NRA post debate ad released...

[Missourian]

First of all, that is not Arizona law. And secondly all they have to say they didn't know the person they transfer the gun they just bought was not buying it for personal use in the state. There is no limit on how many long guns can be bought in Arizona and there is no registry reporting who is buying them in Arizona.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/02/20/20110220arizona-rifle-sale-law.html

Loophole Cited

The ATF in December sought to mandate reporting requirements of long-gun sales in the four Southwestern border states of Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas to help reduce guns going to Mexico. The mandate mirrored federal handgun regulations, which require dealers to notify state and federal law enforcement anytime a person buys two or more guns in the same week. It would not prohibit sales to anyone who passes the required background check.

But earlier this month, following strong opposition from more than a dozen U.S. senators, the White House budget office nixed the mandate. It said the issue did not rise to an emergency under the law.

The National Rifle Association praised the decision.

"Had this measure gone into effect, it would have resulted in a registry of law-abiding gun owners and it would also have placed unnecessary burdens on law-abiding firearms retailers," Chris Cox, executive director of the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, said in an e-mail.

Former Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard says he supported the mandate, in large part because Mexico authorities in meetings pleaded with U.S. officials to stop the flow of U.S. guns into Mexico.

"It is a loophole that needs to be closed if we are at all serious about stopping the flood of guns going to Mexico," Goddard said. "If someone is buying four or five long guns of any version, this seems to be sufficiently unusual circumstances that it should be reported."

That's federal law Ed.

It is illegal to sell a firearm to anyone not a resident of your state.

That means it is your responsibility to ensure the buyer is a resident, by asking for an id.

I gifted a pistol to my Dad, a Florida resident...I live in Missouri.

I had to, by law, transfer the weapon to a Federal Firearm License holder in Missouri, he shipped it to a FFL in Florida, my Father had to have an instant backround check, then the Florida FFL Transfered the pistol to my Dad.



To do it any other way is illegal. Period.

Link to the law:

18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute

"I didn't know" is no excuse.

The law for handguns does not apply to rifles!!!!

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...1/06/18/20110618arizona-gun-laws-roberts.html

That's because in Arizona, you can buy as many assault weapons as you want. And while gun dealers are required by federal law to report multiple handgun sales, you can buy an arsenal of Uzis and there is no requirement that law enforcement be notified.

Which is perhaps why the cartels consider Arizona the shopping center of choice for all their war-weaponry needs.

Read the law Ed...no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, the federal statute covers ALL firearms.

It is ILLEGAL to sell, trade, gift, or barter ANY firearm to any person not a citizen of your state.

I gave you the link, and here it is in black and white, for the second time.

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

Meaning ANY Individual who sells, trades, gifts, transports or delivers ANY FIREARM purchased in Arizona to and Mexican national...they have committed a felony...end of discussion.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

NRA -- ONE VOTE - YouTube​

In his own words. It doesn't get much more clear cut.

Very few people actually give a shit what the NRA has to say, including most gun owners.

 

[Cheddarmelon]

There is no other way to interpret "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Why shall that right not be infringed? Because a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state.

What might that militia be called upon to do? Fight a foreign invader, or a tyrannical government perhaps?

It would probably be a good idea if the arms stipulated were of a type that were at least similar to those of a professional army.

Extrapolated.

and the average joe sixpack getting a bunch of guns with no oversight really seems like a "well regulated militia" to you?

that's patently absurd.

Seems to be working pretty well so far...200,000,000 legally owned firearms...at a minimum, 199,980,000 are being used responsibly, without oversight.

That's a huge number.

There are only 130 million more citizen than that in the entire country.

You really think that's a responsible point of view?

Look at the Colorado shootings. I mean, yeah... some people died... but look at the people who didn't!

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

There is no other way to interpret "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Why shall that right not be infringed? Because a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state.

What might that militia be called upon to do? Fight a foreign invader, or a tyrannical government perhaps?

It would probably be a good idea if the arms stipulated were of a type that were at least similar to those of a professional army.

Extrapolated.

and the average joe sixpack getting a bunch of guns with no oversight really seems like a "well regulated militia" to you?

that's patently absurd.

Seems to be working pretty well so far...200,000,000 legally owned firearms...at a minimum, 199,980,000 are being used responsibly, without oversight.

That's a huge number.

There are only 130 million more citizen than that in the entire country.

I'm not quite sure how registration laws and background checks don't qualify as a form of oversight.

 

[edthecynic]

That's federal law Ed.

It is illegal to sell a firearm to anyone not a resident of your state.

That means it is your responsibility to ensure the buyer is a resident, by asking for an id.

I gifted a pistol to my Dad, a Florida resident...I live in Missouri.

I had to, by law, transfer the weapon to a Federal Firearm License holder in Missouri, he shipped it to a FFL in Florida, my Father had to have an instant backround check, then the Florida FFL Transfered the pistol to my Dad.



To do it any other way is illegal. Period.

Link to the law:

18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute

"I didn't know" is no excuse.

The law for handguns does not apply to rifles!!!!

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...1/06/18/20110618arizona-gun-laws-roberts.html

That's because in Arizona, you can buy as many assault weapons as you want. And while gun dealers are required by federal law to report multiple handgun sales, you can buy an arsenal of Uzis and there is no requirement that law enforcement be notified.

Which is perhaps why the cartels consider Arizona the shopping center of choice for all their war-weaponry needs.

Read the law Ed...no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, the federal statute covers ALL firearms.

It is ILLEGAL to sell, trade, gift, or barter ANY firearm to any person not a citizen of your state.

I gave you the link, and here it is in black and white, for the second time.

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

Meaning ANY Individual who sells, trades, gifts, transports or delivers ANY FIREARM purchased in Arizona to and Mexican national...they have committed a felony...end of discussion.

In arizona you can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check, so "I didn't know" is perfectly valid in Arizona. Furthermore there are plenty of Mexican Americans in Arizona, so how is a private citizen to know if someone is a Mexican American or a Mexican national when no background check is required.

Thanks to the NRA, the guns that killed Brian Terry were bought and sold perfectly legally.

 

[Missourian]

and the average joe sixpack getting a bunch of guns with no oversight really seems like a "well regulated militia" to you?

that's patently absurd.

Seems to be working pretty well so far...200,000,000 legally owned firearms...at a minimum, 199,980,000 are being used responsibly, without oversight.

That's a huge number.

There are only 130 million more citizen than that in the entire country.

You really think that's a responsible point of view?

Look at the Colorado shootings. I mean, yeah... some people died... but look at the people who didn't!

Absolutely.

You are advocating revoking the constitutional rights of the overwhelming majority of responsible gun owners based on the actions of a miniscule minority of bad actors.

Take it a step further, we know it is possible that any American could conceivably commit murder.

We know it because a small minority of Americans have committed murder.

So, using your logic...we should, in the name of safety and security, incarcerate all our citizens.

330,000,000 Americans should give up their rights because of 30,000 murderers.

See, everyone is safe, you did it, WTG.

 

[Missourian]

The law for handguns does not apply to rifles!!!!

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...1/06/18/20110618arizona-gun-laws-roberts.html

That's because in Arizona, you can buy as many assault weapons as you want. And while gun dealers are required by federal law to report multiple handgun sales, you can buy an arsenal of Uzis and there is no requirement that law enforcement be notified.

Which is perhaps why the cartels consider Arizona the shopping center of choice for all their war-weaponry needs.

Read the law Ed...no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, the federal statute covers ALL firearms.

It is ILLEGAL to sell, trade, gift, or barter ANY firearm to any person not a citizen of your state.

I gave you the link, and here it is in black and white, for the second time.

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

Meaning ANY Individual who sells, trades, gifts, transports or delivers ANY FIREARM purchased in Arizona to and Mexican national...they have committed a felony...end of discussion.

In arizona you can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check, so "I didn't know" is perfectly valid in Arizona. Furthermore there are plenty of Mexican Americans in Arizona, so how is a private citizen to know when no background check is required.

Thanks to the NRA, the guns that killed Brian Terry were bought and sold perfectly legally.

If you are a resident of the state...if you are not, both buyer and seller have committed a felony.

You can keep swinging as long as you like, but you will never get an Arizona gun into a Mexican hand legally...therefore your original post is bullshit.

 

[Cheddarmelon]

Seems to be working pretty well so far...200,000,000 legally owned firearms...at a minimum, 199,980,000 are being used responsibly, without oversight.

That's a huge number.

There are only 130 million more citizen than that in the entire country.

You really think that's a responsible point of view?

Look at the Colorado shootings. I mean, yeah... some people died... but look at the people who didn't!

Absolutely.

You are advocating revoking the constitutional rights of the overwhelming majority of responsible gun owners based on the actions of a miniscule minority of bad actors.

Take it a step further, we know it is possible that any American could conceivably commit murder.

We know it because a small minority of Americans have committed murder.

So, using your logic...we should, in the name of safety and security, incarcerate all our citizens.

330,000,000 Americans should give up their rights because of 30,000 murderers.

See, everyone is safe, you did it, WTG.

I do not suggest taking away peoples rights. I suggest properly managing them.

 

[Missourian]

NRA -- ONE VOTE - YouTube​

In his own words. It doesn't get much more clear cut.

Very few people actually give a shit what the NRA has to say, including most gun owners.

Keep dreaming.

 

[Cheddarmelon]

NRA -- ONE VOTE - YouTube​

In his own words. It doesn't get much more clear cut.

Very few people actually give a shit what the NRA has to say, including most gun owners.

Keep dreaming.

You're right.... there ARE a ton of people with only 3/4 of a brain stem, lovingly stroking their glocks and cocks when the next issue of "Gunz are Grate" comes out.

 

[edthecynic]

Read the law Ed...no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, the federal statute covers ALL firearms.

It is ILLEGAL to sell, trade, gift, or barter ANY firearm to any person not a citizen of your state.

I gave you the link, and here it is in black and white, for the second time.

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

Meaning ANY Individual who sells, trades, gifts, transports or delivers ANY FIREARM purchased in Arizona to and Mexican national...they have committed a felony...end of discussion.

In arizona you can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check, so "I didn't know" is perfectly valid in Arizona. Furthermore there are plenty of Mexican Americans in Arizona, so how is a private citizen to know when no background check is required.

Thanks to the NRA, the guns that killed Brian Terry were bought and sold perfectly legally.

If you are a resident of the state...if you are not, both buyer and seller have committed a felony.

You can keep swinging as long as you like, but you will never get an Arizona gun into a Mexican hand legally...therefore your original post is bullshit.

Again, with no background check required there is no way to know who you are selling to. The proof is the thousands of guns that get from Arizona to Mexico thanks to the NRA.

 

[Missourian]

You really think that's a responsible point of view?

Look at the Colorado shootings. I mean, yeah... some people died... but look at the people who didn't!

Absolutely.

You are advocating revoking the constitutional rights of the overwhelming majority of responsible gun owners based on the actions of a miniscule minority of bad actors.

Take it a step further, we know it is possible that any American could conceivably commit murder.

We know it because a small minority of Americans have committed murder.

So, using your logic...we should, in the name of safety and security, incarcerate all our citizens.

330,000,000 Americans should give up their rights because of 30,000 murderers.

See, everyone is safe, you did it, WTG.

I do not suggest taking away peoples rights. I suggest properly managing them.

Managing is just another word for infringing.


But, for the sale of argument, let's forget rights for a moment.

10,300 innocent Americans are killed by drunk drivers every year.

This doesn't count injuries, alcohol poisonings, alcoholism related suicides...etc.etc.etc.

Let's say the statistics are very similar to firearms.

Since alcohol serves no necessary purpose, it's obvious that the solution is prohibition.

Correct?

I mean, your overarching goal it's safety and security...saving lives.

So 200,000,000 Americans drink responsibly, the minority that drives drunk and kills people ruins it for everyone, as alcohol is not constitutionally protected.

Too bad.

 

[Cheddarmelon]

Absolutely.

You are advocating revoking the constitutional rights of the overwhelming majority of responsible gun owners based on the actions of a miniscule minority of bad actors.

Take it a step further, we know it is possible that any American could conceivably commit murder.

We know it because a small minority of Americans have committed murder.

So, using your logic...we should, in the name of safety and security, incarcerate all our citizens.

330,000,000 Americans should give up their rights because of 30,000 murderers.

See, everyone is safe, you did it, WTG.

I do not suggest taking away peoples rights. I suggest properly managing them.

Managing is just another word for infringing.


But, for the sale of argument, let's forget rights for a moment.

10,300 innocent Americans are killed by drunk drivers every year.

This doesn't count injuries, alcohol poisonings, alcoholism related suicides...etc.etc.etc.

Let's say the statistics are very similar to firearms.

Since alcohol serves no necessary purpose, it's obvious that the solution is prohibition.

Correct?

I mean, your overarching goal it's safety and security...saving lives.

So 200,000,000 Americans drink responsibly, the minority that drives drunk and kills people ruins it for everyone, as alcohol is not constitutionally protected.

Too bad.

I've seen this strawman offered 1000 times, and it remains no less releveant than it did the first time an NRA hack spewed it.

 

[Missourian]

In arizona you can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check, so "I didn't know" is perfectly valid in Arizona. Furthermore there are plenty of Mexican Americans in Arizona, so how is a private citizen to know when no background check is required.

Thanks to the NRA, the guns that killed Brian Terry were bought and sold perfectly legally.

If you are a resident of the state...if you are not, both Yy buyer and seller have committed a felony.

You can keep swinging as long as you like, but you will never get an Arizona gun into a Mexican hand legally...therefore your original post is bullshit.

Again, with no background check required there is no way to know who you are selling to. The proof is the thousands of guns that get from Arizona to Mexico thanks to the NRA.

Sure there is...you ask them to prove that they are residents. That is your responsibility under the law...out you, the seller fail to do so and sell a firearm to a Mexican, you have broken the law, and so have they.

Let me reminds you of your original assertion that the NRA helped make out LEGAL so sell Arizona rifles to Mexican drug lords.

That is 100% false.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make that statement true.

It is illegal for an individual to sell an Arizona rifle to a Mexican national.

 

[Missourian]

I do not suggest taking away peoples rights. I suggest properly managing them.

Managing is just another word for infringing.


But, for the sale of argument, let's forget rights for a moment.

10,300 innocent Americans are killed by drunk drivers every year.

This doesn't count injuries, alcohol poisonings, alcoholism related suicides...etc.etc.etc.

Let's say the statistics are very similar to firearms.

Since alcohol serves no necessary purpose, it's obvious that the solution is prohibition.

Correct?

I mean, your overarching goal it's safety and security...saving lives.

So 200,000,000 Americans drink responsibly, the minority that drives drunk and kills people ruins it for everyone, as alcohol is not constitutionally protected.

Too bad.

I've seen this strawman offered 1000 times, and it remains no less releveant than it did the first time an NRA hack spewed it.

Deflection.


Try again.


Specifically, how is this different.

 

[Cheddarmelon]

Managing is just another word for infringing.


But, for the sale of argument, let's forget rights for a moment.

10,300 innocent Americans are killed by drunk drivers every year.

This doesn't count injuries, alcohol poisonings, alcoholism related suicides...etc.etc.etc.

Let's say the statistics are very similar to firearms.

Since alcohol serves no necessary purpose, it's obvious that the solution is prohibition.

Correct?

I mean, your overarching goal it's safety and security...saving lives.

So 200,000,000 Americans drink responsibly, the minority that drives drunk and kills people ruins it for everyone, as alcohol is not constitutionally protected.

Too bad.

I've seen this strawman offered 1000 times, and it remains no less releveant than it did the first time an NRA hack spewed it.

Deflection.


Try again.


Specifically, how is this different.

Beer is not designed to kill.

 

[Missourian]

Very few people actually give a shit what the NRA has to say, including most gun owners.

Keep dreaming.

You're right.... there ARE a ton of people with only 3/4 of a brain stem, lovingly stroking their glocks and cocks when the next issue of "Gunz are Grate" comes out.

Screw Glocks...1911 all the way.

 

[edthecynic]

If you are a resident of the state...if you are not, both Yy buyer and seller have committed a felony.

You can keep swinging as long as you like, but you will never get an Arizona gun into a Mexican hand legally...therefore your original post is bullshit.

Again, with no background check required there is no way to know who you are selling to. The proof is the thousands of guns that get from Arizona to Mexico thanks to the NRA.

Sure there is...you ask them to prove that they are residents. That is your responsibility under the law...out you, the seller fail to do so and sell a firearm to a Mexican, you have broken the law, and so have they.

Let me reminds you of your original assertion that the NRA helped make out LEGAL so sell Arizona rifles to Mexican drug lords.

That is 100% false.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make that statement true.

It is illegal for an individual to sell an Arizona rifle to a Mexican national.

No background check is required in Arizona thanks to the NRA.

Governor defends Arizona law on gun show sales - The Verde Independent - Cottonwood, Arizona

PHOENIX -- Gov. Jan Brewer is defending Arizona laws that allow the sale of firearms at gun shows without a background check and forbid cities from imposing such requirements.

 

[Missourian]

I've seen this strawman offered 1000 times, and it remains no less releveant than it did the first time an NRA hack spewed it.

Deflection.


Try again.


Specifically, how is this different.

Beer is not designed to kill.

Weak...your goal is to save lives, remember.

Designed or not, the result is death.

I thought you were serious, evidently not.

 

[Missourian]

Again, with no background check required there is no way to know who you are selling to. The proof is the thousands of guns that get from Arizona to Mexico thanks to the NRA.

Sure there is...you ask them to prove that they are residents. That is your responsibility under the law...out you, the seller fail to do so and sell a firearm to a Mexican, you have broken the law, and so have they.

Let me reminds you of your original assertion that the NRA helped make out LEGAL so sell Arizona rifles to Mexican drug lords.

That is 100% false.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make that statement true.

It is illegal for an individual to sell an Arizona rifle to a Mexican national.

No background check is required in Arizona thanks to the NRA.

Governor defends Arizona law on gun show sales - The Verde Independent - Cottonwood, Arizona

PHOENIX -- Gov. Jan Brewer is defending Arizona laws that allow the sale of firearms at gun shows without a background check and forbid cities from imposing such requirements.

Have you given up on selling to Mexicans legally, cuz that's what we were discussing Ed.