Now….About That ‘Surprise’ Attack…..

[Manonthestreet]

Just look at how close a deal Normandy was, and we had total air superiority. . Japan was alrdy tied down in SE Asia and China ...Japan would have been fighting essentially a 2 front war. Read reams of WW II history with nary a wiff of them contemplating this.

Again you fail to understand: Japan would be fighting the Soviets, not America.

One front.

Look at a map.Rusdia to North. China to East Australia to South. That's 3 fronts . See ya can't address equipment disparity .Japanese had zero tanks that could go toe to toe with Soviet mainline tanks. And then there is this
Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact - Wikipedia

 

[PoliticalChic]

Just look at how close a deal Normandy was, and we had total air superiority. . Japan was alrdy tied down in SE Asia and China ...Japan would have been fighting essentially a 2 front war. Read reams of WW II history with nary a wiff of them contemplating this.

Again you fail to understand: Japan would be fighting the Soviets, not America.

One front.

Look at a map.Rusdia to North. China to East Australia to South. That's 3 fronts . See ya can't address equipment disparity .Japanese had zero tanks that could go toe to toe with Soviet mainline tanks. And then there is this
Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact - Wikipedia

Your link proves what I've said....not what you've said.

Stalin was deathly afraid to have to fight Germany and Japan.

In your link, he agrees to Japan's annexation of Manchuria.....


Pick up a copy:

In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History

[Operation Snow Pearl Harbor 2.0 | TIME.com]

 

[Manonthestreet]

Neither was going to fight the other .Russia didn't have the Navy and Japan didn't have the equipment to stand up in face off against tanks.........SE Asia had all resources Japan needed

 

[PoliticalChic]

Neither was going to fight the other .Russia didn't have the Navy and Japan didn't have the equipment to stand up in face off against tanks.........SE Asia had all resources Japan needed

Nonsense.

Siberia was beckoning.

Stalin knew it.

 

[Manonthestreet]

How many of those resources are still untapped today because it's damn cold and thus too expensive to bother

 

[rightwinger]

Just look at how close a deal Normandy was, and we had total air superiority. . Japan was alrdy tied down in SE Asia and China ...Japan would have been fighting essentially a 2 front war. Read reams of WW II history with nary a wiff of them contemplating this.

Again you fail to understand: Japan would be fighting the Soviets, not America.

One front.

Look at a map.Rusdia to North. China to East Australia to South. That's 3 fronts . See ya can't address equipment disparity .Japanese had zero tanks that could go toe to toe with Soviet mainline tanks. And then there is this
Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact - Wikipedia

Your link proves what I've said....not what you've said.

Stalin was deathly afraid to have to fight Germany and Japan.

In your link, he agrees to Japan's annexation of Manchuria.....


Pick up a copy:

In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History

[Operation Snow Pearl Harbor 2.0 | TIME.com]

Nonsense

Japan had been planning an attack for years
Japan lacked the capability to sustain an invasion of the USSR

 

[Manonthestreet]

Not to say Roosevelt might have know about the attack ...he may have .......been speclulted long time,

 

[PoliticalChic]

How many of those resources are still untapped today because it's damn cold and thus too expensive to bother

How far is Siberia from Manchuria?

"According to current historical wisdom, large numbers of veteran and well equipped Siberian divisions were deployed protecting the USSR’s eastern borders against a possible attack by Japan on 22nd June 1941. They were then apparently transferred west from October to November 1941 in time to have a decisive influence on the battle for Moscow. According to the same historical wisdom these divisions were released from October to November 1941, after Stalin had learned from his spy network in Japan, run by Richard Sorge, that the Japanese had no intention of attacking the USSR. Apparently by November 1941 these same Siberian divisions were being encountered all along the front protecting Moscow."
The ‘Siberian’ Divisions and the Battle for Moscow in 1941-42 | Operation Barbarrosa

 

[rightwinger]

Not to say Roosevelt might have know about the attack ...he may have .......been speclulted long time,

If he knew....why would he leave his battleships in port?

Why enter a war on two fronts with your Navy crippled?

 

[Manonthestreet]

Yah....still damn cold.....and Japan still lacked equipment to deal with Soviet Tanks ....Stalin should have suckered em into attacking would have shortened the war.

 

[danielpalos]

Surprise????
Pearl Harbor….Did Anyone Know It Was Coming????
December 7th....this date.....1941.... 2,335 military personnel killed, 1,177 were killed on board the U.S.S. Arizona.
Was it worth it to preserve the Soviet Union?????



1.I hate to give away the answer up front…but, yup…..everyone knew. (Psssst….Japanese planes sunk an American warship almost exactly four years before Pearl Harbor. A Clue….ya’ think?)



Well….to be more precise, Franklin Roosevelt didn’t appear to know….and government school grads still don’t know.

2. Japan knew, the Germans knew- Japan’s allies, the British knew- they sent a spy to make sure the White House knew, the Soviets knew- they had planned it, even Korean-American Kilsoo Haan knew-…more about him later.




3. Here’s the context: Japan needed to secure nature resources not found in Japan, so war was on the horizon. For Japan, it was finding resources, or death of the nation. It was the reason they invaded Manchuria in 1931.

“Japan's ongoing industrialization and militarization ensured his growing dependence on oil and metal imports from the US.[3] The American sanctions which prevented trade with the United States (which had occupied the Philippinesaround the same time) resulted in Japan furthering their expansion in the territory of China and Southeast Asia.”
Japanese invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia

But, really......Soviet Siberia was the obvious choice to target for geographical and historical reasons. Somehow the target was switched....

Stalin knew, and recognized that he’d be hard pressed to win a two front war: Germany to the west, and Japan to the South. So…..he had to make sure that Japan attacked America….and, luckily for him, his boyfriend was President, and his spies populated the Roosevelt administration.


“Even the most inscrutable Japanese businessman becomes more scrutable when he talks about Siberia, which is 35 times as large as Japan's home islands and less than 400 miles away. Mainland Siberia is one of the world's largest reservoirs of undeveloped natural resources (see map), a fact that does not fail to impress the raw material-hungry Japanese.”
Japan: Eyes on Siberia




4. Here’s one of those spies now! Harry Dexter White, Morgenthau’s right-hand man, and the man who controlled the FDR Treasury Department.

“Harry Dexter White, a trusted assistant to Franklin Roosevelt’s close friend and secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr., had just bought Vitalii Pavlov lunch. White had also accepted a written NKVD order on behalf of Joseph Stalin to protect the Soviet Union’s Pacific flank. He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.” John Koster, “Operation Snow: How a Soviet Mole in FDR’s White House Triggered Pearl Harbor,” p.8



"He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.”




5. While Japan had plans for the attack on Pearl, negotiations were ongoing, with the hope that they would preclude the war. When, in November, it looked like they might succeed, and peace break out, Harry White panicked!!

Oh, no! Japan might choose Stalin’s Russia as the target!!!!




Soooo.........
He authored an ultimatum that he knew would drive Japan to attack.

Either FDR was snoozing….or he was more concerned for Soviets than Americans.



I’ll provide that memorandum, and prove how widespread knowledge of the attack was known.

Our battleships should not have been there either.

An oversight? Who cares if the Japanese had known we knew about their plan; with our battleships still operational and ready to assume any initiative at any time.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Not to say Roosevelt might have know about the attack ...he may have .......been speclulted long time,

If he knew....why would he leave his battleships in port?

Why enter a war on two fronts with your Navy crippled?

Had to be some sort of targets eh......scout flies over and sees mty port ...prolly would be a tipoff they are on to ya

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Surprise????
Pearl Harbor….Did Anyone Know It Was Coming????
December 7th....this date.....1941.... 2,335 military personnel killed, 1,177 were killed on board the U.S.S. Arizona.
Was it worth it to preserve the Soviet Union?????



1.I hate to give away the answer up front…but, yup…..everyone knew. (Psssst….Japanese planes sunk an American warship almost exactly four years before Pearl Harbor. A Clue….ya’ think?)



Well….to be more precise, Franklin Roosevelt didn’t appear to know….and government school grads still don’t know.

2. Japan knew, the Germans knew- Japan’s allies, the British knew- they sent a spy to make sure the White House knew, the Soviets knew- they had planned it, even Korean-American Kilsoo Haan knew-…more about him later.




3. Here’s the context: Japan needed to secure nature resources not found in Japan, so war was on the horizon. For Japan, it was finding resources, or death of the nation. It was the reason they invaded Manchuria in 1931.

“Japan's ongoing industrialization and militarization ensured his growing dependence on oil and metal imports from the US.[3] The American sanctions which prevented trade with the United States (which had occupied the Philippinesaround the same time) resulted in Japan furthering their expansion in the territory of China and Southeast Asia.”
Japanese invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia

But, really......Soviet Siberia was the obvious choice to target for geographical and historical reasons. Somehow the target was switched....

Stalin knew, and recognized that he’d be hard pressed to win a two front war: Germany to the west, and Japan to the South. So…..he had to make sure that Japan attacked America….and, luckily for him, his boyfriend was President, and his spies populated the Roosevelt administration.


“Even the most inscrutable Japanese businessman becomes more scrutable when he talks about Siberia, which is 35 times as large as Japan's home islands and less than 400 miles away. Mainland Siberia is one of the world's largest reservoirs of undeveloped natural resources (see map), a fact that does not fail to impress the raw material-hungry Japanese.”
Japan: Eyes on Siberia




4. Here’s one of those spies now! Harry Dexter White, Morgenthau’s right-hand man, and the man who controlled the FDR Treasury Department.

“Harry Dexter White, a trusted assistant to Franklin Roosevelt’s close friend and secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr., had just bought Vitalii Pavlov lunch. White had also accepted a written NKVD order on behalf of Joseph Stalin to protect the Soviet Union’s Pacific flank. He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.” John Koster, “Operation Snow: How a Soviet Mole in FDR’s White House Triggered Pearl Harbor,” p.8



"He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.”




5. While Japan had plans for the attack on Pearl, negotiations were ongoing, with the hope that they would preclude the war. When, in November, it looked like they might succeed, and peace break out, Harry White panicked!!

Oh, no! Japan might choose Stalin’s Russia as the target!!!!




Soooo.........
He authored an ultimatum that he knew would drive Japan to attack.

Either FDR was snoozing….or he was more concerned for Soviets than Americans.



I’ll provide that memorandum, and prove how widespread knowledge of the attack was known.

Disrespectful, freakish post...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Surprise????
Pearl Harbor….Did Anyone Know It Was Coming????
December 7th....this date.....1941.... 2,335 military personnel killed, 1,177 were killed on board the U.S.S. Arizona.
Was it worth it to preserve the Soviet Union?????



1.I hate to give away the answer up front…but, yup…..everyone knew. (Psssst….Japanese planes sunk an American warship almost exactly four years before Pearl Harbor. A Clue….ya’ think?)



Well….to be more precise, Franklin Roosevelt didn’t appear to know….and government school grads still don’t know.

2. Japan knew, the Germans knew- Japan’s allies, the British knew- they sent a spy to make sure the White House knew, the Soviets knew- they had planned it, even Korean-American Kilsoo Haan knew-…more about him later.




3. Here’s the context: Japan needed to secure nature resources not found in Japan, so war was on the horizon. For Japan, it was finding resources, or death of the nation. It was the reason they invaded Manchuria in 1931.

“Japan's ongoing industrialization and militarization ensured his growing dependence on oil and metal imports from the US.[3] The American sanctions which prevented trade with the United States (which had occupied the Philippinesaround the same time) resulted in Japan furthering their expansion in the territory of China and Southeast Asia.”
Japanese invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia

But, really......Soviet Siberia was the obvious choice to target for geographical and historical reasons. Somehow the target was switched....

Stalin knew, and recognized that he’d be hard pressed to win a two front war: Germany to the west, and Japan to the South. So…..he had to make sure that Japan attacked America….and, luckily for him, his boyfriend was President, and his spies populated the Roosevelt administration.


“Even the most inscrutable Japanese businessman becomes more scrutable when he talks about Siberia, which is 35 times as large as Japan's home islands and less than 400 miles away. Mainland Siberia is one of the world's largest reservoirs of undeveloped natural resources (see map), a fact that does not fail to impress the raw material-hungry Japanese.”
Japan: Eyes on Siberia




4. Here’s one of those spies now! Harry Dexter White, Morgenthau’s right-hand man, and the man who controlled the FDR Treasury Department.

“Harry Dexter White, a trusted assistant to Franklin Roosevelt’s close friend and secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr., had just bought Vitalii Pavlov lunch. White had also accepted a written NKVD order on behalf of Joseph Stalin to protect the Soviet Union’s Pacific flank. He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.” John Koster, “Operation Snow: How a Soviet Mole in FDR’s White House Triggered Pearl Harbor,” p.8



"He had agreed to provoke a war between the United States and Japan.”




5. While Japan had plans for the attack on Pearl, negotiations were ongoing, with the hope that they would preclude the war. When, in November, it looked like they might succeed, and peace break out, Harry White panicked!!

Oh, no! Japan might choose Stalin’s Russia as the target!!!!




Soooo.........
He authored an ultimatum that he knew would drive Japan to attack.

Either FDR was snoozing….or he was more concerned for Soviets than Americans.



I’ll provide that memorandum, and prove how widespread knowledge of the attack was known.

Disrespectful, freakish post...

In other words, facts you never were taught in government school, and you have no way to deny.


Not unusual from one of your limited education.

 

[whitehall]

There are certain people that the media and so-called scholars and authors have declared sacred and off limits to discussion. Chief of Staff (later secretary of state) George C. Marshall is such a person. Marshall is credited with a near photographic memory but a few years after the most important incident of his life he could not recall his whereabouts in the early morning hours of 12/7/1941. When he finally walked into his office, uncharacteristically late on that fateful morning, he read and re-read and re-re read the decoded Magic message that indicated imminent attack but he failed to warn Pearl Harbor until the military message center went down. He could have picked up a phone but he decided to send a telegraph that arrived at Pearl about the same time as the Japanese bombers. Contrary to military tradition, Marshall blamed subordinates for his own negligence.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There are certain people that the media and so-called scholars and authors have declared sacred and off limits to discussion. Chief of Staff (later secretary of state) George C. Marshall is such a person. Marshall is credited with a near photographic memory but a few years after the most important incident of his life he could not recall his whereabouts in the early morning hours of 12/7/1941. When he finally walked into his office, uncharacteristically late on that fateful morning, he read and re-read and re-re read the decoded Magic message that indicated imminent attack but he failed to warn Pearl Harbor until the military message center went down. He could have picked up a phone but he decided to send a telegraph that arrived at Pearl about the same time as the Japanese bombers. Contrary to military tradition, Marshall blamed subordinates for his own negligence.

Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

I see you agree.

 

[rightwinger]

Yah....still damn cold.....and Japan still lacked equipment to deal with Soviet Tanks ....Stalin should have suckered em into attacking would have shortened the war.

Japan did not have a force large enough, or a supply chain to invade the expanses of Siberia with horrible roads and weather

 

[rightwinger]

Not to say Roosevelt might have know about the attack ...he may have .......been speclulted long time,

If he knew....why would he leave his battleships in port?

Why enter a war on two fronts with your Navy crippled?

Had to be some sort of targets eh......scout flies over and sees mty port ...prolly would be a tipoff they are on to ya

There would still be plenty of ships and ground targets

Any attack by Japan would have led to war.....why sacrifice your Battleships? FDR was old Navy and old Navy loved their big guns

 

[PoliticalChic]

8. I believe that I’ve made it more than clear that Roosevelt was deeply, deeply, in the thrall of ‘Uncle Joe’ Stalin, and that that ‘affection’ affected his political outlook as well. In other words, Franklin Roosevelt was predisposed in favor of communism, rather than the free markets and capitalism of our founders.


And that pertains to a subtext involving Japan.



Japan, as part of its ‘Empire building’ planned to conquer all of China, and it planned it at a most propitious time: a war was going on between the Nationalist Chinese, Chiang kai-Chek, and the Communist Chinese, under the psychopath, Mao, the one that Obama honored with Christmas tree ornaments on the White House tree.

While the Nationalists were corrupt, undisciplined and poorly led, the communist troops were the very opposite. The Chinese civil war would be won by the communists unless Japan were given a free hand to conquer all of the nation.
Another reason for Roosevelt to engage the Japanese.





Hence….two reasons why Roosevelt would encourage war with Japan:
to save Stalin’s Soviet Union from having to fight a two-front war,
and to see that China became communist as well.


Japan had to be kept from attacking the Soviet Union, and from conquering China, and if that meant allowing a 'surprise' attack on Pearl Harbor, so be it.


QED….the pretense of not knowing that the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming.

 

[PoliticalChic]

9. Now, the thesis here is that most of the world knew the attack, and the war, were coming. . Japan knew, the Germans knew- Japan’s allies, the British knew- they sent a spy to make sure the White House knew, the Soviets knew- they had planned it, even Kilsoo Haan knew-…I’ll get to him in a moment.


But what one must remember is that national security was not Roosevelt’s strong suit.

a. The United States under Franklin Roosevelt was far from a world class military force:
"...a historian’s July 22, 2010, article on President Franklin Roosevelt and Great Britain in WW II. David Woolner wrote that in June 1939, which was three months before England declared war on Germany, "the roughly 180,000-man U.S. Army ranked 19th in the world--smaller than Portugal’s!"
U.S. army was smaller than the army for Portugal before World War II



And…

b. We had no real CIA or spies, until after WWII, when we recognized the threat of communism. FDR had imagined Stalin as his pal, ‘Uncle Joe,’ so we had to rely on Nazis for our model of a spy agency….they had been spying on the Soviets for decades.


“Gehlen Organization or Gehlen Org was an intelligence agency established in June 1946 by U.S. occupation authorities in the United States Zone of Germany, and consisted of former members of the 12th Department of the German Army General Staff (Foreign Armies East, or FHO). It carries the name of Wehrmacht Major general Reinhard Gehlen, head of the German military intelligence in the Eastern Frontduring World War II.... The Org was for many years the only eyes and ears of the CIA on the ground in the Soviet Bloc nations during the Cold War. The CIA kept close tabs on the Gehlen group: the Org supplied the manpower while the CIA supplied the material needs for clandestine operations, including funding, cars and airplanes.

Every German POW returning from Soviet captivity to West Germany between 1947 and 1955 was interviewed by Org agents. Those returnees who were forced to work in Soviet industries and construction and were willing to participate, represented an incomparable source of information, a post-war, up-to-date picture of the Soviet empire as it evolved.”
. Gehlen Organization - Wikipedia



Harry Truman had an epiphany, and dispensed with Roosevelt’s love-sick fealty to Stalin.

How lucky we are that he was FDR’s third vice-president, and not FDR’s choice, communist Henry Wallace.



Sooo....maybe FDR was simply too slow-witted to know an attack was coming.....


....maybe.....