Coloradomtnman
Rational and proud of it.
I've seen posted a few times that civilizations or cultures that have ever accepted homosexuality as normal have gone out of existence. Most recently I saw this posted by Katzndogs:
"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships has survived."
This is a statement that displays a fundamental ignorance of history, how cultures behave, and human nature.
Let me just begin with history.
No culture which has existed in the past exists today. None. Zero. Some because of genocide, some because of reduced population and assimilation into larger cultures, and all the rest because cultures evolve. Were the Spartans of ancient Greece exterminated because of widespread homosexuality? No. Did all of the Spartans slowly die off because of homosexuality? No. Are there descendents of those homosexual Spartans that exist today? Yes. But Sparta as it existed 2,500 years ago no longer exists because, like all cultures, it evolved. The ancient Greek cultures evolved. The Romans, the ancient Chinese, the Egyptians, the Jews. None of those cultures exist today as they once did.
Ok. Now if we were to change the word culture into civilization to redefine the argument, it is no less flawed. In fact, the argument becomes incoherent. Taking again the Spartans as an example: that the Spartan civilization no longer exists is true; however, neither do the ancient Greek civilization, nor the Persian, the Egyptian, the Roman, the Chinese dynasties, the ancient Americans, nor even the British Empire or any other civilization. Were any of them brought down by homosexuality being culturally accepted? No? Yet there is still a nation called Greece, and there is still Iran, Egypt, China, Rome which burned still stands, and the ancient Americans were destroyed by more powerful empires not homosexuality. The UK is currently one of our closest allies.
What I would guess is the people who actually have this irrational fear - that homosexuality rots cultures and civilizations - really fear that the United States will crumble, either through this so-called homosexual threat or perhaps some other reason. This fear is, needless to say, well founded. At some point the United States won't exist anymore, not like it did. The ancient Egyptians' empire lasted for thousands of years, yet no longer does it exist as it had. It is the nature of cultures to evolve and of civilizations to rise and fall on the tides of history. That which has come before will again be no more.
I think what these people really fear is that the US is leaving them behind. As cultures and civilizations come and go, and more and more history is recorded, people, as a group, have a clearer understanding of history. We've come to see that treating others as second class citizens or as inferior is wrong and detrimental to the well-being of a society as a whole. Our country, as it evolves, is becoming more accepting of minorities. It is also becoming more brown and liberal. In 50 years, if trends continue, white people will be a minority in the US. Christianity or perhaps religiosity may become a feature of only a minority.
History shows that, although it isn't a smooth trajectory, human civilizations are progressing into a more liberal ideology. Its called progress and the term progressive reflects that. Conservatives cling to traditional cultural values, but culture evolves and tradition disappears into the mists of the past. New traditions form and the progressives of today become the conservatives of tomorrow. That is human nature.
To be against the eventual acceptance of homosexuality as a norm for our society is to go against history, to try to stop something that is unstoppable, and only, at best, slows the wheels of progress as they roll over you.
"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships has survived."
This is a statement that displays a fundamental ignorance of history, how cultures behave, and human nature.
Let me just begin with history.
No culture which has existed in the past exists today. None. Zero. Some because of genocide, some because of reduced population and assimilation into larger cultures, and all the rest because cultures evolve. Were the Spartans of ancient Greece exterminated because of widespread homosexuality? No. Did all of the Spartans slowly die off because of homosexuality? No. Are there descendents of those homosexual Spartans that exist today? Yes. But Sparta as it existed 2,500 years ago no longer exists because, like all cultures, it evolved. The ancient Greek cultures evolved. The Romans, the ancient Chinese, the Egyptians, the Jews. None of those cultures exist today as they once did.
Ok. Now if we were to change the word culture into civilization to redefine the argument, it is no less flawed. In fact, the argument becomes incoherent. Taking again the Spartans as an example: that the Spartan civilization no longer exists is true; however, neither do the ancient Greek civilization, nor the Persian, the Egyptian, the Roman, the Chinese dynasties, the ancient Americans, nor even the British Empire or any other civilization. Were any of them brought down by homosexuality being culturally accepted? No? Yet there is still a nation called Greece, and there is still Iran, Egypt, China, Rome which burned still stands, and the ancient Americans were destroyed by more powerful empires not homosexuality. The UK is currently one of our closest allies.
What I would guess is the people who actually have this irrational fear - that homosexuality rots cultures and civilizations - really fear that the United States will crumble, either through this so-called homosexual threat or perhaps some other reason. This fear is, needless to say, well founded. At some point the United States won't exist anymore, not like it did. The ancient Egyptians' empire lasted for thousands of years, yet no longer does it exist as it had. It is the nature of cultures to evolve and of civilizations to rise and fall on the tides of history. That which has come before will again be no more.
I think what these people really fear is that the US is leaving them behind. As cultures and civilizations come and go, and more and more history is recorded, people, as a group, have a clearer understanding of history. We've come to see that treating others as second class citizens or as inferior is wrong and detrimental to the well-being of a society as a whole. Our country, as it evolves, is becoming more accepting of minorities. It is also becoming more brown and liberal. In 50 years, if trends continue, white people will be a minority in the US. Christianity or perhaps religiosity may become a feature of only a minority.
History shows that, although it isn't a smooth trajectory, human civilizations are progressing into a more liberal ideology. Its called progress and the term progressive reflects that. Conservatives cling to traditional cultural values, but culture evolves and tradition disappears into the mists of the past. New traditions form and the progressives of today become the conservatives of tomorrow. That is human nature.
To be against the eventual acceptance of homosexuality as a norm for our society is to go against history, to try to stop something that is unstoppable, and only, at best, slows the wheels of progress as they roll over you.
