazing the number of people who don't realize that basic fact.

I don't think the Mexican government cares one way or the other whether we enforce our laws or not.

If we can't or won't enforce our laws, we should either changer them or repeal them.

 

[rightwinger]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

That's a decision for those countries to each make on their own. But as a matter of decency and personal responsibility, anyone who goes to another country for a decent amount of time should make an effort to learn the language to a functional degree.

Here's a better question, though: Should Americans have to learn a foreign language just to migrate within their own country?

Americans are notorious for refusing to learn other languages.

I could just see the whining if they were forced to learn Chinese or leave the country

 

[rightwinger]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

i would think anyone going to a foreign Country to live would want to learn the language......and in Mexico they wont cater to you like we do here with the language thing....if you dont know Spanish tough shit....

I've been through Mexico

More Mexicans speak english than Americans speak another language

 

[Ernie S.]

Arizona does not exist in a vacuum, and the reality is that it shares a border with a country where the government is unable to control the drug cartels.

Bashing illegals may score political points, but deporting those sending money back to their families only creates more problems.

There are no quick fixes for the 10-15 million illegals already in the country - the costs of apprehending, maintaining custody, operating the judicial system, etc will be astronomical.

Arizona has the right solution. Of course it is unrealistic that we could deport 15 million illegal aliens, but if the rest of the country follows AZ's lead, the aliens will deport themselves. Yup some will stay behind. By then numbers will be low enough so INS deportations of the rest would be reasonable.

 

[gekaap]

In my post, I was expressing the opinions of two Mexicans from Chihuahua that I met while staying at a B&B. Another point they made was that Americans seem to hold the Mexican government responsible for the illegal immigration problem. They felt that it is not the Mexican government's fault that we make laws that we either cannot or choose not to enforce.

I understand that you were just presenting the opinions of others. But I was pointing out the flaws in the ways those people are coming to the decision that it's acceptable to move here illegally. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what Mexicans think of our laws or our position. None of it gives them a justifiable reason to illegally enter the US.

Many ask: why don’t they just apply to come legally? Some Americans believe that good laws are being violated by bad, selfish, impatient people. That point of view, however, may come from the misunderstanding that legally immigrating to the United States is a relatively easy process. In fact, people trying to come here to work or join family find themselves caught in a hodge-podge of outdated immigration laws and a famously inept and unpredictable immigration bureaucracy. Many rational people are making the decision to risk being in the U.S. illegally in order to work and make money. These are not bad people violating good laws; they are rational people making difficult choices to improve their lives and assist their families.

This is the same romantic notion that the pro-open border crowd always tries to portray of illegal immigrants. They talk about the poverty of the people in Mexico, they talk about how illegals risk their lives, etc. They paint the illegal as an innocent person being victimized by enforcement of immigration policies, and as being just an honest, hard working person trying to catch a break. But that doesn't correspond to the facts. It doesn't fit with the fact that many illegals frequently commit welfare fraud, that many illegals purposely have anchor babies for no other reason than to deter deportation or as a means to collect welfare benefits. It does not account for the identity theft associated with obtaining fake documents that they use for no other reason than to eventually obtain welfare benefits like food stamps and section 8 housing while still working under the table. And the alleged difficulties of immigrating legally do not really compare to what it actually takes to immigrate illegally. It's more expensive to do it illegally, because they have to pay off Mexican agents to look the other way, and they usually have to pay smugglers along the way, as well as the costs to get fake documents.

I support bringing the outdated immigration laws up to date and enforcing them. For those that have lived in the US and are contributing to our economy, they should be made legal residents.

See, now this is where it becomes a bit cloudy, because even those who are working and haven't attempted to double dip and also gain welfare benefits don't contribute to our economy. Most of their money usually is sent back home to Mexico, so what happens is that they are dragging down our economy to support Mexico's economy.

Many cities in the country refuse to cooperate with the INS in deporting illegals. The sensible thing to do, is keep those that contribute to our economy and deport those that don't.

Then maybe we should send the military in to squash the rebellion, because municipalities don't have the right to interfere with federal immigration enforcement.

 

[Ernie S.]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

That's a decision for those countries to each make on their own. But as a matter of decency and personal responsibility, anyone who goes to another country for a decent amount of time should make an effort to learn the language to a functional degree.

Here's a better question, though: Should Americans have to learn a foreign language just to migrate within their own country?

Americans are notorious for refusing to learn other languages.

I could just see the whining if they were forced to learn Chinese or leave the country

Geez RW! You couldn't have picked a more appropriate avatar.

 

[gekaap]

I've been through Mexico

More Mexicans speak english than Americans speak another language

There are certain areas and sub groups where the ability to speak English is fairly common. But that doesn't mean much, considering the bastards will still come into this country and expect you to know Spanish. Back when I used to wait tables I've had times when people who could speak perfect English would refuse to let me wait on them because I did not speak Spanish, and they wanted to be waited on in Spanish.

 

[Ernie S.]

These are not bad people violating good laws; .... snip

No. They are criminals, and you wish to reward their criminal behavior and confer the rights enjoyed by citizens on them. I suggest we start out with the right to be punished for committing criminal acts.
Damn it! It just tears up my gut that you think our immigration laws should be changed. Most don't. Get used to it.

 

[Harry Dresden]

The sensible thing to do, is keep those that contribute to our economy and deport those that don't.

and who gets to decide who is and who isnt?......

 

[Harry Dresden]

Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?

That's a decision for those countries to each make on their own. But as a matter of decency and personal responsibility, anyone who goes to another country for a decent amount of time should make an effort to learn the language to a functional degree.

Here's a better question, though: Should Americans have to learn a foreign language just to migrate within their own country?

Americans are notorious for refusing to learn other languages.

I could just see the whining if they were forced to learn Chinese or leave the country

oh give me a break Rw.....i dont know how many people i have delivered mail to over the last 30 years who's job entails them traveling to a non-English speaking Country and these people all learned enough of the Language to get around....and this includes China and Japan......the only Language i hear Americans refusing to learn is Spanish to appease the Latinos here.....THEY should be learning English to appease us.....if not **** em....if they cant find their way around tough shit for them...the Asians sure as hell learn English....

 

[daveman]

Many Mexican citizens see the American position on illegal immigration as very hypocritical.

Given Mexico's draconian immigration laws, they really don't have anything to complain about.

There is no human right to enter the United States illegally. It's amazing the number of people who don't realize that basic fact.

I don't think the Mexican government cares one way or the other whether we enforce our laws or not.

If we can't or won't enforce our laws, we should either changer them or repeal them.

I agree. I think we should enforce them.