Now I Know How Christians Feel

[emilynghiem]

Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias,Cherry Picking.

See also: Argument from Miracles, Why won’t god heal amputees? Spontaneous Remission of Disease, The problem with anecdotes (a must watch).

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” – Carl Sagan

“Elite athletes make first place, strange shapes appear on toast and some people narrowly escape death, but amputated limbs never regrow, mountains never move and food never spontaneously appears in front of the hundreds of children that starve to death each hour.” – Anonymous

Disagree sealybobo
1. First of all miracles do not need to contradict science.
Life can be considered a miracle we cannot fully explain. What drives life toward preserving more life?
We don't know. Thus it is a miracle that life begets life if we cannot explain this, yet it is consistent with science.

2. Secondly, if you want to call even "miraculous" changes that occurred NATURALLY
as demonstrations of how divine/life energy works,
there is PLENTY of proof that this has happened in many instances and forms.

Again, I have long pointed out the benefits of studying and proving how Spiritual Healing works.
There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured of Rheumatoid Arthritis,
going from crippled and bedridden in pain, to walking normally with no more symptoms and without using any
medication. And cases of people cured of "incureable" Schizophrenia who restored their minds and free will,
and are no longer hijacked by demonic personalities and voices that took over their lives and held them hostage in their own bodies. Not to mention testimonies of people cured of deadly addictions almost instantly with no withdrawal symptoms,
or healed of terminal diseases where the doctors can't explain why they are in perfect health, or even people who were either dying or declared dead but recovered with no brain or organ damage.

The power of LIFE to heal NATURALLY is the same process and power as God represents.

So this has been demonstrated, and is still faith based at the same time.
It is miraculous in some cases, where it cannot be explained, yet consistent with science at the same time.

You keep framing things as either/or, but the truth can be "all of the above."
Both faith and reason are satisfied, and not sacrificed or compromised one for the other.
Both science and religion can describe the same process and be consistent with each other.
What is natural can be described as spiritual, what is spiritual can be explained in natural terms.

There does not have to be contradiction or conflicts we cannot solve.

The process in life is what it is, and we can use both science and religious terms to explain it.
And it is STILL the same process that all humans go through, it is universal for all humanity to grow to maturity,
but at the same time each person has their own version of this according to their circumstances, so it is unique too!

As soon as we can forgive our differences over these things,
we can better see how they fit together as complements and not be in conflict as we feared.

Thanks for sharing here and I look forward to finishing this journey together,
with each person contributing valuable insights that are all important to reach a mutual understanding of the whole.

Take care and Thank you!

 

[emilynghiem]

As someone who is too scared to openly show my faith, or even learn more about it for fear my faith will be discovered by those who will mock it, I can certainly understand how Christians feel when they are jeered and mocked for their beliefs.
While most of the so called Christians who attended the rally on Saturday are certainly not Christians (Jesus would be appalled at their hatred), there are many who have shown that they are ready to welcome in people of all faiths, which is pleasing - its a lot of loud mouthed fools that just make it so hard for me to feel welcome.

Today I have never felt so rejected and unwanted. I cannot imagine what Christians have had to deal with when they cop shit from atheists.

How do you guys manage to deal with the hatred?

I'm willing to bet that most people who are against having a mosque built in your town are Christians. Atheists are sick and tired of being told they are wrong or that they will burn in hell. Would you not say that is also being jeered and mocked or can you only see things from one perspective. If someone tells me they are religious I will not mock them or jeer them. If someone tells me that Atheism is a religion or that evolution is not true then yes I will ridicule or mock them for being stupid. Don't forget that atheists never protest religious places of worship going up or being built. it is other religious people that do that.

Your attempt at a similiar analogy is lost. All groups including christians and atheists are mocked, jeered and ridiculed yet the only group you decided to relate to is the same one that tries to prevent you from building mosques. You may not call them christians because of their actions but they are. (Remember what Ghandi said of christians.)

The so called Christians who want to beat you with a bible are not practicing the teachings of Jesus. They use Christianity as an excuse to spread hate. I'm a Christian, but I'm not mad about it. The bible thumpers give Christianity a bad name just like the terrorists give Muslims a bad name. Possibly not as bad, but still bad enough.

Whenever Fundamentalists are involved, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Taoist, Hindus or whatever, compassion, understanding, open hearts and open minds are no where to be found.

Dear Nosmo King
That's where forgiveness can transform people.
Forgiveness can never be forced, or it causes the opposite reaction.
It can be inspired by forgiving others first, so they open up and forgive and heal.

Some of the most effective advocates for forgiveness and healing
were the hardest people to reach, so once they understood, they could help others make that same change.

Forgiveness heals. Unforgiveness kills -- relationships, humanity, society.
We need more healing not more killing.
The more we open up to receiving healing,
this inspires others to do the same. So it multiplies.
Eventually the good overcomes the bad and all suffering will come to its end.

 

[sealybobo]

Atheist oath:

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you nothing?

How many theists swear to god and lie?

In fact, even the most devout Christians lie to god a lot!

Kentucky clerk denying licenses to gay couples has married four times

I'm sure when the preacher said, "do you swear to take this man for better or worse till death so help you god" she said yes. She's a liar.

 

[emilynghiem]

“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.” – Lawrence Krauss

sealybobo
Jesus represents Justice.
Man does not live by bread alone, and is not just the physical particles that make up our bodies and world.

Socially and spiritually we enjoy life based on RELATIONSHIPS with other people.
That's not just physical bread and water, but calls for lasting peace and justice
in order for society to be sustainable and ethical, focusing on constructive contributions and growth.

If you believe in seeing JUSTICE in the world, that is what it means to seek Jesus.
Sure it involves physically correcting wrongs in the real world, but it starts with a vision of justice in our hearts first.

All humanity has some faith in Justice, and this drive toward Justice either unites us
or breaks us, tripping over our own issues we need to resolve first
in the peacemaking process. Either way, we are still driven toward Justice
which is an abstract principle on a higher level BEFORE it is manifested in the physical mechanics of the world we live in.

 

[emilynghiem]

Atheist oath:

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you nothing?

How many theists swear to god and lie?

In fact, even the most devout Christians lie to god a lot!

Kentucky clerk denying licenses to gay couples has married four times

I'm sure when the preacher said, "do you swear to take this man for better or worse till death so help you god" she said yes. She's a liar.

All human faults are forgiveable.
The one unforgiveable sin is "unforgiveness" because it blocks corrections from entering in.
All things are resolvable and can be healed from
as long as we FORGIVE first.

sealybobo I cannot stress enough how impossible it is to be fair
if we judge people by who did what right or wrong. Why? because we
are all born into different circumstances. It would be too easy to point to
someone who did worse and think we are better because we didn't do that.
So ;people would NEVER BE EQUAL that way, there are always going to
be people who did better or worse than others, and there's no way to judge by that.
We have the mess we have now, because people judge by material conditions.

What I find is more important than who messed up what to which degree,
is what degree we are willing to FORGIVE these messes.

Then we can be fair.

Those more willing to FORGIVE open themselves up to receive rewards
or compensation to make up for the wrongs they suffered.

Those not willing to forgive will SUFFER emotionally to the degree of unforgiveness.

So people with less pains to forgive, also have less suffering and less compensation
when those wrongs are corrected.

People with more troubles to forgive and work through also receive greater rewards
from those greater struggles.

In this way, there is justice in the world.
Not based on how much wrong each person did and trying to compare that.
But looking at how much forgiveness heals and brings about positive changes,
and comparing the results that way. That is fair to all people, who have relatively
equal struggles to deal with. The more we forgive, the more we receive,
so it comes out even, although each person has different situations and degrees
of problems and challenges to go through.

The problems will not be equal for all people, but the process of solving
them will be universal to all and relatively equal at the same time,
giving each person a unique role and realm of responsibility that is "proportional"
to the pluses and minuses of each situation.

 

[sealybobo]

Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias,Cherry Picking.

See also: Argument from Miracles, Why won’t god heal amputees? Spontaneous Remission of Disease, The problem with anecdotes (a must watch).

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” – Carl Sagan

“Elite athletes make first place, strange shapes appear on toast and some people narrowly escape death, but amputated limbs never regrow, mountains never move and food never spontaneously appears in front of the hundreds of children that starve to death each hour.” – Anonymous

Disagree sealybobo
1. First of all miracles do not need to contradict science.
Life can be considered a miracle we cannot fully explain. What drives life toward preserving more life?
We don't know. Thus it is a miracle that life begets life if we cannot explain this, yet it is consistent with science.

2. Secondly, if you want to call even "miraculous" changes that occurred NATURALLY
as demonstrations of how divine/life energy works,
there is PLENTY of proof that this has happened in many instances and forms.

Again, I have long pointed out the benefits of studying and proving how Spiritual Healing works.
There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured of Rheumatoid Arthritis,
going from crippled and bedridden in pain, to walking normally with no more symptoms and without using any
medication. And cases of people cured of "incureable" Schizophrenia who restored their minds and free will,
and are no longer hijacked by demonic personalities and voices that took over their lives and held them hostage in their own bodies. Not to mention testimonies of people cured of deadly addictions almost instantly with no withdrawal symptoms,
or healed of terminal diseases where the doctors can't explain why they are in perfect health, or even people who were either dying or declared dead but recovered with no brain or organ damage.

The power of LIFE to heal NATURALLY is the same process and power as God represents.

So this has been demonstrated, and is still faith based at the same time.
It is miraculous in some cases, where it cannot be explained, yet consistent with science at the same time.

You keep framing things as either/or, but the truth can be "all of the above."
Both faith and reason are satisfied, and not sacrificed or compromised one for the other.
Both science and religion can describe the same process and be consistent with each other.
What is natural can be described as spiritual, what is spiritual can be explained in natural terms.

There does not have to be contradiction or conflicts we cannot solve.

The process in life is what it is, and we can use both science and religious terms to explain it.
And it is STILL the same process that all humans go through, it is universal for all humanity to grow to maturity,
but at the same time each person has their own version of this according to their circumstances, so it is unique too!

As soon as we can forgive our differences over these things,
we can better see how they fit together as complements and not be in conflict as we feared.

Thanks for sharing here and I look forward to finishing this journey together,
with each person contributing valuable insights that are all important to reach a mutual understanding of the whole.

Take care and Thank you!

A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.


“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.”– Lawrence Krauss


What drives life toward preserving more life? What do you mean by this? Maybe I can answer this for you scientifically.

There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured


Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problemsfor belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would notimmediately imply the existence of a god, much less anyparticular one, as unknown natural processes or agents couldstill be at work. Most alleged miracles can be explained asstatistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result ofmagical thinking, misattribution,credulity, hearsay andanecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves,not reliable or definitiveforms of proof for such extraordinary claims.


Want to show me a miracle? Show me the sun rise in the west and set in the east here in Michigan. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance. Theists often fail to adequatelyapportion blamewhen claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflictingif it existed. If your child is cured of cancer, it’s a miracle. If he/she dies, it’s god’s will? Saying, “it was a miracle” explains nothing.

 

[sealybobo]

“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.” – Lawrence Krauss

sealybobo
Jesus represents Justice.
Man does not live by bread alone, and is not just the physical particles that make up our bodies and world.

Socially and spiritually we enjoy life based on RELATIONSHIPS with other people.
That's not just physical bread and water, but calls for lasting peace and justice
in order for society to be sustainable and ethical, focusing on constructive contributions and growth.

If you believe in seeing JUSTICE in the world, that is what it means to seek Jesus.
Sure it involves physically correcting wrongs in the real world, but it starts with a vision of justice in our hearts first.

All humanity has some faith in Justice, and this drive toward Justice either unites us
or breaks us, tripping over our own issues we need to resolve first
in the peacemaking process. Either way, we are still driven toward Justice
which is an abstract principle on a higher level BEFORE it is manifested in the physical mechanics of the world we live in.

Couldn't you say the same thing about dolphins and elephants?

 

[emilynghiem]

“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.” – Lawrence Krauss

sealybobo
Jesus represents Justice.
Man does not live by bread alone, and is not just the physical particles that make up our bodies and world.

Socially and spiritually we enjoy life based on RELATIONSHIPS with other people.
That's not just physical bread and water, but calls for lasting peace and justice
in order for society to be sustainable and ethical, focusing on constructive contributions and growth.

If you believe in seeing JUSTICE in the world, that is what it means to seek Jesus.
Sure it involves physically correcting wrongs in the real world, but it starts with a vision of justice in our hearts first.

All humanity has some faith in Justice, and this drive toward Justice either unites us
or breaks us, tripping over our own issues we need to resolve first
in the peacemaking process. Either way, we are still driven toward Justice
which is an abstract principle on a higher level BEFORE it is manifested in the physical mechanics of the world we live in.

Couldn't you say the same thing about dolphins and elephants?

Dolphins and Elephants don't get on internet forums
and project their forgiveness issues about members of other groups they blame for the problems of the world.

People do that. We have a conscience and we
carry responsibilities for past injustices that our consciences drive us to correct.

We are not only AWARE of natural laws of justice, peace and order
but seek to COMMUNICATE and establish these in WRITING!!

So we humans have a different role to play than other animals.
We are designed not only to master our learning curve,
but document and teach the process for future generations.

 

[sealybobo]

We humans are such a new young species. For millions of years before the dinosaurs, Trilobites ruled this planet. If they were smart enough to figure out gods, they would have thought they were the chosen ones. Then after trilobites dinosaurs ruled for millions of years before humans. We've only been here about 1 million years. NOthing. And for billions of years other stars were being born and died before our star even began. The facts show we are insignificant and there are probably millions of other planets with life on them. And millions of planets with life have probably come and gone since the big bang and before us. They all thought they were the chosen ones too.

Christians act like god made all this universe for us. Silly really

 

[sealybobo]

“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.” – Lawrence Krauss

sealybobo
Jesus represents Justice.
Man does not live by bread alone, and is not just the physical particles that make up our bodies and world.

Socially and spiritually we enjoy life based on RELATIONSHIPS with other people.
That's not just physical bread and water, but calls for lasting peace and justice
in order for society to be sustainable and ethical, focusing on constructive contributions and growth.

If you believe in seeing JUSTICE in the world, that is what it means to seek Jesus.
Sure it involves physically correcting wrongs in the real world, but it starts with a vision of justice in our hearts first.

All humanity has some faith in Justice, and this drive toward Justice either unites us
or breaks us, tripping over our own issues we need to resolve first
in the peacemaking process. Either way, we are still driven toward Justice
which is an abstract principle on a higher level BEFORE it is manifested in the physical mechanics of the world we live in.

Couldn't you say the same thing about dolphins and elephants?

Dolphins and Elephants don't get on internet forums
and project their forgiveness issues about members of other groups they blame for the problems of the world.

People do that. We have a conscience and we
carry responsibilities for past injustices that our consciences drive us to correct.

We are not only AWARE of natural laws of justice, peace and order
but seek to COMMUNICATE and establish these in WRITING!!

So we humans have a different role to play than other animals.
We are designed not only to master our learning curve,
but document and teach the process for future generations.

I use to think one day we'd escape this solar system and live forever out in space but the fact is, our universe only has 10 billion years left. Turns out nothing is forever except god and Christian souls.

 

[emilynghiem]

Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias,Cherry Picking.

See also: Argument from Miracles, Why won’t god heal amputees? Spontaneous Remission of Disease, The problem with anecdotes (a must watch).

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” – Carl Sagan

“Elite athletes make first place, strange shapes appear on toast and some people narrowly escape death, but amputated limbs never regrow, mountains never move and food never spontaneously appears in front of the hundreds of children that starve to death each hour.” – Anonymous

Disagree sealybobo
1. First of all miracles do not need to contradict science.
Life can be considered a miracle we cannot fully explain. What drives life toward preserving more life?
We don't know. Thus it is a miracle that life begets life if we cannot explain this, yet it is consistent with science.

2. Secondly, if you want to call even "miraculous" changes that occurred NATURALLY
as demonstrations of how divine/life energy works,
there is PLENTY of proof that this has happened in many instances and forms.

Again, I have long pointed out the benefits of studying and proving how Spiritual Healing works.
There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured of Rheumatoid Arthritis,
going from crippled and bedridden in pain, to walking normally with no more symptoms and without using any
medication. And cases of people cured of "incureable" Schizophrenia who restored their minds and free will,
and are no longer hijacked by demonic personalities and voices that took over their lives and held them hostage in their own bodies. Not to mention testimonies of people cured of deadly addictions almost instantly with no withdrawal symptoms,
or healed of terminal diseases where the doctors can't explain why they are in perfect health, or even people who were either dying or declared dead but recovered with no brain or organ damage.

The power of LIFE to heal NATURALLY is the same process and power as God represents.

So this has been demonstrated, and is still faith based at the same time.
It is miraculous in some cases, where it cannot be explained, yet consistent with science at the same time.

You keep framing things as either/or, but the truth can be "all of the above."
Both faith and reason are satisfied, and not sacrificed or compromised one for the other.
Both science and religion can describe the same process and be consistent with each other.
What is natural can be described as spiritual, what is spiritual can be explained in natural terms.

There does not have to be contradiction or conflicts we cannot solve.

The process in life is what it is, and we can use both science and religious terms to explain it.
And it is STILL the same process that all humans go through, it is universal for all humanity to grow to maturity,
but at the same time each person has their own version of this according to their circumstances, so it is unique too!

As soon as we can forgive our differences over these things,
we can better see how they fit together as complements and not be in conflict as we feared.

Thanks for sharing here and I look forward to finishing this journey together,
with each person contributing valuable insights that are all important to reach a mutual understanding of the whole.

Take care and Thank you!

A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.


“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.”– Lawrence Krauss


What drives life toward preserving more life? What do you mean by this? Maybe I can answer this for you scientifically.

There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured


Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problemsfor belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would notimmediately imply the existence of a god, much less anyparticular one, as unknown natural processes or agents couldstill be at work. Most alleged miracles can be explained asstatistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result ofmagical thinking, misattribution,credulity, hearsay andanecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves,not reliable or definitiveforms of proof for such extraordinary claims.


Want to show me a miracle? Show me the sun rise in the west and set in the east here in Michigan. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance. Theists often fail to adequatelyapportion blamewhen claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflictingif it existed. If your child is cured of cancer, it’s a miracle. If he/she dies, it’s god’s will? Saying, “it was a miracle” explains nothing.

OK sealybobo then "explain" how the soul or personality of a person
gets into the body. Where does the energy come from and how does life replicate itself?
We may be able to explain the physical chemical steps we can quantify
but what about the capacities of humanity that are subtle and we can't predict or explain how everything works?

What allows the process of forgiveness and healing.
How can one person happen to connect online, without having to meet,
and influence another person in a positive way. is it just the chemical reactions in the brain?
I've had people report more than just that level of change, but changing their
personality and coming out feeling loved or relieved or making some huge leap bigger than
any words typed on the screen.

How do you "explain" how someone can experience years and years of serious abuse and hurt,
but a single action, a kind word or gesture, can somehow overtake and erase all that even though it is not proportional.

sealybobo there are a lot of things we can explain with science
and still have parts of it that are faith based.

If you read Scott Peck's book Glimpses of the Devil, he said similar
about what he observed with successful therapy for schizophrenic patients.
He said 95% of what he observed and documented could be explained by traditional science.
But there was 5% that he felt without any doubt was coming from a higher spiritual level
that exceeded scientific definitions and understanding.

The point is, sealybobo, that this science does NOT have to negate the
faith based approach to the same process; nor does the faith have to negate the scientific explanation.

IT IS STILL THE SAME PROCESS, that's the point!

So if you want to use science to explain how forgiveness therapy and spiritual healing work, that works for that
audience and context. While those who need to connect with it through their religious or spiritual systems,
that works for that audience too!

sealybobo this is not a competition between religion and science to prove one right and the other wrong.
it is a partnership for those who use religious terms and those who use science and natural laws
to check and balance each other, to serve as "two independent witnesses" to describe the
SAME processes in life, and stick to where they AGREE in principle what is happening,
what causes problems, and what helps with correcting them!

This is like two ranges of instruments, the bass and the treble, both playing complementary parts
of the same symphony. it is NOT a contest for one section to outblast the other off the stage.

They are supposed to synchronize and create harmony so the whole piece can be complete.
the music that is conveyed is what is the goal, and all the different instruments are equally necessary to the whole.

 

[emilynghiem]

I use to think one day we'd escape this solar system and live forever out in space but the fact is, our universe only has 10 billion years left. Turns out nothing is forever except god and Christian souls.

OK if we have 10 billion years, that's not so bad that it's taken 2000 to get to this point
and people are still fighting over whether church or state authority comes first, and whose
team has the bigger bully or set of nukes, or the stronger dollar to beat out the competition.

Maybe there is hope, even if it takes a few more years for people to work across parties
and get over the fact we have different political beliefs. I thought we were running behind schedule.
But maybe it will take a few million more years to make peace!
So we can at least enjoy some of the time we have left after that.....

 

[emilynghiem]

We humans are such a new young species. For millions of years before the dinosaurs, Trilobites ruled this planet. If they were smart enough to figure out gods, they would have thought they were the chosen ones. Then after trilobites dinosaurs ruled for millions of years before humans. We've only been here about 1 million years. NOthing. And for billions of years other stars were being born and died before our star even began. The facts show we are insignificant and there are probably millions of other planets with life on them. And millions of planets with life have probably come and gone since the big bang and before us. They all thought they were the chosen ones too.

Christians act like god made all this universe for us. Silly really

I think the point is we are supposed to appreciate life as a gift.
And accept the responsibility that comes with that since we have
the ability to carry what we learn from one generation to the next,
we can document and teach from our history, and plan for the future beyond our lifetime
and leave things on written records for the next generations to finish after us.

As for Christians looking self-centered, the same is also said of Liberal secularists
acting like their view of the world is the only one. So all groups can come across as
self-serving and missing the bigger picture! The most revealing article on this
was that study on the liberal brain, that pointed out the liberal view was more focused
on INDIVIDUAL rights and freedoms and not preserving the traditional institutions as beneficial.

So individual choice and responsibility can also be taken too far off the left side of the map,
as the right side, where people go overboard with freedom (to choose abortion, drugs,
violate immigration restrictions, etc.) and not consider the harm caused to collective society.

The criticism goes both ways. Both sides can get so myopic they forget
that their approach can exclude or omit things that the other side catches.
They really need to check and balance each other, to cover everything the other might miss.

Then we can at least cover what we can see and quantify.
We still can never capture everything going on in the world.

If we can at least get our issues straight on what we CAN put into words,
that's enough work to keep us busy for the next few millenia!

Plenty to work on, even if we did just work on ourselves and the issues we KNOW we have to address.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

When they are mocked for their religious beliefs.

Most of you know that I am a Muslim. I am a non practicing Muslim, and am not majorly devout, however, I have held my faith for a good 6 years now.

In my city, the council passed a motion to build a mosque, which will accommodate the Muslims in the city, who currently have to cram into a tiny little room that the university has kindly allowed them use of when they wish to pray.

On Saturday, there was a rally against this proposed mosque, and a counter rally in support of it. I attended the counter rally, and was horrified by the hatred shown toward those who just want to allow Muslims their own special place of worship.

Back at work, I discovered that my 'friends', who were also very much opposed to the mosque, bitching and complaining that 'those people want to take over the world', and 'they messed up their own country, now they want to screw up ours', and just making jokes about how when the mosque is built, we won't be allowed to serve bacon anymore.

As well as questioning why I wanted the mosque built (none of their business), their attitude toward Muslims appalled me. They don't know that while they make fun of Muslims, they are actually making fun of me. When they say they don't want Muslims in the city, does that mean they wouldn't want me, someone who has lived here for all my 32 years?

As someone who is too scared to openly show my faith, or even learn more about it for fear my faith will be discovered by those who will mock it, I can certainly understand how Christians feel when they are jeered and mocked for their beliefs.
While most of the so called Christians who attended the rally on Saturday are certainly not Christians (Jesus would be appalled at their hatred), there are many who have shown that they are ready to welcome in people of all faiths, which is pleasing - its a lot of loud mouthed fools that just make it so hard for me to feel welcome.

Today I have never felt so rejected and unwanted. I cannot imagine what Christians have had to deal with when they cop shit from atheists.

How do you guys manage to deal with the hatred?

How come you haven't chimed in at all? Maybe Jeremiah can convert you to Christianity, I can convince you that athiesm is the truth or maybe Emily can convert you to whatever religion she's involved in.

Emily is following the tenets of New Age religion (which isn't Biblical Christianity - you're right, Sealy) and Noomi is a Muslim - non practicing as she stated earlier. What they need and what you need (to believe) is prayer. Prayer is what reveals Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life and exposes everything that is not truth. You cannot add to the Word of God. The Word of God stands by itself. It does not depend on the "opinions of men".

As I stated earlier in my quoting Gurnall. Scripture confirms Scripture. False teachings /teachers never agree with one another. That is how you know it is false. Islam does not agree with New Age and New Age does not agree with Islam, add to the mix Jehovah Witness, Mormon religion, Buddhism, Christian science - none of them agree with one another nor could they because they are all false religion.

You will find that the New Agers do not even again with the New Agers and behind closed doors? Their hatred, slander, contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ, born again Christians is palpable.

Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Christians) and the author of false religions and as such he has set in the heart of all these cults to have contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ and the Written Word of God. They continually attempt to twist the Scriptures because the truth is not in them.

My belief is that prayer and reading Scripture is what will draw you to Jesus and I have no doubt that there are others who pray for you also, Sealy. You cannot be "talked into the kingdom of God". You have to be prayed for and seeds planted in your heart OF the Word of God. In time, it will have its effect and you shall be saved.

_____
I would not have discussions with false teachers if I were you, Sealy. There is no point to it and it is opening you up to further deception. I'd avoid such people and try to read the KJV bible some each day and see what God will do.

 

[emilynghiem]

When they are mocked for their religious beliefs.

Most of you know that I am a Muslim. I am a non practicing Muslim, and am not majorly devout, however, I have held my faith for a good 6 years now.

In my city, the council passed a motion to build a mosque, which will accommodate the Muslims in the city, who currently have to cram into a tiny little room that the university has kindly allowed them use of when they wish to pray.

On Saturday, there was a rally against this proposed mosque, and a counter rally in support of it. I attended the counter rally, and was horrified by the hatred shown toward those who just want to allow Muslims their own special place of worship.

Back at work, I discovered that my 'friends', who were also very much opposed to the mosque, bitching and complaining that 'those people want to take over the world', and 'they messed up their own country, now they want to screw up ours', and just making jokes about how when the mosque is built, we won't be allowed to serve bacon anymore.

As well as questioning why I wanted the mosque built (none of their business), their attitude toward Muslims appalled me. They don't know that while they make fun of Muslims, they are actually making fun of me. When they say they don't want Muslims in the city, does that mean they wouldn't want me, someone who has lived here for all my 32 years?

As someone who is too scared to openly show my faith, or even learn more about it for fear my faith will be discovered by those who will mock it, I can certainly understand how Christians feel when they are jeered and mocked for their beliefs.
While most of the so called Christians who attended the rally on Saturday are certainly not Christians (Jesus would be appalled at their hatred), there are many who have shown that they are ready to welcome in people of all faiths, which is pleasing - its a lot of loud mouthed fools that just make it so hard for me to feel welcome.

Today I have never felt so rejected and unwanted. I cannot imagine what Christians have had to deal with when they cop shit from atheists.

How do you guys manage to deal with the hatred?

How come you haven't chimed in at all? Maybe Jeremiah can convert you to Christianity, I can convince you that athiesm is the truth or maybe Emily can convert you to whatever religion she's involved in.

Emily is following the tenets of New Age religion (which isn't Biblical Christianity - you're right, Sealy) and Noomi is a Muslim - non practicing as she stated earlier. What they need and what you need (to believe) is prayer. Prayer is what reveals Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life and exposes everything that is not truth. You cannot add to the Word of God. The Word of God stands by itself. It does not depend on the "opinions of men".

As I stated earlier in my quoting Gurnall. Scripture confirms Scripture. False teachings /teachers never agree with one another. That is how you know it is false. Islam does not agree with New Age and New Age does not agree with Islam, add to the mix Jehovah Witness, Mormon religion, Buddhism, Christian science - none of them agree with one another nor could they because they are all false religion.

You will find that the New Agers do not even again with the New Agers and behind closed doors? Their hatred, slander, contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ, born again Christians is palpable.

Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Christians) and the author of false religions and as such he has set in the heart of all these cults to have contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ and the Written Word of God. They continually attempt to twist the Scriptures because the truth is not in them.

My belief is that prayer and reading Scripture is what will draw you to Jesus and I have no doubt that there are others who pray for you also, Sealy. You cannot be "talked into the kingdom of God". You have to be prayed for and seeds planted in your heart OF the Word of God. In time, it will have its effect and you shall be saved.

_____
I would not have discussions with false teachers if I were you, Sealy. There is no point to it and it is opening you up to further deception. I'd avoid such people and try to read the KJV bible some each day and see what God will do.

Dear Jeremiah
I agree that anything false will be corrected in the spirit of truth.
James 5:16 Confess faults one to another and pray for one another that we may be healed
Matthew 18:15-20 on redressing faults and trespasses, and establishing truth by agreement in Christ

Also the scriptures that there are no more conflicting divisions between
Jews or Gentiles, male or female, bond nor free, but all are one in Christ Jesus.
Totally share faith in the rightenousness of Christ Jesus as the ONE mediator
between God and man to correct all wrongs, make all things right, new and whole.

I am not disagreeing with you but agree that any false teaching will be corrected in the process.

I'm sorry that I am not communicating the same to you, as you are to me,
so it appears to you I am teaching something "New Age" or false that negates or rejects Christ.
This is not the case: I don't agree with anything that clashes with the truth in the Bible
so this is not what I mean at all. sorry it comes across that way to you,
but that is NOT what I mean. Sorry for the miscommunications between us.

The truth I am talking about being established HAS to be the same as what you
are saying or it isn't God's truth if it is not universal and conflicts that way.
The real Universal truth WILL by definition satisfy all the things you bring up
to test or prove those standards are met. It will not contradict any of the things you are worried about or teach anything false you are worried about. Any and all errors or falsehoods
will be rebuked and corrected in the process for it to be God's universal truth.

Sorry to worry you, but I trust that God will correct all things,
and all the concerns you bring up will be addressed and corrected in Christ.

 

[sealybobo]

Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias,Cherry Picking.

See also: Argument from Miracles, Why won’t god heal amputees? Spontaneous Remission of Disease, The problem with anecdotes (a must watch).

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” – Carl Sagan

“Elite athletes make first place, strange shapes appear on toast and some people narrowly escape death, but amputated limbs never regrow, mountains never move and food never spontaneously appears in front of the hundreds of children that starve to death each hour.” – Anonymous

Disagree sealybobo
1. First of all miracles do not need to contradict science.
Life can be considered a miracle we cannot fully explain. What drives life toward preserving more life?
We don't know. Thus it is a miracle that life begets life if we cannot explain this, yet it is consistent with science.

2. Secondly, if you want to call even "miraculous" changes that occurred NATURALLY
as demonstrations of how divine/life energy works,
there is PLENTY of proof that this has happened in many instances and forms.

Again, I have long pointed out the benefits of studying and proving how Spiritual Healing works.
There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured of Rheumatoid Arthritis,
going from crippled and bedridden in pain, to walking normally with no more symptoms and without using any
medication. And cases of people cured of "incureable" Schizophrenia who restored their minds and free will,
and are no longer hijacked by demonic personalities and voices that took over their lives and held them hostage in their own bodies. Not to mention testimonies of people cured of deadly addictions almost instantly with no withdrawal symptoms,
or healed of terminal diseases where the doctors can't explain why they are in perfect health, or even people who were either dying or declared dead but recovered with no brain or organ damage.

The power of LIFE to heal NATURALLY is the same process and power as God represents.

So this has been demonstrated, and is still faith based at the same time.
It is miraculous in some cases, where it cannot be explained, yet consistent with science at the same time.

You keep framing things as either/or, but the truth can be "all of the above."
Both faith and reason are satisfied, and not sacrificed or compromised one for the other.
Both science and religion can describe the same process and be consistent with each other.
What is natural can be described as spiritual, what is spiritual can be explained in natural terms.

There does not have to be contradiction or conflicts we cannot solve.

The process in life is what it is, and we can use both science and religious terms to explain it.
And it is STILL the same process that all humans go through, it is universal for all humanity to grow to maturity,
but at the same time each person has their own version of this according to their circumstances, so it is unique too!

As soon as we can forgive our differences over these things,
we can better see how they fit together as complements and not be in conflict as we feared.

Thanks for sharing here and I look forward to finishing this journey together,
with each person contributing valuable insights that are all important to reach a mutual understanding of the whole.

Take care and Thank you!

A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.


“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements – the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life – weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be today.”– Lawrence Krauss


What drives life toward preserving more life? What do you mean by this? Maybe I can answer this for you scientifically.

There are plenty of cases of people who were "miraculously' cured


Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problemsfor belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would notimmediately imply the existence of a god, much less anyparticular one, as unknown natural processes or agents couldstill be at work. Most alleged miracles can be explained asstatistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result ofmagical thinking, misattribution,credulity, hearsay andanecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves,not reliable or definitiveforms of proof for such extraordinary claims.


Want to show me a miracle? Show me the sun rise in the west and set in the east here in Michigan. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance. Theists often fail to adequatelyapportion blamewhen claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflictingif it existed. If your child is cured of cancer, it’s a miracle. If he/she dies, it’s god’s will? Saying, “it was a miracle” explains nothing.

OK sealybobo then "explain" how the soul or personality of a person
gets into the body. Where does the energy come from and how does life replicate itself?
We may be able to explain the physical chemical steps we can quantify
but what about the capacities of humanity that are subtle and we can't predict or explain how everything works?

What allows the process of forgiveness and healing.
How can one person happen to connect online, without having to meet,
and influence another person in a positive way. is it just the chemical reactions in the brain?
I've had people report more than just that level of change, but changing their
personality and coming out feeling loved or relieved or making some huge leap bigger than
any words typed on the screen.

How do you "explain" how someone can experience years and years of serious abuse and hurt,
but a single action, a kind word or gesture, can somehow overtake and erase all that even though it is not proportional.

sealybobo there are a lot of things we can explain with science
and still have parts of it that are faith based.

If you read Scott Peck's book Glimpses of the Devil, he said similar
about what he observed with successful therapy for schizophrenic patients.
He said 95% of what he observed and documented could be explained by traditional science.
But there was 5% that he felt without any doubt was coming from a higher spiritual level
that exceeded scientific definitions and understanding.

The point is, sealybobo, that this science does NOT have to negate the
faith based approach to the same process; nor does the faith have to negate the scientific explanation.

IT IS STILL THE SAME PROCESS, that's the point!

So if you want to use science to explain how forgiveness therapy and spiritual healing work, that works for that
audience and context. While those who need to connect with it through their religious or spiritual systems,
that works for that audience too!

sealybobo this is not a competition between religion and science to prove one right and the other wrong.
it is a partnership for those who use religious terms and those who use science and natural laws
to check and balance each other, to serve as "two independent witnesses" to describe the
SAME processes in life, and stick to where they AGREE in principle what is happening,
what causes problems, and what helps with correcting them!

This is like two ranges of instruments, the bass and the treble, both playing complementary parts
of the same symphony. it is NOT a contest for one section to outblast the other off the stage.

They are supposed to synchronize and create harmony so the whole piece can be complete.
the music that is conveyed is what is the goal, and all the different instruments are equally necessary to the whole.

I've had many dogs in my life they all have different personalities.

Anything that can't be answered the answer is "I don't know" not must be God.

Did you hear that woman who won't give gays marriage licences says God directs her decisions? She's listened and found God too.

 

[sealybobo]

When they are mocked for their religious beliefs.

Most of you know that I am a Muslim. I am a non practicing Muslim, and am not majorly devout, however, I have held my faith for a good 6 years now.

In my city, the council passed a motion to build a mosque, which will accommodate the Muslims in the city, who currently have to cram into a tiny little room that the university has kindly allowed them use of when they wish to pray.

On Saturday, there was a rally against this proposed mosque, and a counter rally in support of it. I attended the counter rally, and was horrified by the hatred shown toward those who just want to allow Muslims their own special place of worship.

Back at work, I discovered that my 'friends', who were also very much opposed to the mosque, bitching and complaining that 'those people want to take over the world', and 'they messed up their own country, now they want to screw up ours', and just making jokes about how when the mosque is built, we won't be allowed to serve bacon anymore.

As well as questioning why I wanted the mosque built (none of their business), their attitude toward Muslims appalled me. They don't know that while they make fun of Muslims, they are actually making fun of me. When they say they don't want Muslims in the city, does that mean they wouldn't want me, someone who has lived here for all my 32 years?

As someone who is too scared to openly show my faith, or even learn more about it for fear my faith will be discovered by those who will mock it, I can certainly understand how Christians feel when they are jeered and mocked for their beliefs.
While most of the so called Christians who attended the rally on Saturday are certainly not Christians (Jesus would be appalled at their hatred), there are many who have shown that they are ready to welcome in people of all faiths, which is pleasing - its a lot of loud mouthed fools that just make it so hard for me to feel welcome.

Today I have never felt so rejected and unwanted. I cannot imagine what Christians have had to deal with when they cop shit from atheists.

How do you guys manage to deal with the hatred?

How come you haven't chimed in at all? Maybe Jeremiah can convert you to Christianity, I can convince you that athiesm is the truth or maybe Emily can convert you to whatever religion she's involved in.

Emily is following the tenets of New Age religion (which isn't Biblical Christianity - you're right, Sealy) and Noomi is a Muslim - non practicing as she stated earlier. What they need and what you need (to believe) is prayer. Prayer is what reveals Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life and exposes everything that is not truth. You cannot add to the Word of God. The Word of God stands by itself. It does not depend on the "opinions of men".

As I stated earlier in my quoting Gurnall. Scripture confirms Scripture. False teachings /teachers never agree with one another. That is how you know it is false. Islam does not agree with New Age and New Age does not agree with Islam, add to the mix Jehovah Witness, Mormon religion, Buddhism, Christian science - none of them agree with one another nor could they because they are all false religion.

You will find that the New Agers do not even again with the New Agers and behind closed doors? Their hatred, slander, contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ, born again Christians is palpable.

Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Christians) and the author of false religions and as such he has set in the heart of all these cults to have contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ and the Written Word of God. They continually attempt to twist the Scriptures because the truth is not in them.

My belief is that prayer and reading Scripture is what will draw you to Jesus and I have no doubt that there are others who pray for you also, Sealy. You cannot be "talked into the kingdom of God". You have to be prayed for and seeds planted in your heart OF the Word of God. In time, it will have its effect and you shall be saved.

_____
I would not have discussions with false teachers if I were you, Sealy. There is no point to it and it is opening you up to further deception. I'd avoid such people and try to read the KJV bible some each day and see what God will do.

Muslims pray 7 times a day and Jesus never shows up.

 

[sealybobo]

When they are mocked for their religious beliefs.

Most of you know that I am a Muslim. I am a non practicing Muslim, and am not majorly devout, however, I have held my faith for a good 6 years now.

In my city, the council passed a motion to build a mosque, which will accommodate the Muslims in the city, who currently have to cram into a tiny little room that the university has kindly allowed them use of when they wish to pray.

On Saturday, there was a rally against this proposed mosque, and a counter rally in support of it. I attended the counter rally, and was horrified by the hatred shown toward those who just want to allow Muslims their own special place of worship.

Back at work, I discovered that my 'friends', who were also very much opposed to the mosque, bitching and complaining that 'those people want to take over the world', and 'they messed up their own country, now they want to screw up ours', and just making jokes about how when the mosque is built, we won't be allowed to serve bacon anymore.

As well as questioning why I wanted the mosque built (none of their business), their attitude toward Muslims appalled me. They don't know that while they make fun of Muslims, they are actually making fun of me. When they say they don't want Muslims in the city, does that mean they wouldn't want me, someone who has lived here for all my 32 years?

As someone who is too scared to openly show my faith, or even learn more about it for fear my faith will be discovered by those who will mock it, I can certainly understand how Christians feel when they are jeered and mocked for their beliefs.
While most of the so called Christians who attended the rally on Saturday are certainly not Christians (Jesus would be appalled at their hatred), there are many who have shown that they are ready to welcome in people of all faiths, which is pleasing - its a lot of loud mouthed fools that just make it so hard for me to feel welcome.

Today I have never felt so rejected and unwanted. I cannot imagine what Christians have had to deal with when they cop shit from atheists.

How do you guys manage to deal with the hatred?

How come you haven't chimed in at all? Maybe Jeremiah can convert you to Christianity, I can convince you that athiesm is the truth or maybe Emily can convert you to whatever religion she's involved in.

Emily is following the tenets of New Age religion (which isn't Biblical Christianity - you're right, Sealy) and Noomi is a Muslim - non practicing as she stated earlier. What they need and what you need (to believe) is prayer. Prayer is what reveals Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life and exposes everything that is not truth. You cannot add to the Word of God. The Word of God stands by itself. It does not depend on the "opinions of men".

As I stated earlier in my quoting Gurnall. Scripture confirms Scripture. False teachings /teachers never agree with one another. That is how you know it is false. Islam does not agree with New Age and New Age does not agree with Islam, add to the mix Jehovah Witness, Mormon religion, Buddhism, Christian science - none of them agree with one another nor could they because they are all false religion.

You will find that the New Agers do not even again with the New Agers and behind closed doors? Their hatred, slander, contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ, born again Christians is palpable.

Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Christians) and the author of false religions and as such he has set in the heart of all these cults to have contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ and the Written Word of God. They continually attempt to twist the Scriptures because the truth is not in them.

My belief is that prayer and reading Scripture is what will draw you to Jesus and I have no doubt that there are others who pray for you also, Sealy. You cannot be "talked into the kingdom of God". You have to be prayed for and seeds planted in your heart OF the Word of God. In time, it will have its effect and you shall be saved.

_____
I would not have discussions with false teachers if I were you, Sealy. There is no point to it and it is opening you up to further deception. I'd avoid such people and try to read the KJV bible some each day and see what God will do.

Dear Jeremiah
I agree that anything false will be corrected in the spirit of truth.
James 5:16 Confess faults one to another and pray for one another that we may be healed
Matthew 18:15-20 on redressing faults and trespasses, and establishing truth by agreement in Christ

Also the scriptures that there are no more conflicting divisions between
Jews or Gentiles, male or female, bond nor free, but all are one in Christ Jesus.
Totally share faith in the rightenousness of Christ Jesus as the ONE mediator
between God and man to correct all wrongs, make all things right, new and whole.

I am not disagreeing with you but agree that any false teaching will be corrected in the process.

I'm sorry that I am not communicating the same to you, as you are to me,
so it appears to you I am teaching something "New Age" or false that negates or rejects Christ.
This is not the case: I don't agree with anything that clashes with the truth in the Bible
so this is not what I mean at all. sorry it comes across that way to you,
but that is NOT what I mean. Sorry for the miscommunications between us.

The truth I am talking about being established HAS to be the same as what you
are saying or it isn't God's truth if it is not universal and conflicts that way.
The real Universal truth WILL by definition satisfy all the things you bring up
to test or prove those standards are met. It will not contradict any of the things you are worried about or teach anything false you are worried about. Any and all errors or falsehoods
will be rebuked and corrected in the process for it to be God's universal truth.

Sorry to worry you, but I trust that God will correct all things,
and all the concerns you bring up will be addressed and corrected in Christ.

Sorry Emily. See you in hell.

 

[Tuatara]

What they need and what you need (to believe) is prayer. Prayer is what reveals Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life and exposes everything that is not truth. You cannot add to the Word of God. The Word of God stands by itself. It does not depend on the "opinions of men".

Prayer has been proven not to work. You look at what people pray for. Whether it's for a cure for some disease their loved one is dying of or for some lottery winnings or their favorite sports team to win which in turn other people are praying for the other sports team to win. There is zero correlation that praying gets the desired results over non-praying. As for praying to make one feel good for themselves, this can also be done by eating ice cream, listening to music or doing a favour for a friend to name a few.

As I stated earlier in my quoting Gurnall. Scripture confirms Scripture. False teachings /teachers never agree with one another. That is how you know it is false. Islam does not agree with New Age and New Age does not agree with Islam, add to the mix Jehovah Witness, Mormon religion, Buddhism, Christian science - none of them agree with one another nor could they because they are all false religion.

You will find that the New Agers do not even again with the New Agers and behind closed doors? Their hatred, slander, contempt for the followers of Jesus Christ, born again Christians is palpable.

Sorry to burst your bubble but even christians don't even agree with other christians. That is why there are over 2000 different "christian" sects and some have violently killed each other over these differences.

My belief is that prayer and reading Scripture is what will draw you to Jesus and I have no doubt that there are others who pray for you also, Sealy. You cannot be "talked into the kingdom of God". You have to be prayed for and seeds planted in your heart OF the Word of God. In time, it will have its effect and you shall be saved.

This is also a bit of BS as many atheists were one christians themselves and passed on the exact same messages. They all realized that heavy indoctrination and brainwashing were the culprits for these beliefs.
_____

I would not have discussions with false teachers if I were you, Sealy. There is no point to it and it is opening you up to further deception. I'd avoid such people and try to read the KJV bible some each day and see what God will do

Why the KJV bible over any other bible? Do you actually know the history of howthe bible was written and how and why it was edited heavily?

 

[Vigilante]

THINK about what a MAJORITY of your religion do to women...Think for a change!