Not Our War

[Contumacious]

Its NOT OUR WAR. Rubio makes it clear that the U.S. is done negotiating Peace if neither side is willing to negotiate it.

PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT

Marco Rubio is a warmonger neocrazy SOB who should have never been part of the Trump Administration. Rubio is controlled by Lindsey Graham and the other 22 GOP Senators who answer to the War Profiteers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[eagle1462010]

PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT

Marco Rubio is a warmonger neocrazy SOB who should have never been part of the Trump Administration. Rubio is controlled by Lindsey Graham and the other 22 GOP Senators who answer to the War Profiteers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like we are done with the War in Ukraine.

Thought you didnt want War there. Why are you pissing into the wind?

 

[Contumacious]

Looks like we are done with the War in Ukraine.

Thought you didnt want War there. Why are you pissing into the wind?

Because they are lying like a rug.

Lindsey Graham and John McCain instigated the creation of the Ukranian CIA Colony and the deposition of Ukraine's duly elected President Viktor Yanukovych.


"On the frontline of the war in Ukraine, U.S. Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham voiced strong support for Ukrainian marines and sharply criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin, underscoring the gulf between leading Republicans in Congress and President-elect Donald Trump over Russia policy."

US senators praise Ukrainian marines, slam Putin

‘I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland,’ Lindsey Graham tells Ukrainian soldiers.

www.politico.eu

 

[kyzr]

Zavulon is Fake. Russia has indeed threatened Nukes over this, the same as they have since WWII.

I do believe in an actual War when faced with defeat they would use them.

Describe defeat in an actual war. If NATO puts troops in Ukraine?
IMHO not winning all of Ukraine is not a defeat for Russia.
Endless war is not a victory.

 

[Contumacious]

If NATO puts troops in Ukraine?

If NATO places troops in Ukraine that will be the beginning of a Nuclear WW3

 

[eagle1462010]

Describe defeat in an actual war. If NATO puts troops in Ukraine?
IMHO not winning all of Ukraine is not a defeat for Russia.
Endless war is not a victory.

There ground, air, and Naval forces dead. Our troops taking their country.

Typical War.

My point stands. Without direct military intervention by NATO Russia isnt leaving.

 

[kyzr]

There ground, air, and Naval forces dead. Our troops taking their country.
Typical War.
My point stands. Without direct military intervention by NATO Russia isnt leaving.

NATO would never invade Russia. If NATO troops enter Ukraine to battle Russians is pushing it.
Okay, so if the war stops today, and teach side claims the territory they occupy, would that end the fighting long term?
I say yes, its 2014 all over with different borders.

 

[eagle1462010]

NATO would never invade Russia. If NATO troops enter Ukraine to battle Russians is pushing it.
Okay, so if the war stops today, and teach side claims the territory they occupy, would that end the fighting long term?
I say yes, its 2014 all over with different borders.

Its a blood fued now. So I dont know. Ukraine may be ready to fight til the end. IDK

 

[Correll]

I don't disagree.

Good. It is good that we can agree that the war has become a meatgrinder with neither side having a clear path to success.

It would be pathetic, if we could not agree on the REALITY of the situation.

Russia is gaining ground at an extremely slow pace, and Ukraine doesn't want to give up the territory Russia has stolen because it doesn't benefit them.

IMO, it WOULD benefit Ukraine to give up on the lost territory, because it would end the fighting and dying and horrible cost of the war.

Yeah it is uncomfortable when it is framed how you really see things.

You, at the begining of this post, agreed with me that the war had become a meatgrinder withe neither side having a clear path to their goals.

So, my point that it is weird for you to try to frame that as just my perspective, is weird.

And I'm not uncomfortable dissussion how I "really see things" at all. I'm COMPLETELY comfortable having such a discussion, becuase imo, my position is massively superiour to yours, morally speaking.


So... you can drop that line of argument. That dog just does NOT hunt.

Let me guess, you're a Trump supporter?

Very much so. And it looks to me like he really tried. That is what I wanted to see happen, I'm sorry it didn't work, and IMO, that was better than Biden or Harris, who would have just been happy to keep pissing away Ukrainian lives without a care in the world.

Yep, you think of someone invades your country you should just give up whatever they take if things become a meat grinder. Reward the invader.

Your desire to spin this, instead of discussing it seriously, not a good look on you.

This war has been going on for 3 years. Hundreds of thousands of people have died. THe ukrainians are losing ground on a daily basis. Continuing the war is not to the benefit of the ukrainians.

That is the REALITY of the situtation. YOur spin doesn't change that. YOur attempts to "Frame" the issue to make me look bad, doesn't change that.

You think Russia should just be awarded the land they stole by invading, which isn't how even Republicans thought until very recently.

I asked you a serious question. Why do you feel that you have to misrepresent my position, before you can attack it?

Come on. YOu can do it. Consider the implications of your actions.


What does your behavior mean, about how your own brain, sees your position on this issue?

 

[Concerned American]

There ground, air, and Naval forces dead. Our troops taking their country.

Typical War.

My point stands. Without direct military intervention by NATO Russia isnt leaving.

Russia will never leave the ground east of Kharkiv south to Zaporizhzhya and east of the
Dneiper river. That is their highway to Mariupol and the Crimean peninsula. They want that unfettered access to the Black Sea. The US will allow them to have it because they can lock them up at the straits of Bosporus.

 

[eagle1462010]

Russia will never leave the ground east of Kharkiv south to Zaporizhzhya and east of the
Dneiper river. That is their highway to Mariupol and the Crimean peninsula. They want that unfettered access to the Black Sea. The US will allow them to have it because they can lock them up at the straits of Bosporus.

Russia has been courting Turkey over this.

We have issues with Turkey. They are behind ISIS and now basically control Syria.

 

[Concerned American]

Russia has been courting Turkey over this.

We have issues with Turkey. They are behind ISIS and now basically control Syria.

Correct, Turkey is not sure who they are courting. We still have an air base in Incirclik AFAIK, but Turkey keeps waffling and acting like they are ready to kick us out.

 

[AveMarica]

We Ukraine. LMAO. Get your programmer to fix your conversation. You went from Ohio to now living in Ukraine.

Nonsensical conspiracy theories is quite common among low thinkers, this comment isn't a surprise.

Ukraine has every right to fight to the last man. You can join them and dye with them.

No thanks, but I'm happy that my country is supporting their right to defend their country from foreign invasion despite the sniveling cowards among us saying Ukraine should just concede their land and future political direction because said pantywaists are worried about escalation.

Yes I just pissed myself in fear of Russia.
The bear scared me. Oh wait that is European countries who have not armed up.

You're the one letting fear dictate your worldviews.

Perhaps we can send them some depends.

Go to your closet and get some old man.

 

[Correll]

...


No thanks, but I'm happy that my country is supporting their right to defend their country from foreign invasion despite the sniveling cowards among us saying Ukraine should just concede their land and future political direction because said pantywaists are worried about escalation.....

But, You've agreed that the war has turned into a meatgrinder which neither side have a clear path to achieving their goals.

So, Ukraine isn't likely to get those lands back.

So, in that case, it is just pissing away men for no good reason.

 

[AveMarica]

IMO, it WOULD benefit Ukraine to give up on the lost territory, because it would end the fighting and dying and horrible cost of the war.

This is incredibly short sighted. Russia attacked in 2014 and Ukraine lost territory. Then it happens again, and you think they would be best to concede. I assume when it happens again you'll say the same thing just appease appease and hope they don't do it again, until there is no more Ukraine. It also comes with Russia controlling their political alignments, which is not in their best interest.

You, at the begining of this post, agreed with me that the war had become a meatgrinder withe neither side having a clear path to their goals.

So, my point that it is weird for you to try to frame that as just my perspective, is weird.

No, your perspective was about ceding territory to appease an attacked to gain peace.

And I'm not uncomfortable dissussion how I "really see things" at all. I'm COMPLETELY comfortable having such a discussion, becuase imo, my position is massively superiour to yours, morally speaking.

It is not immoral to support a country's right to defend themselves from invasion. It is their choice. It is also taking a toll on the aggressor. It is immoral to withhold support from them which will cost them even more lives on the battlefield defending their country.

So... you can drop that line of argument. That dog just does NOT hunt.

Sure it does. A WW1 type standoff benefits Ukraine if they have the continued support of their allies because it is far more painful to Russia economically.

Very much so. And it looks to me like he really tried. That is what I wanted to see happen, I'm sorry it didn't work, and IMO, that was better than Biden or Harris, who would have just been happy to keep pissing away Ukrainian lives without a care in the world.

What a surprise. A Trump adorer who just gives a pass to Trump's promise that he could end the war in one day. Oh well, he tried. You're too blinded by partisan loyalty to realize how ridiculous you sound.

We're not pissing away Ukrainian lives, they are choosing to fight for their sovereignty. Their choice. Ukraine could surrender if they wanted.

Your desire to spin this, instead of discussing it seriously, not a good look on you.

This war has been going on for 3 years. Hundreds of thousands of people have died. THe ukrainians are losing ground on a daily basis. Continuing the war is not to the benefit of the ukrainians.

That is the REALITY of the situtation. YOur spin doesn't change that. YOur attempts to "Frame" the issue to make me look bad, doesn't change that.

You're saying that because it is uncomfortable for you to be exposed in this manner. You want them to give up, you don't care about their right to sovereignty thus support the rights of invading countries to take what they want. It is immoral of you. I know you hate to see it like that but is what is it, you're basically saying Russia should just get the rewards of land for invading. Disgusting, and un-American.

I asked you a serious question. Why do you feel that you have to misrepresent my position, before you can attack it?

Come on. YOu can do it. Consider the implications of your actions.


What does your behavior mean, about how your own brain, sees your position on this issue?

Spinning your way out of seeing what you really represent won't work. I see you, and history will judge all of you who think Russia should just be granted land, resources, and people for invading.

 

[AveMarica]

But, You've agreed that the war has turned into a meatgrinder which neither side have a clear path to achieving their goals.

So, Ukraine isn't likely to get those lands back.

So, in that case, it is just pissing away men for no good reason.

You fail, yet again.

It is possible that Russia cannot support this war for many years due to economic and political challenges. The material and personnel exchange favors Ukraine. They will always have this aggressive imperialist neighbor that thinks Ukraine belongs to them, the more they can reduce Russia militarily, politically, and economically the better position they will be in going forward. As pointed out already, Russia will likely rearm and do it again, so negotiating positions that dictate their defense policy and alignment, as well as removing sanctions on Russia, are good reasons.

 

[eagle1462010]

Nonsensical conspiracy theories is quite common among low thinkers, this comment isn't a surprise.


No thanks, but I'm happy that my country is supporting their right to defend their country from foreign invasion despite the sniveling cowards among us saying Ukraine should just concede their land and future political direction because said pantywaists are worried about escalation.


You're the one letting fear dictate your worldviews.


Go to your closet and get some old man.

You will cause WWIII.

Starting World Wars is what Europe is famous for

 

[Correll]

This is incredibly short sighted. Russia attacked in 2014 and Ukraine lost territory. Then it happens again, and you think they would be best to concede. I assume when it happens again you'll say the same thing just appease appease and hope they don't do it again, until there is no more Ukraine. It also comes with Russia controlling their political alignments, which is not in their best interest.

Russia's military has been devestaged by this war. And I would hope that Europe, with all their talk, will help the ukrainians rearm FASTER and BETTER than the russians can.

The idea that they would be up for more meatgrinder in short order, seems,... overly pessimistic.

No, your perspective was about ceding territory to appease an attacked to gain peace.

Nope. YOu were and continue to be kind of... hestitant about the fact that we both AGREE on the REALITY of the situation, ie that the war has become a meatgrinder with neither side having a clear path to their goals.

It is not immoral to support a country's right to defend themselves from invasion.

It is if the real reason for the support, is to use them as proxy's to fight and weaken your enemy, even though you know that they are NOT going to achieve their war goals.

It is their choice.

Cop out. YOu have admitted that they are unlikely to achieve their goals. Supporting them in a fools errand, when the cost is measured in thousand sof human lives is morally wrong.

It is also taking a toll on the aggressor. It is immoral to withhold support from them which will cost them even more lives on the battlefield defending their country.

The ukrainians are also losing men and material. THey are losing GROUND. Them breaking is always a real possiblity.

What a surprise. A Trump adorer who just gives a pass to Trump's promise that he could end the war in one day. Oh well, he tried. You're too blinded by partisan loyalty to realize how ridiculous you sound.

I'm ok with taking that hit, ie he has failed to "end the war in one day".

He tried. That is all I could reasonably expect. Better that than the Biden or Harris, happily and endless supporting a meatgrinder with men, women and children dying on a daily basis.


IMO, the fact that your side sees this as a fine GOTCHA moment, while my side sees this as a human tragedy, works for me. Those in America that agree with you about what is important here, can line up with you and vote for your side, and those that agree with me, can vote MAGA.

We're not pissing away Ukrainian lives, they are choosing to fight for their sovereignty. Their choice. Ukraine could surrender if they wanted.

Cop out. And a misdirection. No one is talking "surrender". EVERYTIME, you get deceptive, you admit that you know that your position on this issue is weak, if not outright wrong.

You're saying that because it is uncomfortable for you to be exposed in this manner. You want them to give up, you don't care about their right to sovereignty thus support the rights of invading countries to take what they want. It is immoral of you. I know you hate to see it like that but is what is it, you're basically saying Russia should just get the rewards of land for invading. Disgusting, and un-American.

Nope. I am completely comfortable discussing this issue and being honest about my position.

MY position is the morally correct one. I'm not the one hiding behind "ukrainian's choice" or bullshit like "surrender" or "appeasement".


YOU'RE the one that seems uncomfortable being honest about what is happening and/or your position on it.

Spinning your way out of seeing what you really represent won't work. I see you, and history will judge all of you who think Russia should just be granted land, resources, and people for invading.

And again, instead of arguing your position seriously or honestly, you have to lie about mine.


That's your brain dealing with the fact that it knows that your position is false.


The reality of the situation, the REALITY of it, that we agree on, is that the war in a meatgrinder and UKRAINE has NO clear path to pushing Russia out of ukrainian territory.


INdeed, Ukraine is slowly LOSING ground on a daily basis.


To discuss a possibly deal, to end the fighting is the right policy.

 

[TimFitz]

We are fighting Russia constantly on a geopolitical front because they are aggressive and expansionist. It is more efficient use of defense dollars to send a Javelin to Ukraine for them to destroy a Russian tank.

We would have far less to worry about regarding Russia had we supported Ukraine’s right to self determination, instead of siding with Putin.

“It is more efficient use of defense dollars to send a Javelin to Ukraine for them to destroy a Russian tank.”

Tell it to Trump. He is the roadblock to that.

Yeah the fear mongering angle is popular. We cannot support Ukraine because someday you'll see WW3. Someday. Trust me. Fear fear fear.

Well, that is the lesson of the failure of isolationism. History has long since proven that.

Meanwhile every red line announced by Lazarov (or whatever his name is) has been crossed, yet you blathering dipshits are still eating up all the fear mongering to let it dictate your views on foreign policy.

The man’s name name is Lavrov. He is the Foreign Minister. Putin’s line is his line.


You seem to be totally ignorant regarding the Ukraine war, and Trump’s siding with Moscow while trying to pretend he is a peacemaker.

Trump managed to divide us from our allies, side with Moscow, fail to deliver any “peace”, dispite his numerous attempts to bully Ukraine into taking a deal on Moscow’s terms.

 

[Correll]

You fail, yet again.

Do I? Let's check your supporting argument.

It is possible that Russia cannot support this war for many years due to economic and political challenges.

This is true. That being said, how many years are you thinking of? It's been three. Are you thinking another 3? Or more? Ten? I really hope not ten. That would devestate Ukraine CULTURALLY and Demographically, BEYOND the military and economic effects.

The material and personnel exchange favors Ukraine.

Well, sort of. ON the other hand, RUSSIA is far bigger, so they can afford more losses.

So, a war of attrition, to see who runs out of men first? Ugh. That's horrific. And risky.

They will always have this aggressive imperialist neighbor that thinks Ukraine belongs to them, the more they can reduce Russia militarily, politically, and economically the better position they will be in going forward.

OR, they could try diplomacy. Worked for Findland during the cold war.

As pointed out already, Russia will likely rearm and do it again,

And without any aid from Europe or America, so.... Ukraine should be ahead in that game forever.

so negotiating positions that dictate their defense policy and alignment,

Odd you assume that those will be agreed to. I mean, are you pretending to not know how the concept of DEALS work?

Cause I've dealt with many lefties that pretend to be that stupid or worse. Are you stooping to that level?

as well as removing sanctions on Russia, are good reasons.

Not sure I take your meaning here.