Never trust anti gunners....they lie because they have an irrational fear of guns....

[westwall]

You mean like you do? You are nothing but a SPAM BOT and you post more than three of us COMBINED. Add to that the gross intellectual dishonesty you exhibit every single day and it becomes quite clear that it is you who are the SPAMBOT.

No, guy, I actually make arguments and counter what you clowns say. Which isn't hard, because you post stuff like Kleck and Lott even after they've been pretty seriously debunked.

Only debunked in your tiny little mind. And by people who suffer from the same delusions as you do. I have no problem with a legit argument. Your aren't. Yours are promulgated by people who have a incredible bias, and who ignore simple rules of statistical analysis, all so they can twist the results into those they wish.

 

[westwall]

Utter bullshit. I think I finally figured out your mental disconnect. In your twisted world where guns only exist to kill people, you simply can't conceive of a world where people don't just wantonly kill people. Guns are used to prevent crimes ever single day. The VAST majority of the time they are not fired. They are merely brandished and that's enough. Amazingly enough, bad guys don't like getting shot.

The vast majority being, 12,499 times out of 12,500 incidents. That would mean gun owners wouldn't kill 99.992% of the time. Frankly, that would make you guys more highly disciplined than police or soldiers.

Or more logically, Kleck did a flawed study of only 5000 people and used a very low criteria that included rednecks shooting possums as a DGU.

They love to prey on defenseless people though, of that there is no doubt. But when the intended target is shown to be prepared and armed, well all of a sudden they lose interest in that target and move on to the next.

Yeah, you see, here's the thing. We aren't talking about Professor Moriarty here. We are talking about a common street thug who usually is just looking for a crime of opportunity. I simply don't see a lot of those guys being deterred that easily, especially when their crimes are often spurred by drugs or alcohol. I honestly don't see a crackhead being that easily deterred.

According to your bullshit view of the planet those uses don't count. "Guns are only meant to kill" is your mantra, well here you go SPAMBOT. No, they aren't. They are tools and the overwhelming majority of the time they are used, they are never fired.

I just find it hard to believe that most gun owners, you know, 99.99% of them if you believe your own numbers, are so cool in a clutch that they would merely play a game of chicken with a obviously dangerous criminal.

Simple put, if we have 2.5 million DGU's a year, we should have a lot more dead bodies.

Heck, even using the more generous NCVS figure of 65,000 DGU's a year, only 1 out of 325 crime victims uses lethal force. That's still a number that has 99.7% of gun users showing retraint.

That's because PEOPLE ARE more restrained than police are! That's the whole point silly person. It is you and yours who claim that guns only exist to kill people. When you are presented with evidence that summarily calls your bullshit for what it is...bullshit. You hide. Law enforcement officers are poorly trained compared to the majority of gun owners. That's a fact. Gun owners don't enjoy the immunity from prosecution that most officers do if they shoot someone. So even a person who WOULD be inclined to do so, won't unless they absolutely have to.

Your arguments are specious and ridiculous, supported by nothing but fantasy.

 

[westwall]

No, your bullshit world only allows defensive uses where the gun is fired because that is your twisted, fucked up logic. You simply can't conceive of a weapon being used, without it being fired. The snake must FEED! You can't draw the sword without it blooding something, and all that other mythological horse shit.

Face it Joe, you're just flat assed wrong.

Do I think the gun needs to be fired every time? No.

Do I think the gun has to be fired a decent percent of the time? Yes.

It's really kind of simple math. if you have 2.5 million DGU's a year and only 200 Justifiable Homicides, that means that only one out of 12500 DGU's actually requires deadly force to be used. I just don't find that very probable. Especially not when you have gun nutters who simply cream their jeans at the thought of shooting a bad guy. and that happy day comes, and they don't do it? At least not 12,499 times out of 12,500.

Probability says that it should happen a lot more often that that.

No, it doesn't. You're simply wrong and too entrenched to admit that you know nothing of what you speak. In your silly world there would be a hell of a lot more police shootings because they have their guns out far too often. Police use their guns very poorly...and yet the number of people they shoot is still comparatively low.

Your logic fails yet again.

 

[2aguy]

Suicides.....the Japanese have almost complete gun control and they have a higher suicide rate than we do....dittos Russai, China, and many other countries....we could ask them and do the opposite....

Japan has a culture were suicide is considered honorable to disgrace. It's one of those little dishonest things you guys like to pull to try to distract from the fact that we have 19,000 gun suicides every year, representing 55% of suicides.

How does anything you wrote in that post have any bearing on this......Japan has no guns.....and they still kill themselves at twice our rate....guns are not the issue....it is the mental health of the person committing suicide.....what don't you understand....guns aren't jumping up and shooting them.....they decide to die....they will switch how they do it....like they did in Australia after the gun buy back...and as they do in Japan....

 

[2aguy]

Again, the NCVS says 65,000 a year.

the NCVS only counts deaths...nothing else.....

 

[2aguy]

Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if the abuser owns a firearm.4

I have great faith they are lying....as they do in almost all of their stats....what did they leave out....that women, to this point are the one group with the lowest rate of gun ownership and carrying permits....that is changing because they realize that people like you Joe would prefer that they be disarmed in front of their killer than that they use guns to stop their murder....

 

[2aguy]

Another factor I didn't know....the NCVS meets people in person...for the first interviewl....yeah...that encourages honesty...

Gun Facts Misc Gun Control Information

The 235,700 number comes from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). One important methodological difference in the NCVS is that it entails personal, face-to-face engagements with government employees (per their methodology documentation “all interviews are done by telephone whenever possible, except for the first interview, which is primarily conducted in person”).

There is also the potential for self-incrimination that may prevent reporting of some DGUs to this government survey. A victim may have a strong reluctance to talk to a government agent about a firearm brandishing incident (which are 98% of DGUs) because they may not know the act was 100% legal. Thus, to assure they are not victimized by the legal system, them avoid reporting DGUs to this government survey.

Another criticism of the NCVS is that questions concerning gun-use are never asked unless the interviewee first indicates that they were “a victim of a crime.” Since some people who successfully avoid being a victim by using a gun reply that they have not been victimized, they are never asked the question about use of a firearm.

Because of this, some criminologists believe there is a self-reporting bias in the NCVS (e.g., people don’t like to tell the government they own or used a gun). Thus, this low number from the NCVS is considered to be an outlier and not reliable compared to other, broader and more standardized measures.

But....it is the only....the only study, that gives the anti gunners the low numbers they want and need....so they cling to it though it isn't accurate....since accuracy is second to lying about the actual researchers.....

 

[2aguy]

but here's the real reason why Kleck is bullshit.

It's been 20 years, and no one has reproduced his results.

Less Guns Less Crime- Debunking the Self-Defense Myth Armed With Reason

In 2010, according to the most recent data on justifiable homicides from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) program, there were 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm in self-defense during either an attempted or a completed crime. In the same year, there were 8,275 firearm homicides. This means that, for every one justifiable firearm homicide, there were 36 criminal homicides. Contrary to the gun lobby’s claim that, between 2007 and 2011, guns were used 12.5 million times in self-defense, the most reliable data on this question clearly show that firearms were used only 338,700 times in self-defense, and this includes off-duty police. Clearly, then, despite living in a country with 300 million guns, the use of firearms in self-defense appears to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon.

Joe....there are 8-9,000 gun murders a year because 80% of them are committed by inner city gangs killing each other and innocent people caught in drive bys....what don't you understand about normal people....people with families and jobs and normal psychology not wanting to just kill people......that when confronted by a criminal...they don't want to kill them and only draw their weapon if the absolutely have to and only pull the trigger if they absolutely have to to save a life.....whereas the gang member and criminal has less control over their emotions and less restraint when it comes to violence....

I have three recent news worthy cases.....all local level because gun self defense rarely cracks the national media where gun murder does so all the time....where private citizens....not police or military....held violent criminals for the police.....and never fired a shot.....

You and your anti gun buddies........you are the ones who are really afraid....and in being afraid you want to control that thing that scares you....and deep down it is people that you are afraid of........and you focus on guns because you think you can control them.....because you know you can't ever really control people....

You need help Joe.....a lot of it........

 

[JoeB131]

That's because PEOPLE ARE more restrained than police are! That's the whole point silly person. It is you and yours who claim that guns only exist to kill people. When you are presented with evidence that summarily calls your bullshit for what it is...bullshit. You hide. Law enforcement officers are poorly trained compared to the majority of gun owners. That's a fact. Gun owners don't enjoy the immunity from prosecution that most officers do if they shoot someone. So even a person who WOULD be inclined to do so, won't unless they absolutely have to.

Your arguments are specious and ridiculous, supported by nothing but fantasy.

we have 32,000 gun deaths a year, including 11,500 homicides. Restraint is not what you gun owners are showing. Not to mention 800 accidental deaths.

compared to Japan where they had all of 11 homicides by gun. Or Germany where (Despite having some legal gun ownership) they only had 258 gun homicides.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe....there are 8-9,000 gun murders a year because 80% of them are committed by inner city gangs

A claim you have yet to substatiate with a link.

what don't you understand about normal people....people with families and jobs and normal psychology not wanting to just kill people......that when confronted by a criminal...

Sorry, guy, years of discussing this with gun nuts and NRA members, you guys aren't "normal". Your the guys who cheered when George Zimmerman gunned down an unarmed kid.

I have three recent news worthy cases.....all local level because gun self defense rarely cracks the national media where gun murder does so all the time....where private citizens....not police or military....held violent criminals for the police.....and never fired a shot.....

Great. You found 3. Wonderful. Now all you got to do is find me 2,499,997 more, and I won't call bullshit on Kleck anymore.

You and your anti gun buddies........you are the ones who are really afraid....and in being afraid you want to control that thing that scares you....and deep down it is people that you are afraid of........and you focus on guns because you think you can control them.....because you know you can't ever really control people....

No, i guy, i'm concerned because I listen to guys like you talk about all the people you want to kill because you've let rich people wreck your country, and you live in terror of gangbangers taking what little you have left. Because you talk about Second Amendment solutions when you can't win elections outside of places where they fly the Confederate Flag like that isn't something to be totally embarrassed about.

That's what concerns me. You people are ******* nuts and the best argument for gun control is to just let the gun nuts talk about all the people they want to murder.

 

[JoeB131]

the NCVS only counts deaths...nothing else.....

No, we don't have 65,000 gun deaths a year, justifiable or otherwise. .

 

[skookerasbil]

"Moreover, in addition to the Harvard study, at least two other studies have come up with similar conclusions. In 2003 the U.S. Center for Disease Control and again in 2004 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences both concluded that they “failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicides, or gun accidents.”"

Harvard study concludes that gun control does not prevent murders other violent crime





Links with real statistics/research > Conjecture/Opinion

 

[WinterBorn]

"Moreover, in addition to the Harvard study, at least two other studies have come up with similar conclusions. In 2003 the U.S. Center for Disease Control and again in 2004 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences both concluded that they “failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicides, or gun accidents.”"

Harvard study concludes that gun control does not prevent murders other violent crime





Links with real statistics/research > Conjecture/Opinion

How about it, JoeyB? Are you going to now claim that Harvard, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the CDC are "gun nutter" organizations?

 

[JoeB131]

How does anything you wrote in that post have any bearing on this......Japan has no guns.....and they still kill themselves at twice our rate....guns are not the issue....it is the mental health of the person committing suicide.....what don't you understand....guns aren't jumping up and shooting them.....they decide to die....they will switch how they do it....like they did in Australia after the gun buy back...and as they do in Japan....

Japan also has a long tradition that killing yourself is far better than facing dishonor or disgrace.

Italy bans guns and their suicide rate is half ours. So does Britain.

Guns make it easier to kill yourself.

Do I think banning guns will eliminate suicide? Nope. Will it reduce it? Yup.

Good enough for me. Because, honestly, **** gun owners. They are all a bunch of assholes and frankly, I'm sick of their whining. And watching us cart dead kids out of schools and theaters.

 

[skookerasbil]

[URL=http://s42.photobucket.com/user/baldaltima/media/gigantor11_1.gif.html][/URL]

 

[JoeB131]

How about it, JoeyB? Are you going to now claim that Harvard and the CDC are "gun nutter" organizations?

I've already thoroughly debunked Kleck and the CDC is banned from studying gun violence since Kellerman.

 

[skookerasbil]

"Moreover, in addition to the Harvard study, at least two other studies have come up with similar conclusions. In 2003 the U.S. Center for Disease Control and again in 2004 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences both concluded that they “failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicides, or gun accidents.”"

Harvard study concludes that gun control does not prevent murders other violent crime





Links with real statistics/research > Conjecture/Opinion

How about it, JoeyB? Are you going to now claim that Harvard, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the CDC are "gun nutter" organizations?

 

[JoeB131]

No, it doesn't. You're simply wrong and too entrenched to admit that you know nothing of what you speak. In your silly world there would be a hell of a lot more police shootings because they have their guns out far too often. Police use their guns very poorly...and yet the number of people they shoot is still comparatively low.

Your logic fails yet again.

Actually, Police are trained, and they know if they shoot someone, and it wasn't a "good shoot", they are likely to face prison, lose their jobs, and face a world of hurt.

The thing about DGU's. They just don't happen that often. That's why you don't have that many "justifiable homicides" with guns.

 

[WinterBorn]

How does anything you wrote in that post have any bearing on this......Japan has no guns.....and they still kill themselves at twice our rate....guns are not the issue....it is the mental health of the person committing suicide.....what don't you understand....guns aren't jumping up and shooting them.....they decide to die....they will switch how they do it....like they did in Australia after the gun buy back...and as they do in Japan....

Japan also has a long tradition that killing yourself is far better than facing dishonor or disgrace.

Italy bans guns and their suicide rate is half ours. So does Britain.

Guns make it easier to kill yourself.

Do I think banning guns will eliminate suicide? Nope. Will it reduce it? Yup.

Good enough for me. Because, honestly, **** gun owners. They are all a bunch of assholes and frankly, I'm sick of their whining. And watching us cart dead kids out of schools and theaters.

How did the suicide rate in Britain change when they banned guns??

In Australia, when they banned guns the suicide rate rose for a year or so, then dropped to rates slightly higher than pre-restriction rates. Your claim that suicide rates would drop has no basis in reality.

 

[JoeB131]

Another factor I didn't know....the NCVS meets people in person...for the first interviewl....yeah...that encourages honesty...

when youa re going to a gun nutter site like gunfact.org, you are grasping.

Here's the thing.

NCVS- Conducted every year, includes 90,000 people, gets the same results every year.

Kleck- Conducted one time, included only 5000 people, results have never been replicated in 20 years.