Next time you hear someone criticizing socialism...

[danielpalos]

Can anyone know the number of different socialist organizations exist the USA or in the world today? Do they all lead to communism?

No, they lead to socialism. What's your point?

We should insist on Pareto Optimal socialism.

 

[P@triot]

Is Social Security successful?

Big time. It's been a fucking disaster. It's a joke. And only the parasites like it.

 

[P@triot]

You mean, before 1929?

Yes, I mean before 1929. For thousands of years, mankind wallowed in misery. Shortly after the U.S. declares independence from England in the Revolutionary War, we see the rise of the "industrial revolution". That's not a coincidence, no matter how desperately the left wants to believe that it was.

Freedom facilitates innovation.

 

[danielpalos]

You mean, before 1929?

Yes, I mean before 1929. For thousands of years, mankind wallowed in misery. Shortly after the U.S. declares independence from England in the Revolutionary War, we see the rise of the "industrial revolution". That's not a coincidence, no matter how desperately the left wants to believe that it was.

Freedom facilitates innovation.

It took the socialism of equality not capitalism.

 

[P@triot]

You mean, before 1929?

Yes, I mean before 1929. For thousands of years, mankind wallowed in misery. Shortly after the U.S. declares independence from England in the Revolutionary War, we see the rise of the "industrial revolution". That's not a coincidence, no matter how desperately the left wants to believe that it was.

Freedom facilitates innovation.

It took the socialism of equality not capitalism.

No snowflake...it took the freedom of capitalism. You can’t rewrite history no matter how hard you try.

 

[regent]

You mean, before 1929?

Yes, I mean before 1929. For thousands of years, mankind wallowed in misery. Shortly after the U.S. declares independence from England in the Revolutionary War, we see the rise of the "industrial revolution". That's not a coincidence, no matter how desperately the left wants to believe that it was.

Freedom facilitates innovation.

The innovation was stealing Britain's plans for the machines used for the Industrial Revolution. That innovation led to America developing the machines for their own industrial revolution.

 

[Rustic]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.
View attachment 245504 View attachment 245506 View attachment 245505

To the extent that capitalism’s problems – inequality, instability (cycles/crises), etc. – stem in part from its production relationships, reforms focused exclusively on regulating or supplanting markets will not succeed in solving them. For example, Keynesian monetary policies (focused on raising or lowering the quantity of money in circulation and, correspondingly, interest rates) do not touch the employer-employee relationship, however much their variations redistribute wealth, regulate markets, or displace markets in favor of state-administered investment decisions. Likewise, Keynesian fiscal policies (raising or lowering taxes and government spending) do not address the employer-employee relationship.

Keynesian policies also never ended the cyclical instability of capitalism. The New Deal and European social democracy left capitalism in place in both state and private units (enterprises) of production notwithstanding their massive reform agendas and programs. They thereby left capitalist employers facing the incentives and receiving the resources (profits) to evade, weaken and eventually dissolve most of those programs.

It is far better not to distribute wealth unequally in the first place than to re-distribute it after to undo the inequality. For example, FDR proposed in 1944 that the government establish a maximum income alongside a minimum wage; that is one among the various ways inequality could be limited and thereby redistribution avoided. Efforts to redistribute encounter evasions, oppositions, and failures that compound the effects of unequal distribution itself. Social peace and cohesion are the victims of redistribution sooner or later. Reforming markets while leaving the relations/organization of capitalist production unchanged is like redistribution. Just as redistribution schemes fail to solve the problems rooted in distribution, market-focused reforms fail to solve the problems rooted in production.

Since 2008, capitalism has showed us all yet again its deep and unsolved problems of cyclical instability, deepening inequality and the injustices they both entail. Their persistence mirrors that of the capitalist organization of production. To successfully confront and solve the problems of economic cycles, income and wealth inequality, and so on, we need to go beyond the capitalist employer-employee system of production. The democratization of enterprises – transitioning from employer-employee hierarchies to worker cooperatives – is a key way available here and now to realize the change we need.

Worker coops democratically decide the distribution of income (wages, bonuses, benefits, profit shares, etc.) among their members. No small group of owners and the boards of directors they choose would, as in capitalist corporations, make such decisions. Thus, for example, it would be far less likely that a few individuals in a worker coop would earn millions while most others could not afford to send children to college. A democratic worker coop decision on the distribution of enterprise income would be far less unequal than what typifies capitalist enterprises. A socialism for the 21st century could and should include the transition from a capitalist to a worker-coop-based economic system as central to its commitments to less inequality and less social conflict over redistribution.

Capitalism Is Not the “Market System”



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Angelo

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Socialism only appeals to control freaks

 

[the other mike]

Socialism only appeals to control freaks

Control freaks like the IMF ?

 

[danielpalos]

You mean, before 1929?

Yes, I mean before 1929. For thousands of years, mankind wallowed in misery. Shortly after the U.S. declares independence from England in the Revolutionary War, we see the rise of the "industrial revolution". That's not a coincidence, no matter how desperately the left wants to believe that it was.

Freedom facilitates innovation.

It took the socialism of equality not capitalism.

No snowflake...it took the freedom of capitalism. You can’t rewrite history no matter how hard you try.

I actually read history books. You merely repeat historical mistakes and claim you are not really like that, afterward.

 

[danielpalos]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.
View attachment 245504 View attachment 245506 View attachment 245505

To the extent that capitalism’s problems – inequality, instability (cycles/crises), etc. – stem in part from its production relationships, reforms focused exclusively on regulating or supplanting markets will not succeed in solving them. For example, Keynesian monetary policies (focused on raising or lowering the quantity of money in circulation and, correspondingly, interest rates) do not touch the employer-employee relationship, however much their variations redistribute wealth, regulate markets, or displace markets in favor of state-administered investment decisions. Likewise, Keynesian fiscal policies (raising or lowering taxes and government spending) do not address the employer-employee relationship.

Keynesian policies also never ended the cyclical instability of capitalism. The New Deal and European social democracy left capitalism in place in both state and private units (enterprises) of production notwithstanding their massive reform agendas and programs. They thereby left capitalist employers facing the incentives and receiving the resources (profits) to evade, weaken and eventually dissolve most of those programs.

It is far better not to distribute wealth unequally in the first place than to re-distribute it after to undo the inequality. For example, FDR proposed in 1944 that the government establish a maximum income alongside a minimum wage; that is one among the various ways inequality could be limited and thereby redistribution avoided. Efforts to redistribute encounter evasions, oppositions, and failures that compound the effects of unequal distribution itself. Social peace and cohesion are the victims of redistribution sooner or later. Reforming markets while leaving the relations/organization of capitalist production unchanged is like redistribution. Just as redistribution schemes fail to solve the problems rooted in distribution, market-focused reforms fail to solve the problems rooted in production.

Since 2008, capitalism has showed us all yet again its deep and unsolved problems of cyclical instability, deepening inequality and the injustices they both entail. Their persistence mirrors that of the capitalist organization of production. To successfully confront and solve the problems of economic cycles, income and wealth inequality, and so on, we need to go beyond the capitalist employer-employee system of production. The democratization of enterprises – transitioning from employer-employee hierarchies to worker cooperatives – is a key way available here and now to realize the change we need.

Worker coops democratically decide the distribution of income (wages, bonuses, benefits, profit shares, etc.) among their members. No small group of owners and the boards of directors they choose would, as in capitalist corporations, make such decisions. Thus, for example, it would be far less likely that a few individuals in a worker coop would earn millions while most others could not afford to send children to college. A democratic worker coop decision on the distribution of enterprise income would be far less unequal than what typifies capitalist enterprises. A socialism for the 21st century could and should include the transition from a capitalist to a worker-coop-based economic system as central to its commitments to less inequality and less social conflict over redistribution.

Capitalism Is Not the “Market System”



An OP should be 3-4 paragraphs, link, content.
Angelo

Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

USMB Rules and Guidelines

Socialism only appeals to control freaks

Greed is Good under Capitalism

 

[Markle]

Is Social Security successful?

If you consider that it is deeply in debt. No, it is not successful!

 

[Markle]

Greed is Good under Capitalism

As you know, there is good and bad greed.

I'm sure you agree!

 

[regent]

Well if SS is underfunded, you can rest assured that Trump will correct that overlooked error.

 

[the other mike]

Is Social Security successful?

If you consider that it is deeply in debt. No, it is not successful!

It's in debt because for decades it was 'borrowed from', ( I say stolen ), to pay for wars basically, instead of gaining interest as it should have been.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Is Social Security successful?

If you consider that it is deeply in debt. No, it is not successful!

It's in debt because for decades it was 'borrowed from', ( I say stolen ), to pay for wars basically, instead of gaining interest as it should have been.

It's in debt because for decades it was 'borrowed from'... instead of gaining interest as it should have been.

Ummmm....you don't think the bonds "gain interest"?

 

[the other mike]

The artificially inflated bond market ?

 

[regent]

England had charities before the US broke free. After the break the states were responsible for feeding the poor, and we had work farms and charity.
During the Great Depression the states could not handle the mass feeding of the poor and FDR had the national government take over much of the charitable work of the nation. And it is only one reason FDR was elected four times and historians named FDR best president.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The artificially inflated bond market ?

Which has what to do with Treasuries in the Trust Funds?

 

[the other mike]

The artificially inflated bond market ?

Which has what to do with Treasuries in the Trust Funds?

We don't know exactly what is in there any more than we know how much
actual gold is stored in Fort Knox.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The artificially inflated bond market ?

Which has what to do with Treasuries in the Trust Funds?

We don't know exactly what is in there any more than we know how much
actual gold is stored in Fort Knox.

We don't know exactly what is in there

Bonds are in there.

Do you know what a bond is?