Next Question: Can Students Be Paid to Excel?

[Shogun]

The fourth graders squirmed in their seats, waiting for their prizes. In a few minutes, they would learn how much money they had earned for their scores on recent reading and math exams. Some would receive nearly $50 for acing the standardized tests, a small fortune for many at this school, P.S. 188 on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

When the rewards were handed out, Jazmin Roman was eager to celebrate her $39.72. She whispered to her friend Abigail Ortega, “How much did you get?” Abigail mouthed a barely audible answer: $36.87. Edgar Berlanga pumped his fist in the air to celebrate his $34.50.

The children were unaware that their teacher, Ruth Lopez, also stood to gain financially from their achievement. If students show marked improvement on state tests during the school year, each teacher at Public School 188 could receive a bonus of as much as $3,000.

more..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/nyregion/05incentive.html?_r=1&ref=education&oref=slogin

 

[Diuretic]

I know there's going to be some premature condemnation of this programme but if it's an experiment and if it works then it may have something going for it.

 

[jillian]

I've thought about this (since it's been raised before). And I've decided it's not a good idea. There are things we have to do because it's our responsibility. If you want to give incentives, they shoud be of the type normally associated with school.

Kids shouldn't get paid for doing what they HAVE to.

 

[Gem]

I think there is something to be said for telling children, "Getting an education is your job, therefore we will reward you for performing at your job."

Here are just a few issues I have it from an educator's standpoint:

- Students who do not achieve at first will, instead of being motivated to do better, will give up and stop performing altogether. This is the "its better to be the 'bad kid who mouths off and doesn't do homework' than the dumb kid in class" idea that teachers see everyday. This happens frequently in schools now, and I think that attaching money to achievement could make it much, much worse.

- Competition among higher-achieving students could reach dangerous levels. Those students already compete over GPA and class rank...to the point of fights and hysteria (take a look at the girl who just realized that the 99% on her senior project means that she is not going to be valedictorian for an example of this).

- Due to class arrangement, sometimes some teachers end up with students who are more capable of higher achievement. Will they always earn more than their counterparts who are working with students who struggle more? How will you make it even?



I could go on...as a teacher we discuss this issue (and similar ideas, like merit pay) OFTEN and at GREAT LENGTH. And as I said...while I think there is something to be said for rewarding students for their hard work...I think that this system brings with it a lot of difficult questions.

 

[pegwinn]

Are we going to tax these earnings?

If so, we will be sending a message to the budding young capitalists to not do well as it will only cost them more.

Personally, I like the idea as long as it is local and not federal.

 

[Shogun]

I posted this because of the last conversation I had with Bern about motivating students. Truthfully, in an effort to prepare kids for adulthood in our modern society I can't fathom how we tell kids that they just SHOULD achieve in school while the same idea would be totally laughable to an adult who expects compensation. We don't have as stark of a social difference between the uneducated and the educated anymore. This isnt 1808 where a little booklearnin' goes a long way. It's really no different than any other incentive program except that it introduced the value of money and exposes kids to the same responsibility that they will be expected to perform by a mere 5 years later.


I applaud the people trying an incentive program like this rather than merely demonizing schools.


also, what does "normally associated with school" mean anyway? Are book it pizza's normally associated with schools? I guarentee more kids cut their teeth reading just to put another gold star on their book it pin than did reading because that is what they are "supposed to do".

 

[manifold]

I think it's an idea worth exploring.

But if they really want to help prepare these young students for the real world, then those students who don't qualiify for the cash reward should get a fistful of foodstamps.

 

[Annie]

I think there is something to be said for telling children, "Getting an education is your job, therefore we will reward you for performing at your job."

Here are just a few issues I have it from an educator's standpoint:

- Students who do not achieve at first will, instead of being motivated to do better, will give up and stop performing altogether. This is the "its better to be the 'bad kid who mouths off and doesn't do homework' than the dumb kid in class" idea that teachers see everyday. This happens frequently in schools now, and I think that attaching money to achievement could make it much, much worse.

- Competition among higher-achieving students could reach dangerous levels. Those students already compete over GPA and class rank...to the point of fights and hysteria (take a look at the girl who just realized that the 99% on her senior project means that she is not going to be valedictorian for an example of this).

- Due to class arrangement, sometimes some teachers end up with students who are more capable of higher achievement. Will they always earn more than their counterparts who are working with students who struggle more? How will you make it even?



I could go on...as a teacher we discuss this issue (and similar ideas, like merit pay) OFTEN and at GREAT LENGTH. And as I said...while I think there is something to be said for rewarding students for their hard work...I think that this system brings with it a lot of difficult questions.

I'm all for 'rewarding' though I'm not quite sure if money is the route to go. I have students whose parents will give them $100 for each 'A', no joke. What seems to happen is that the student becomes much more concerned with the number of words/length of papers, not working with others, arguing point by point why they should receive more credit, etc.

On the other hand, when parents and teachers commend kids for work well done, including 'stickers or a smiley face', the students seem more motivated to stretch themselves. It's one of the things I focus on during 'middle school' open house with parents.

 

[Shogun]

becomes much more concerned with the number of words/length of papers, not working with others, arguing point by point why they should receive more credit, etc.


Wouldn't this be where teachers come into play though? 500 words of crap still gets graded, eh? I'd imagine that the attention put into getting as much money as possible is exactly what is being harvested above.

 

[Annie]

becomes much more concerned with the number of words/length of papers, not working with others, arguing point by point why they should receive more credit, etc.


Wouldn't this be where teachers come into play though? 500 words of crap still gets graded, eh? I'd imagine that the attention put into getting as much money as possible is exactly what is being harvested above.

I think I made my opinion clear. Of course 500 words of 'crap' gets a bad grade, though the 'money' kids fail to get it and then want to argue their nonsense. Worse yet, their parents come in or call and say that their kid was 'told' that it should be X length, regardless.

I learned years ago to say length had to be, 'long enough' to make your point. I usually add, 'no longer than...', I really hate reading more than 1.5 pages from middle school writing.

 

[pegwinn]

I really hate reading more than 1.5 pages from middle school writing.

And yet you hang out with us.............

Ok I know, that was bad, sometimes I think I am possessed (by the spirit of a dead comedian. A bad comedian)

 

[Annie]

And yet you hang out with us.............

Ok I know, that was bad, sometimes I think I am possessed (by the spirit of a dead comedian. A bad comedian)

Actually, I become very choosy beyong 3 sentences.

 

[Diuretic]

Ernest Hemingway would have been okay then - remember his six word short story? Best thing he ever wrote, he said

 

[Annie]

Ernest Hemingway would have been okay then - remember his six word short story? Best thing he ever wrote, he said

No. Help me.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I'm all for 'rewarding' though I'm not quite sure if money is the route to go. I have students whose parents will give them $100 for each 'A', no joke. What seems to happen is that the student becomes much more concerned with the number of words/length of papers, not working with others, arguing point by point why they should receive more credit, etc.

On the other hand, when parents and teachers commend kids for work well done, including 'stickers or a smiley face', the students seem more motivated to stretch themselves. It's one of the things I focus on during 'middle school' open house with parents.

This is true, some reward right now, is helpful.

Kids only can think in terms of the future, as far as they have experienced. In other words, babies cant conceive of tomorrow until they can remember yesterday.

It used to be good enough for kids to trust the adults when they tell them its for their own good and it will be beneficial when they grow up.

Today, with so many broken families, and no MEN in kids lives, its more difficult to convey to them reasons for doing well now, for future results. I support the rewards now Idea, and money is fine by me. Tax them? Hell yea, it will make them opposed to taxation early. And make sure they know that you cant account for half of what the tax went to, and that the other half went to frivolous or devious situations. Like buying the kid next door a skateboard because he didnt have one, even though your own kid doesnt like him because the neighbor kid broke your kids skateboard.

 

[Diuretic]

No. Help me.

For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn.

 

[Annie]

For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I think there is something to be said for telling children, "Getting an education is your job, therefore we will reward you for performing at your job."

Here are just a few issues I have it from an educator's standpoint:

- Students who do not achieve at first will, instead of being motivated to do better, will give up and stop performing altogether. This is the "its better to be the 'bad kid who mouths off and doesn't do homework' than the dumb kid in class" idea that teachers see everyday. This happens frequently in schools now, and I think that attaching money to achievement could make it much, much worse.

- Competition among higher-achieving students could reach dangerous levels. Those students already compete over GPA and class rank...to the point of fights and hysteria (take a look at the girl who just realized that the 99% on her senior project means that she is not going to be valedictorian for an example of this).

- Due to class arrangement, sometimes some teachers end up with students who are more capable of higher achievement. Will they always earn more than their counterparts who are working with students who struggle more? How will you make it even?

There are solutions. For example, dont give out rewards based on how one student compares to another, but by how much improvement they show compared to how they were doing before.

One of the biggest mistakes I see in educational circles is having kids work hard on their weak areas to strengthen them. I think it is a waste. A persons weaker areas is not what they will wind up using in their professional career. Instead, focus on their strengths.

A baseball player who is poor at football doesnt spend time practicing football.

 

[Annie]

There are solutions. For example, dont give out rewards based on how one student compares to another, but by how much improvement they show compared to how they were doing before.

One of the biggest mistakes I see in educational circles is having kids work hard on their weak areas to strengthen them. I think it is a waste. A persons weaker areas is not what they will wind up using in their professional career. Instead, focus on their strengths.

A baseball player who is poor at football doesnt spend time practicing football.

I think both, though more of what you are advocating. One needs to work on weaknesses, for the simple reason that these are usually needed skills. At the same time, building on strengths is crucial.

 

[BrianH]

As and educator, I've seen an increase in the number of students who expect rewards. I'm a high school teacher and I've noticed alot of students who will not do anything unless there is some kind of reward attatched. I've come to find out that at the elementary level, they are rewarded for EVERYTHING. It's not money, but it's parties and prizes. Teachers (at this school) spend alot of money on prizes for these students, so the students come to expect something. And when they know there's not a reward attached, they perform worse. (My problem with this is Life does not give rewards for good behavior and doing your work. In real life, it takes money to survive, you have to work hard to get that money, and you spend it as fast as you earn it. In life you have to do things because you have to, not because you're going to get a reward for it. I do believe that the students should have incentives and rewards, just not at that kind of level. If you reward students too much during school, you will create monsters in the real world. This has already began to happen. I see more and more students every day who have lost their incentive to learn. The incentive to learn should not be to learn so that you can get this $40.00. If you reward with money, that will be the sole motivator and kids will do anything to get it. Cheat, lie, etc...(not that they already don't).
Kids should be taught that their education is important because it will turn them into reasonable, rational, and logical decision-makers. A result of this mentality is that students will become educated for themselves and will eventually get jobs that make reasonable money. If they are driven soley by money from the beginning, they'll do what they have to do to "get-by" and will be no more educated than when they started.