Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11

[idb]

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of how.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college. Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college. Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong. And it would happen again, and again, and again. The nuns marked it wrong. Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong? I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right. If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake. But when the next word problem came along? Lather, rinse, repeat.

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

It's a shame alright.
The greatest risk, as I see it, is relying so much on mathemalculating machines that the operator can't even see if an answer is reasonable or not.

Mind you, I can't get the answer to the first problem Sunshine.
Is there something missing...do I need to know the dosage or is that something a nurse would just know?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What are you talking about?
Getting the correct result is the consequence of understanding the process.

No it isn't, getting a correct result is a result of doing the math right.

Doing the maths right?
What does that mean?
Doing calculations maybe?
How do you know the right calculations to use or even how to carry them out correctly?
Learning maths includes knowing how to get to correct conclusion.

But I know you know that.

How do you know what calculations to use? How about the fact that you just learned the formulas last week? Would you consider that a clue, or would you expect the test to cover the formulas you will be getting next week?

It is a math test, you use the stuff you learned in the class. If you want to discuss something sensible that applies to the real world you are going to have to start by admitting the right answer counts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So what you're saying is that you have methods for calculating the right answer?

No, what I am saying is there is more than one way to get the right answer. Calculus was invented to make getting the right answer easier, if we did it your way we would be stuck using an abacus and Roman Numerals.

How so?
You make no sense.

You want me to explain to you how calculus makes getting the right answer easier yet you want to insist that being able to explain how you got the answer is more important than the answer?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No it doesn't.

What if the object is to catch the ball in a bucket sitting on the floor?
You have to place the bucket where you calculate the ball is going to land.
How do you work it out...rote learning...instinct...?

Experience, something you seem to lack.

Riiiiighht.

Experience tells me that catching a ball in a basket is stupid because balls bounce.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong. Big fat F

You might have a hard time grasping this, but English and Math are two different things.

 

[idb]

No it isn't, getting a correct result is a result of doing the math right.

Doing the maths right?
What does that mean?
Doing calculations maybe?
How do you know the right calculations to use or even how to carry them out correctly?
Learning maths includes knowing how to get to correct conclusion.

But I know you know that.

How do you know what calculations to use? How about the fact that you just learned the formulas last week? Would you consider that a clue, or would you expect the test to cover the formulas you will be getting next week?

It is a math test, you use the stuff you learned in the class. If you want to discuss something sensible that applies to the real world you are going to have to start by admitting the right answer counts.

You're dead right of course.
You will use the formulae that you learned in class.
That's why it's important to learn those formulae in class and your comprehension of the appropriateness and application is tested.
Where are we disagreeing again?

 

[idb]

No, what I am saying is there is more than one way to get the right answer. Calculus was invented to make getting the right answer easier, if we did it your way we would be stuck using an abacus and Roman Numerals.

How so?
You make no sense.

You want me to explain to you how calculus makes getting the right answer easier yet you want to insist that being able to explain how you got the answer is more important than the answer?

I can't recall insisting any such thing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You see no value in understanding process rather than simply rote learning of facts?

I would want the person who is spending hundreds of thousands of my dollars building a house to have had some 'rote teaching of facts.'

Sure, as I said above, you need to know the basics.
But what if each piece of timber delivered is not the exact required length?
How can he work out what length to cut it to to ensure that everything is kept square (or whatever angle is required)?

Generally, you look at the plans and read the numbers somebody else figured out. Then, when you know it won't work because the guy who did all the calculating learned that it was more important to understand the process then get the right answer, you just build it the way it is supposed to be built.

The really stupid part I see in your argument is your insistence that, unless you understand the process, you can't get the answer. If it actually worked that way it would take a degree in mathematics to wire a house because it would take that level of education before you describe the way an alternating current exists as various levels of current based on the point of its cycle, and how that quite real square root of negative one can kill you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Doing the maths right?
What does that mean?
Doing calculations maybe?
How do you know the right calculations to use or even how to carry them out correctly?
Learning maths includes knowing how to get to correct conclusion.

But I know you know that.

How do you know what calculations to use? How about the fact that you just learned the formulas last week? Would you consider that a clue, or would you expect the test to cover the formulas you will be getting next week?

It is a math test, you use the stuff you learned in the class. If you want to discuss something sensible that applies to the real world you are going to have to start by admitting the right answer counts.

You're dead right of course.
You will use the formulae that you learned in class.
That's why it's important to learn those formulae in class and your comprehension of the appropriateness and application is tested.
Where are we disagreeing again?

We disagree because I insist that the right answer counts.

 

[idb]

I would want the person who is spending hundreds of thousands of my dollars building a house to have had some 'rote teaching of facts.'

Sure, as I said above, you need to know the basics.
But what if each piece of timber delivered is not the exact required length?
How can he work out what length to cut it to to ensure that everything is kept square (or whatever angle is required)?

Generally, you look at the plans and read the numbers somebody else figured out. Then, when you know it won't work because the guy who did all the calculating learned that it was more important to understand the process then get the right answer, you just build it the way it is supposed to be built.

The really stupid part I see in your argument is your insistence that, unless you understand the process, you can't get the answer. If it actually worked that way it would take a degree in mathematics to wire a house because it would take that level of education before you describe the way an alternating current exists as various levels of current based on the point of its cycle, and how that quite real square root of negative one can kill you.

That isn't my insistence at all.

My insistence is that there's value in understanding rather than just reciting.

 

[idb]

How do you know what calculations to use? How about the fact that you just learned the formulas last week? Would you consider that a clue, or would you expect the test to cover the formulas you will be getting next week?

It is a math test, you use the stuff you learned in the class. If you want to discuss something sensible that applies to the real world you are going to have to start by admitting the right answer counts.

You're dead right of course.
You will use the formulae that you learned in class.
That's why it's important to learn those formulae in class and your comprehension of the appropriateness and application is tested.
Where are we disagreeing again?

We disagree because I insist that the right answer counts.

Then there's no disagreement at all.
I suspect the real reason we disagree is because I'm debating against a devil's advocate.
Fair enough.

 

[Zoom-boing]

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of how.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college. Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college. Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong. And it would happen again, and again, and again. The nuns marked it wrong. Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong? I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right. If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake. But when the next word problem came along? Lather, rinse, repeat.

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

I didn't read any further in the thread. Is the answer to the first problem: the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school? Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?

 

[dilloduck]

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

I didn't read any further in the thread. Is the answer to the first problem: the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school? Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?

damn ZB----what an effort ! You can be my nurse any day. To hell with the IM and ml stuff.

 

[Zoom-boing]

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

I didn't read any further in the thread. Is the answer to the first problem: the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school? Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?

damn ZB----what an effort ! You can be my nurse any day. To hell with the IM and ml stuff.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

I didn't read any further in the thread. Is the answer to the first problem: the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school? Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?

You don't need to know that IM stands for intramuscular, all you need to do is figure out that 1.5 ml is equal to 150 mg.

 

[skye]

2+2 is not 5


that's all I know!

Obama's maths are stupid!

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

2+2 is not 5


that's all I know!

Obama's maths are stupid!

Hey look! I tot of sometin tooped! 'dat mean Obamadummy tooopeddd!!! ARRGHH!!!!! hah ha ha! Obamadummy tooped! ha ha ha!

 

[idb]

2+2 is not 5


that's all I know!

Obama's maths are stupid!

What's wrong with Obama's maths?

 

[Sunshine]

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?

I didn't read any further in the thread. Is the answer to the first problem: the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school? Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?

You don't need to know that IM stands for intramuscular, all you need to do is figure out that 1.5 ml is equal to 150 mg.

Ding ding ding...........we have a winner!

 

[Moonglow]

Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11

Quick: what’s 3 x 4?

If you said 11 — or, hell, if you said 7, pi, or infinity squared — that’s just fine under the Common Core, the new national curriculum that the Obama administration will impose on American public school students this fall.

In a pretty amazing YouTube video, Amanda August, a curriculum coordinator in a suburb of Chicago called Grayslake, explains that getting the right answer in math just doesn’t matter as long as kids can explain the necessarily faulty reasoning they used to get to that wrong answer.

“Even if they said, ’3 x 4 was 11,’ if they were able to explain their reasoning and explain how they came up with their answer really in, umm, words and oral explanation, and they showed it in the picture but they just got the final number wrong, we’re really more focused on the how,” August says in the video.

When someone in the audience (presumably a parent, but it’s not certain) asks if teachers will be, you know, correcting students who don’t know rudimentary arithmetic instantly, August makes another meandering, longwinded statement.

Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11 [VIDEO]


How about teaching the subject??? Is that too hard to ask for? Can we please adopt one of the top 5 countries educational systems. Thank you.

It's called Logic and the text is trying to get you to understand truth in expressions, such as math, language, etc., catching on yet?