Humanity
Gold Member
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Can you please provide a link showing that Israel is illegitimate and has no legal standing.
No Palestinian State
- Thread starter MJB12741
- Start date
Can you please provide a link showing that Israel is illegitimate and has no legal standing.
2005 when Israel left gaza willingly and were bombarded with rockets all day every day. That was the first step on the road to peace agreed in 1999 at Oslo. So what have the Palestinians done again towards a permanent peace ?
Humanity
Gold Member
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Unfortunately Israel leaving Gaza is not a real two state solution is it...
That was Israel pulling out of territory that does not belong to them... As Israel needs to pull out of all occupied territory.
There can then be proper discussions on a two state solution.
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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I can find nothing documenting where Israel legally acquired the land that it sits on. Everything shows that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
That's because 'acquiring land' is a Tinmore pre - requisite. You made up that pre requisite.
OF course Israel has legal standing. Your pre requisites and rules don't apply in the real world, remember?
Tinmore cannot prove anything. He is a compulsive liar who repeats the same lies over and over, even after they have been refuted 100 times.
bendog
Diamond Member
Netanyahu to the world "aber nein!"
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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The Avalon Project Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement February 24 1949
The Avalon Project Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement March 23 1949
The Avalon Project Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement April 3 1949
The Avalon Project Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement July 20 1949
LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
P F Tinmore
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There is a lot of information in those agreements. Perhaps you should read them. Do you want me to hold your hand?LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
I've read them many times before. Nothing in there says what you claim..There is a lot of information in those agreements. Perhaps you should read them. Do you want me to hold your hand?LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
Also, YOU made the claim and I asked you to back it up. So far, nothing at all.
Try again.
- Thread starter
- #33
When did Israel's ancient land become this "Palestinian land" that Israel is stealing? Let us ask Tinmore.
RoccoR
Gold Member
toastman, et al,
He does this all the time.
He believes that the territory in which the former Mandate applied, determined by the Allied Power, referred to as Palestine, was (in 1949 truce periods) an Arab Palestinian sovereignty designation. But, in the time of the Armistice Agreements, nothing could be further from the truth.
The idea that the UN or the Allied Powers considered the territory a state, under a government related to the Hostile Arab Palestinian Movement is ridiculous. The Armistice Agreements clearly show that the Israelis controlled a part of the territory, and the aggressor Arab States (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) controlled other territories. The Arab Palestinians, displaced or not, had not voice in the Armistice arrangements (or the subsequent Peace Treaties) because they did not control any territory. The West Bank was under Jordanian occupation and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian Occupation.
Most Respectfully,
R
He does this all the time.
(COMMENT)
He believes that the territory in which the former Mandate applied, determined by the Allied Power, referred to as Palestine, was (in 1949 truce periods) an Arab Palestinian sovereignty designation. But, in the time of the Armistice Agreements, nothing could be further from the truth.
EXCERPT UK MEMORANDUM NAMES COMMISSION AS SUCCESSOR GOVERNMENT
UN Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948
UN Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948
"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.
"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.
"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.
"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.
"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.
The idea that the UN or the Allied Powers considered the territory a state, under a government related to the Hostile Arab Palestinian Movement is ridiculous. The Armistice Agreements clearly show that the Israelis controlled a part of the territory, and the aggressor Arab States (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) controlled other territories. The Arab Palestinians, displaced or not, had not voice in the Armistice arrangements (or the subsequent Peace Treaties) because they did not control any territory. The West Bank was under Jordanian occupation and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian Occupation.
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
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In the preamble all of the agreements have this statement:I've read them many times before. Nothing in there says what you claim..There is a lot of information in those agreements. Perhaps you should read them. Do you want me to hold your hand?LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
Also, YOU made the claim and I asked you to back it up. So far, nothing at all.
Try again.
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;
This one sentence says a few things.
They call for peace "in Palestine." They did not say peace in Israel or Israel/Palestine. Palestine was there. Where was Israel?
An armistice was called by UN Security Council resolution. An armistice is when hostilities cease without anyone surrendering. Nobody lost the 1948 war.
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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The Armistice Agreements clearly show that the Israelis controlled a part of the territory,...
Controlled does not mean won. An occupation controls territory.
'One of the most important problems which must be cleared up be-
fore a lasting peace can be established in Palestine is the question of
the disposition of the more than 700,000 Arab refugees who during the
Palestine conflict fled from their homes in what is now Israeli occupied
territory and are at present living as refugees in Arab Palestine and
the neighboring Arab states.
FRUS Foreign relations of the United States 1949. The Near East South Asia and Africa Israel
fore a lasting peace can be established in Palestine is the question of
the disposition of the more than 700,000 Arab refugees who during the
Palestine conflict fled from their homes in what is now Israeli occupied
territory and are at present living as refugees in Arab Palestine and
the neighboring Arab states.
FRUS Foreign relations of the United States 1949. The Near East South Asia and Africa Israel
Yes I know. He can never accept that he's wrong
Where was Israel ? Uhhh, the agreements are BETWEEN Israel and 4 other countries. Why wasn't there any agreement between Israel and Palestine Tinmore ?In the preamble all of the agreements have this statement:I've read them many times before. Nothing in there says what you claim..There is a lot of information in those agreements. Perhaps you should read them. Do you want me to hold your hand?LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
Also, YOU made the claim and I asked you to back it up. So far, nothing at all.
Try again.
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;
This one sentence says a few things.
They call for peace "in Palestine." They did not say peace in Israel or Israel/Palestine. Palestine was there. Where was Israel?
An armistice was called by UN Security Council resolution. An armistice is when hostilities cease without anyone surrendering. Nobody lost the 1948 war.
Nothing in your post suggests that Israel is sitting on Palestinian land.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Let's answer one question at a time.
There are still two Armistice Agreements in play (between Israel and the States of Lebanon and Syria). But as pertaining to the more contemporary designation of "Palestine," the most appropriate documents are the Treaties of Peace between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom (Jordan) (1995) and Arab Republic (Egypt)(1979).
The Palestinians had no voice in the treaties. There was no boundary established for Palestine. And the treaties were executed with prejudice for the Arab Palestinians.
As to where Israel was at the time of the Armistice Arrangements (February and July 1949) between Israel and the 4 Arab States: You should note that the Security Council 69 Resolution (1949) of 4 March 1949, ---
Having received and considered the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/
1. Decides in its judgement that Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly,
2. Recommends to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.
While the Arab League was fighting, Israel was working to assure its recognition and independence in the or the Armistice Arrangements. The Palestinians were doing nothing.
The FRUS cited is an opinion to the "Question of Palestine."
But as to refugees in the West Bank and Gaza Strip: UNHCR Convention and Protocol of Refugees.
Most Respectfully,
R
Let's answer one question at a time.
(COMMENT)
There are still two Armistice Agreements in play (between Israel and the States of Lebanon and Syria). But as pertaining to the more contemporary designation of "Palestine," the most appropriate documents are the Treaties of Peace between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom (Jordan) (1995) and Arab Republic (Egypt)(1979).
- The War is over between Israel and Jordan --- as it pertains to the West Bank.
- The War is over between Israel and Egypt --- as it pertains to the Gaza Strip.
With Jordan:
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
With Egypt:1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
The Palestinians had no voice in the treaties. There was no boundary established for Palestine. And the treaties were executed with prejudice for the Arab Palestinians.
As to where Israel was at the time of the Armistice Arrangements (February and July 1949) between Israel and the 4 Arab States: You should note that the Security Council 69 Resolution (1949) of 4 March 1949, ---
The Security Council,
Having received and considered the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/
1. Decides in its judgement that Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly,
2. Recommends to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.
While the Arab League was fighting, Israel was working to assure its recognition and independence in the or the Armistice Arrangements. The Palestinians were doing nothing.
(COMMENT)
The FRUS cited is an opinion to the "Question of Palestine."
But as to refugees in the West Bank and Gaza Strip: UNHCR Convention and Protocol of Refugees.
C. This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:
There are no longer 700,000 refugees. The first mass change happened in 1950 when the West Bank Palestinian became Jordanians under the right of self-determination and representation in the Jordanian Parliament. The second time is when, in 1988, the State of Palestine was proclaimed in an accepted Declaration of Independence.(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; or
(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or
(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or
(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution; or
(5) He can no longer, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, continue to refuse to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a refugee falling under section A(1) of this article who is able to invoke compelling reasons arising out of previous persecution for refusing to avail himself of the protection of the country of nationality;
(6) Being a person who has no nationality he is, because of the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, able to return to the country of his former habitual residence;
(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or
(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or
(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution; or
(5) He can no longer, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, continue to refuse to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a refugee falling under section A(1) of this article who is able to invoke compelling reasons arising out of previous persecution for refusing to avail himself of the protection of the country of nationality;
(6) Being a person who has no nationality he is, because of the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, able to return to the country of his former habitual residence;
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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Don't get excited. I was just trying to keep it simple for you. Here is more.Where was Israel ? Uhhh, the agreements are BETWEEN Israel and 4 other countries. Why wasn't there any agreement between Israel and Palestine Tinmore ?In the preamble all of the agreements have this statement:I've read them many times before. Nothing in there says what you claim..There is a lot of information in those agreements. Perhaps you should read them. Do you want me to hold your hand?LOL ! You mean the agreements the were between Israel and four other countries, but NOT between 'Palestine'??
Where in those links does it say that Israel sits on Palestinian land.
This should be interesting
Also, YOU made the claim and I asked you to back it up. So far, nothing at all.
Try again.
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;
This one sentence says a few things.
They call for peace "in Palestine." They did not say peace in Israel or Israel/Palestine. Palestine was there. Where was Israel?
An armistice was called by UN Security Council resolution. An armistice is when hostilities cease without anyone surrendering. Nobody lost the 1948 war.
Nothing in your post suggests that Israel is sitting on Palestinian land.
The Avalon Project Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement July 20 1949
Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line...
Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line...
And more.
The Avalon Project Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement March 23 1949
1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.
1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.
And more.
The Avalon Project Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement February 24 1949
2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...
...of this Agreement; and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;...
2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.
2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...
...of this Agreement; and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;...
2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.
And more specific about land.
The Avalon Project Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement February 24 1949
3. It is further recognized that rights, claims or interests of a nonmilitary character in the area of Palestine covered by this Agreement...
4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.
The Avalon Project Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement April 3 1949
d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...
3. It is further recognized that rights, claims or interests of a nonmilitary character in the area of Palestine covered by this Agreement...
4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.
The Avalon Project Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement April 3 1949
d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...
BTW, there was no mention of a place called Israel. No land or borders for Israel were mentioned either.
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