‘Nothing Less Than a Civil War’:These White Voters on the Far Right See Doom Without Trump

[Dragonlady]

I am tired of the extremists in this country. No middle ground, no compromise and always agitated.

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling-out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

 

[Dragonlady]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

The House doesn't have an impeachment "trial". That's the Senate's job. How stupid are you that you don't even understand the mechanics of impeachment? Oh right. Dumb Donald lied to you, and you believe him over. There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Get out of your bubble, Finger Boy. Even Republicans aren't buying the bullshit that Trump and the Russians are selling. They want an actual trial - with witnesses.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

Soon to be followed by the show trial in the Senate--right? You know Trump is a sleaze..and you lap it up. The house investigation could have been on point...but you hero would not let it go there,now would he?

I'm against impeachment...but i know..as do most Americans..the Trump is as slimy as a snail..and as crooked as the NAZI swazi's some of his supporters sport!

 

[justoffal]

I am tired of the extremists in this country. No middle ground, no compromise and always agitated.

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

I am tired of the extremists in this country. No middle ground, no compromise and always agitated.

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

Wow...are you lost in the fog or what? You are right there is no equivalent but you are wrong about which equivalent. The Entire multi billion dollar, multinational MSM is totally and completely in the tank for left wing progressivism. It has literally been co-opted piece by financial piece, newspaper by newspaper, TV channel by TV Channel...now even Fox has turned to the left. What in the name of HOLY EFFIN HELL are you talking about woman? You live in a bubble of your own making far away from reality.....how the hell did you miss that one?

The measly little audience that Limbaugh and a few others have on the radio is a David to the left wing's Goliath.....about that there is no debate. But like David the stone will find its mark....the difference in the effectiveness of the mesage is not the delivery system you....it's the quality of the audience on the other end.

JO

 

[justoffal]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

Soon to be followed by the show trial in the Senate--right? You know Trump is a sleaze..and you lap it up. The house investigation could have been on point...but you hero would not let it go there,now would he?

I'm against impeachment...but i know..as do most Americans..the Trump is as slimy as a snail..and as crooked as the NAZI swazi's some of his supporters sport!

Trump has more scruples and morality that his immediate predecessor by a mile.....he's just rude and that offends you. Obama was no different...he was just more polished and tickled the ears of the masses of morons.

It is fitting that the black community was the first one to catch on to his game.

Your insistence that you have somehow found a moral high ground is totally hilarious.

JO

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

Soon to be followed by the show trial in the Senate--right? You know Trump is a sleaze..and you lap it up. The house investigation could have been on point...but you hero would not let it go there,now would he?

I'm against impeachment...but i know..as do most Americans..the Trump is as slimy as a snail..and as crooked as the NAZI swazi's some of his supporters sport!

Trump has more scruples and morality that his immediate predecessor by a mile.....he's just rude and that offends you. Obama was no different...he was just more polished and tickled the ears of the masses of morons.

It is fitting that the black community was the first one to catch on to his game.

Your insistence that you have somehow found a moral high ground is totally hilarious.

JO

You really want to defend Trump in the realm of ethics and morality? Brave indeed!~
How many mistresses paraded brazenly in the public eye...while married? How many divorces? How many sleazy bankruptcies? How many charities scammed? How many outright lies? How many times caught pandering to conspiracies?

Better than the other guy...is not a defense..even if it were true..which I doubt. Scruples??? Trump is all about winning, right? He has no scruples--anything that advances his 'victories'..is fine with him.


Oh..and Obama is revered by most Blacks...some were not happy that he did not act more forcefully on some things...but he would still beat Trump about 98 to 1!

 

[Dana7360]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

I don't think Pelosi's goal was to get a conviction. She, like everyone else in our nation, knows that trump will not be found guilty in the senate.

I think her goal is to get as much of the facts out to the public as possible.

And to at least try to preserve the congress and constitution.

I think she thinks that if enough of the honest facts are presented to the population in the trial, trump won't have any chance of being reelected in November.

I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

I don't think Pelosi's goal was to get a conviction. She, like everyone else in our nation, knows that trump will not be found guilty in the senate.

I think her goal is to get as much of the facts out to the public as possible.

And to at least try to preserve the congress and constitution.

I think she thinks that if enough of the honest facts are presented to the population in the trial, trump won't have any chance of being reelected in November.

I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

In essence...one long campaign ad.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

No one is swallowing the leftwing "rule of law" horseshit, moron. The Soviet style show trial the conducted in the House was exactly the opposite of the rule of law.

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are Stalinists.

The House doesn't have an impeachment "trial". That's the Senate's job. How stupid are you that you don't even understand the mechanics of impeachment? Oh right. Dumb Donald lied to you, and you believe him over. There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Get out of your bubble, Finger Boy. Even Republicans aren't buying the bullshit that Trump and the Russians are selling. They want an actual trial - with witnesses.

The problem you leftwing morons have it trying to conflate impeachment with a regular legal trial. It's not one. in an impeachment, all the evidence is gathered during the impeachment portion, and all witness testimony is taken. The so-called "trial" consists only of the Senate voting on weather to convict or not. Any leftwing whining about no witness and "fairness" are therefor obvious horseshit. The Dims just want another bite of the apple because that would be the best for them politically. They don't give a flying fuck about "due process."

 

[bripat9643]

I'm for the rule of law.

[...]

For what it's worth..I'm not too fond of Progressives either....this impeachment shyte is stupid and counter-productive..the worst kind of Kabuki.

Riddle me this, Eye!

Pelosi, Nadler, and Schiff are NOT "Progressives". They are, however, insisting on governance according to the law and the Constitution, namely, the law be faithfully executed, and the Constitution be protected and defended. Decrying this effort at national hygiene as "Kabuki" doesn't fly well with your insistence on the "rule of law".

Also, please explain what "counter-productive" means, for in my reading you are suggesting that insisting on the rule of law, and holding the Executive to account, would entail more law-breaking, not less.

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

I don't think Pelosi's goal was to get a conviction. She, like everyone else in our nation, knows that trump will not be found guilty in the senate.

I think her goal is to get as much of the facts out to the public as possible.

And to at least try to preserve the congress and constitution.

I think she thinks that if enough of the honest facts are presented to the population in the trial, trump won't have any chance of being reelected in November.

I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

What "facts" did Pelosi get?

 

[Dragonlady]

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

Wow...are you lost in the fog or what? You are right there is no equivalent but you are wrong about which equivalent. The Entire multi billion dollar, multinational MSM is totally and completely in the tank for left wing progressivism. It has literally been co-opted piece by financial piece, newspaper by newspaper, TV channel by TV Channel...now even Fox has turned to the left. What in the name of HOLY EFFIN HELL are you talking about woman? You live in a bubble of your own making far away from reality.....how the hell did you miss that one?

The measly little audience that Limbaugh and a few others have on the radio is a David to the left wing's Goliath.....about that there is no debate. But like David the stone will find its mark....the difference in the effectiveness of the mesage is not the delivery system you dumb bitch....it's the quality of the audience on the other end.

JO

Boy are you triggered!! Huge red type screaming your outrage.

The so-called "left wing bias" in the MSM is a "slight" bias - less than 7%, and at no time does the left wing media call Republicans "enemies of the people", or say they're out to "destroy America". Republicans lie about Democrats and their policies because saying "We're going to cut taxes for the rich, and crash the stock market", won't get you many votes.

As always, Republicans lie about and amplify the idea that the MSM is overtly left biased to excuse their vilification of the left in FOX News and talk radio. But the bald truth is that billionaires own and control right wing media, and they have a vested interest in getting their policies passed. The only billionaire owning left wing media is Jeff Bezos' ownership of The Washington Post, and he is completely hands off in that ownership.

The Mercers, the Sinclairs and the Murdochs are not out for the working man, and never will be.

 

[Papageorgio]

I am tired of the extremists in this country. No middle ground, no compromise and always agitated.

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

Randi Rhodes was the best left wing hater in America, she has followers and she preaches nothing but hate. She wanted someone to shoot Bush, she claimed she was a victim of a violent attack she is a disgusting as they come. MSNBC has been a haven of false narratives and liberal propaganda. Maddow is is being sued for her lies. Your lies are just as misleading, Bush won the popular vote in 2004, you continue to be corrected and you continue to lie. I have called you out on several of your lies and you runaway.

The other side is worse. That is all you have? You and your fellow extremists on the left and right have nothing for America and my country. This country is much better off than the likes of you and your fellow haters on the right and left.

 

[Olde Europe]

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling-out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

That's more or less what you stated during our last debate about this issue.

Where is your respect for the Founders, Eye? Don't you think, putting politicians in charge of Impeachment and Trial, they were well aware both would inevitably end up to be partly "political"? Do you think they were so dumb as to be surprised by that? I think Leahy said it best (paraphrasing): It's not just Trump, it is also the Senate on Trial. That is so because the honorable Senators would have to justify their vote in light of the presented evidence, or, failing that, in light of withheld evidence, as seems more likely at the time. Can they come up with a vote they can, before their respective electorates, reasonably explain, so that the electorate can judge them on that score? That's what this is, and was always supposed to be. BTW, what you probably meant to say is "side effects". Counter-productive would mean bringing about the opposite of the desired effect, at least in my understanding. That's to say, as regards Impeachment and Trial, meant to curtail Executive corruption, would entail more corruption.

Yeah, I hear your complaint about the timing, Pelosi cynically withholding the Articles of Impeachment. They are "are burned out on the whole process." Really... That's the argument of a child bored in school, and irate that lessons are so, so long. If you read the trial rules, as approved by 100 Senators, for Clinton's trial, the Senate sent a message to the House they are now prepared to receive the House managers and the Articles, once these rules were approved. As we all know, the rules for the current trial are not yet in place, it isn't even known what negotiations will finally produce them, and the Senate isn't anywhere near ready to welcome the House managers. Really, whoever is complaining about Pelosi hasn't been paying attention.

All the while we are learning new details about Trump's and his administration's corruption, and, while Pelosi is sitting splendid in the eyes of every reasonable person on earth, Trump and McConnell are more looking like the cynical, corrupt thugs they truly are. Beholding serious criminality, no one begrudges anyone's decision to call the cops. No one would rule that, or the cops looking into it, "divisive". Just now that the House is moving to point out for all to see what Trump's MO is, has been all the time, some are starting to whine about "divisive". No one seems to realize that for that divisiveness there is a root cause - that would be Trump's habitual corruption - and letting him get away with it would be divisiveness squared.

Finally, that's "political". Cue the spluttering apoplexy. I know, the nation got used to regarding all things political as dirty, and those whining the loudest about "political" are those who are the most political of all. Politics is, at its best, the vigorous debate over who is to govern, in pursuit of which sets of aims, within what confines of acceptable behavior. There is nothing inevitably dirty about it, except for the filth peddlers who would denigrate politics wholesale for no reason other than to push through their own political aims. That is truly divisive, and that's what brings the whole edifice, the whole system of governance, into ill repute. Not those who have, up to this point, done a good job of keeping politics in reasonable confines during the Impeachment inquiry. I find, with every single part of your argument, you are exactly on the wrong track. I find that kind of amazing, and thoroughly unexpected from one who is all-in for the rule of law...

 

[lennypartiv]

The House doesn't have an impeachment "trial". That's the Senate's job.

You better get busy writing letters to Mitch McConnell. And good luck with that, you'll need it.

 

[Dragonlady]

they are playing both ends against the middle papa

~S~

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

Randi Rhodes was the best left wing hater in America, she has followers and she preaches nothing but hate. She wanted someone to shoot Bush, she claimed she was a victim of a violent attack she is a disgusting as they come. MSNBC has been a haven of false narratives and liberal propaganda. Maddow is is being sued for her lies. Your lies are just as misleading, Bush won the popular vote in 2004, you continue to be corrected and you continue to lie. I have called you out on several of your lies and you runaway.

The other side is worse. That is all you have? You and your fellow extremists on the left and right have nothing for America and my country. This country is much better off than the likes of you and your fellow haters on the right and left.

You have never called me out once for lying because I don’t lie.

Rachael Maddow is being sued for telling the truth about an OAN reporter who is also working for Sputnik News in Russia. The story is true and the law suit has been filed but they haven’t won the suit or proven she lied.

 

[Papageorgio]

To me it's like they divert us to trivial BS and keeps us from looking at what we need to really see.

Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and his "Welfare Queen" lies. Diverting the middle class from the amount of money he was funnelling to the wealthy, and that his much vaunted "robust economy" was purchased with huge deficits and public spending in the military sector, rather than by private industry growth.

Republicans have consistently sought election by denigrating Democrats as "communists", and currently "socialilsts". Their economic policies have exaserbated the gap between rich and poor, and resulted in two major crashes, one of which nearly took the down world economy. Trickle down is a fallacy, and tax cuts don't create jobs.

Republicans keep lying because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them. The bald truth is that the standard of living, health, and income of Americans are all declining. The scale has been utterly tipped in favour of the wealthy, and unless income levels for working Americans go up drastically, those things are not going to change.

If you think it is just one side, you are part of the problem and are not being honest.

There is no "left wing talk radio" which castigates and vilifies the right endlessly. There is no left wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or the other hate radio hosts whose sole job is to poison the well against the right, or a network like FOX News which promotes patently false narratives, like "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi", or Seth Rich, the "Caravan Invasions", and other lies to frighten the base.

There is only one party that denigrates the other with cries of "communists out to destroy America" and who have been preaching this message from the pulpits and across the airwaves owned by right wing billionaires, for the past 30+ years - ever since the Fairness Doctrine, which required equal time for both sides to broadcast, expired.

There is only one side which is leading the charge to gerrymander to their benefit, or which is purging the voter rolls in poor and democratic jurisdictions, moving polling booths out of poor areas into areas with no public transit, or deny voter registratons for "exact match".

There is only one side which has lost the popular vote in every Presidential election since 1992, and which consistently loses the popular vote for Congress too, but manages to find a way to power for both, but mostly, is the right wing talk radio in the "fly-over" states which has utterly poisoned the mid-west against Democrats.

Randi Rhodes was the best left wing hater in America, she has followers and she preaches nothing but hate. She wanted someone to shoot Bush, she claimed she was a victim of a violent attack she is a disgusting as they come. MSNBC has been a haven of false narratives and liberal propaganda. Maddow is is being sued for her lies. Your lies are just as misleading, Bush won the popular vote in 2004, you continue to be corrected and you continue to lie. I have called you out on several of your lies and you runaway.

The other side is worse. That is all you have? You and your fellow extremists on the left and right have nothing for America and my country. This country is much better off than the likes of you and your fellow haters on the right and left.

You have never called me out once for lying because I don’t lie.

Rachael Maddow is being sued for telling the truth about an OAN reporter who is also working for Sputnik News in Russia. The story is true and the law suit has been filed but they haven’t won the suit or proven she lied.

BS! You just did claiming Republicans have not won a popular vote for President since 1992 when Bush did won the popular vote in 2004. You lied, just one of many I caught you in and you ignored.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling-out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

That's more or less what you stated during our last debate about this issue.

Where is your respect for the Founders, Eye? Don't you think, putting politicians in charge of Impeachment and Trial, they were well aware both would inevitably end up to be partly "political"? Do you think they were so dumb as to be surprised by that? I think Leahy said it best (paraphrasing): It's not just Trump, it is also the Senate on Trial. That is so because the honorable Senators would have to justify their vote in light of the presented evidence, or, failing that, in light of withheld evidence, as seems more likely at the time. Can they come up with a vote they can, before their respective electorates, reasonably explain, so that the electorate can judge them on that score? That's what this is, and was always supposed to be. BTW, what you probably meant to say is "side effects". Counter-productive would mean bringing about the opposite of the desired effect, at least in my understanding. That's to say, as regards Impeachment and Trial, meant to curtail Executive corruption, would entail more corruption.

Yeah, I hear your complaint about the timing, Pelosi cynically withholding the Articles of Impeachment. They are "are burned out on the whole process." Really... That's the argument of a child bored in school, and irate that lessons are so, so long. If you read the trial rules, as approved by 100 Senators, for Clinton's trial, the Senate sent a message to the House they are now prepared to receive the House managers and the Articles, once these rules were approved. As we all know, the rules for the current trial are not yet in place, it isn't even known what negotiations will finally produce them, and the Senate isn't anywhere near ready to welcome the House managers. Really, whoever is complaining about Pelosi hasn't been paying attention.

All the while we are learning new details about Trump's and his administration's corruption, and, while Pelosi is sitting splendid in the eyes of every reasonable person on earth, Trump and McConnell are more looking like the cynical, corrupt thugs they truly are. Beholding serious criminality, no one begrudges anyone's decision to call the cops. No one would rule that, or the cops looking into it, "divisive". Just now that the House is moving to point out for all to see what Trump's MO is, has been all the time, some are starting to whine about "divisive". No one seems to realize that for that divisiveness there is a root cause - that would be Trump's habitual corruption - and letting him get away with it would be divisiveness squared.

Finally, that's "political". Cue the spluttering apoplexy. I know, the nation got used to regarding all things political as dirty, and those whining the loudest about "political" are those who are the most political of all. Politics is, at its best, the vigorous debate over who is to govern, in pursuit of which sets of aims, within what confines of acceptable behavior. There is nothing inevitably dirty about it, except for the filth peddlers who would denigrate politics wholesale for no reason other than to push through their own political aims. That is truly divisive, and that's what brings the whole edifice, the whole system of governance, into ill repute. Not those who have, up to this point, done a good job of keeping politics in reasonable confines during the Impeachment inquiry. I find, with every single part of your argument, you are exactly on the wrong track. I find that kind of amazing, and thoroughly unexpected from one who is all-in for the rule of law...

I think, that the crux of the matter, for me..is that I don't see the Congress as being an arbiter of law, in this case. I know it sounds odd..that the body that makes our laws is not competent to administer them. I think the Founding Father's screwed up..with the impeachment process. Allegations of wrong doing should have gone straight to the Supreme Court. Anyway, it is all moot. We have the system that we have.

You make a lot of statements..that are opinion..as though they are fact. Some I agree with..some..for me..the jury is still out. Pelosi sitting splendid in the eyes of every reasonable person on earth..is one that I have issue with. Keeping the politics of impeachment in reasonable confines is another. The House could have been fairer..they could have opened it up to Republicans..but here is the thing--their minds were already made up..and Impeachment was inevitable. Any investigation where the outcome is preordained is as tainted as a trial where acquittal is certain. Understand that I think Trump is guilty as can be--but the process IS tainted. True justice can only exist when there is impartial judgement...and that does not exist..in this impeachment process...at all.

BTW, I was against Clinton's impeachment as well. Despite the undisputed fact that he did break the law. I note that he did not get removed..as the Senate..in a purely partisan vote..refused to confirm.

Yes, Trump's stock in trade is divisiveness. He rode division straight into the White House--but impeachment has not changed that..it has exacerbated it. Without even holding out the hope that Trump will be kicked out. Many of us have notice this..and commented on it..it is not new.

In the end...I'm against things I see as meaningless...as far as results are concerned. I get that it's red meat to the Left..that it energizes the base..but Kabuki I said..and I stand by it.

I respect that you see me as on the wrong track...I feel the same way about impeachment..as it stands. That is, of course, subject to change.

 

[lennypartiv]

If this were a court proceeding..with all that means as to guarantee's of fairness...presentation of witnesses and evidence---I'd be right there with you. But it is not..it is purely political..masking itself as legal. Trying the case in the court of public opinion..with so much spin it dizzies the average person..is bad enough--when you add to it the shell game being played with the Senate regarding the presentation of the articles of impeachment, factor in the reality that the 'verdict' is preordained...yeah...Kabuki is a reasonable take. IMO. National Hygiene..from your point of view, maybe...from mine it's a months long campaign ad---had Pelosi presented the articles forthwith..and rolled with the inevitable acquittal..she might have been able to showcase how tainted the process was..but now? She's revealed as McConnell's natural counterweight..the same..in political game playing...except for the D in front of her name.
As I've pointed out many times..and as you well know..this is a purely political process..with possible legal consequences.

Oh yeah..counter-productive. I think that this stalling-out of the process is losing people's support for impeachment..not gaining it. Many I speak to are burned out on the whole process.."Fuck em' all" is a phrase I hear a lot. Pelosi never wanted this..but she got cornered--by her own party--now she's trying her best...but the country would have been better served..as well as possible justice---had they eschewed impeachment...and took it to the people and to the ballot box.

Impeachment is utterly divisive..and serves our nation poorly. It is gasoline poured on our cultural war--and I think that some in power..on the left---counted on this to mobilize their base..in an utterly cynical..and typically political machination.

This is not about rule of law....I so wish it was. I would love to see Trump in the docket..facing an impartial judge.

That's more or less what you stated during our last debate about this issue.

Where is your respect for the Founders, Eye? Don't you think, putting politicians in charge of Impeachment and Trial, they were well aware both would inevitably end up to be partly "political"? Do you think they were so dumb as to be surprised by that? I think Leahy said it best (paraphrasing): It's not just Trump, it is also the Senate on Trial. That is so because the honorable Senators would have to justify their vote in light of the presented evidence, or, failing that, in light of withheld evidence, as seems more likely at the time. Can they come up with a vote they can, before their respective electorates, reasonably explain, so that the electorate can judge them on that score? That's what this is, and was always supposed to be. BTW, what you probably meant to say is "side effects". Counter-productive would mean bringing about the opposite of the desired effect, at least in my understanding. That's to say, as regards Impeachment and Trial, meant to curtail Executive corruption, would entail more corruption.

Yeah, I hear your complaint about the timing, Pelosi cynically withholding the Articles of Impeachment. They are "are burned out on the whole process." Really... That's the argument of a child bored in school, and irate that lessons are so, so long. If you read the trial rules, as approved by 100 Senators, for Clinton's trial, the Senate sent a message to the House they are now prepared to receive the House managers and the Articles, once these rules were approved. As we all know, the rules for the current trial are not yet in place, it isn't even known what negotiations will finally produce them, and the Senate isn't anywhere near ready to welcome the House managers. Really, whoever is complaining about Pelosi hasn't been paying attention.

All the while we are learning new details about Trump's and his administration's corruption, and, while Pelosi is sitting splendid in the eyes of every reasonable person on earth, Trump and McConnell are more looking like the cynical, corrupt thugs they truly are. Beholding serious criminality, no one begrudges anyone's decision to call the cops. No one would rule that, or the cops looking into it, "divisive". Just now that the House is moving to point out for all to see what Trump's MO is, has been all the time, some are starting to whine about "divisive". No one seems to realize that for that divisiveness there is a root cause - that would be Trump's habitual corruption - and letting him get away with it would be divisiveness squared.

Finally, that's "political". Cue the spluttering apoplexy. I know, the nation got used to regarding all things political as dirty, and those whining the loudest about "political" are those who are the most political of all. Politics is, at its best, the vigorous debate over who is to govern, in pursuit of which sets of aims, within what confines of acceptable behavior. There is nothing inevitably dirty about it, except for the filth peddlers who would denigrate politics wholesale for no reason other than to push through their own political aims. That is truly divisive, and that's what brings the whole edifice, the whole system of governance, into ill repute. Not those who have, up to this point, done a good job of keeping politics in reasonable confines during the Impeachment inquiry. I find, with every single part of your argument, you are exactly on the wrong track. I find that kind of amazing, and thoroughly unexpected from one who is all-in for the rule of law...

I think, that the crux of the matter, for me..is that I don't see the Congress as being an arbiter of law, in this case. I know it sounds odd..that the body that makes our laws is not competent to administer them. I think the Founding Father's screwed up..with the impeachment process. Allegations of wrong doing should have gone straight to the Supreme Court. Anyway, it is all moot. We have the system that we have.

You make a lot of statements..that are opinion..as though they are fact. Some I agree with..some..for me..the jury is still out. Pelosi sitting splendid in the eyes of every reasonable person on earth..is one that I have issue with. Keeping the politics of impeachment in reasonable confines is another. The House could have been fairer..they could have opened it up to Republicans..but here is the thing--their minds were already made up..and Impeachment was inevitable. Any investigation where the outcome is preordained is as tainted as a trial where acquittal is certain. Understand that I think Trump is guilty as can be--but the process IS tainted. True justice can only exist when there is impartial judgement...and that does not exist..in this impeachment process...at all.

BTW, I was against Clinton's impeachment as well. Despite the undisputed fact that he did break the law. I note that he did not get removed..as the Senate..in a purely partisan vote..refused to confirm.

Yes, Trump's stock in trade is divisiveness. He rode division straight into the White House--but impeachment has not changed that..it has exacerbated it. Without even holding out the hope that Trump will be kicked out. Many of us have notice this..and commented on it..it is not new.

In the end...I'm against things I see as meaningless...as far as results are concerned. I get that it's red meat to the Left..that it energizes the base..but Kabuki I said..and I stand by it.

I respect that you see me as on the wrong track...I feel the same way about impeachment..as it stands. That is, of course, subject to change.

This way the Dem Senators who vote for removal face the wrath of the voters.