Navy SEALS...is it worth the hype?

[whitehall]

I'm not sure if SEALS were created in the open as a logical evolution of the old UDT. JFK was an old WW2 Navy man so he probably assumed that the Navy's readiness depended on old WW2 concepts. Possibly SEALS actually filled a niche in the Military in the early 60's. The problem is that SEAL training relies on old concepts and they are stuck with it through tradition and funding. Does it make sense to take Sailors and train them as mountain recon units? No. That's why the training still consists of paddling rubber boats.

 

[daveman]

During JFK's administration.

The SEALs were established in '62. I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.

Why would you think I should have heard of the SEALS in '62? Did they make some sort of impact in the Military world back then? I was just a kid and I didn't read the papers or watch much TV. I was more concerned with getting through NCO Leadership school and about a dozen other challenges back then. It's no big deal whether or not I heard of the SEALS anyway.

Uh huh.

 

[daveman]

During JFK's administration.

The SEALs were established in '62. I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.

All of the SOCOM units started out as highly classified units. Delta Force which has had semi-official histories written about it still does not officially exist. At least two units that also officially do not exist and rarely get written about do exist according to open sources one provides intelligence for special operations and the other provides logistical support for other units. There are also special cyber warfare units and no doubt many others. Bureaucratic empires uniformed or not tend to grow.

Perhaps.

 

[daveman]

I'm not sure if SEALS were created in the open as a logical evolution of the old UDT. JFK was an old WW2 Navy man so he probably assumed that the Navy's readiness depended on old WW2 concepts. Possibly SEALS actually filled a niche in the Military in the early 60's. The problem is that SEAL training relies on old concepts and they are stuck with it through tradition and funding. Does it make sense to take Sailors and train them as mountain recon units? No. That's why the training still consists of paddling rubber boats.

You might want to read some more books.

 

[SFC Ollie]

During JFK's administration.

The SEALs were established in '62. I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.

All of the SOCOM units started out as highly classified units. Delta Force which has had semi-official histories written about it still does not officially exist. At least two units that also officially do not exist and rarely get written about do exist according to open sources one provides intelligence for special operations and the other provides logistical support for other units. There are also special cyber warfare units and no doubt many others. Bureaucratic empires uniformed or not tend to grow.

Actually your Delta Force does officially exist and has for years.

The actual name of the Unit is:

1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta

 

[Brian175]

I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.

Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.

A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.

Me? I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.

Wanna know the washout rates? Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training. Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.

Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.

 

[JackDan]

I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.

Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.

A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.

Me? I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.

Wanna know the washout rates? Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training. Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.

Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.

Living in san diego throughout my 20's I have known and been close friends with many canidates for navy seals, but have only known 3-4 that actually passed the buds program. I have one friend who probably tried to take the test 10 times and never passed. (I think the limit is like 5 times and then you can't take it again?) He was built like a brick shithouse too, and pretty much failed because of mental collapse. Another 1 friend was a greenhorn and is receiving the 2 year training but hasn't done much, the other was my neighbor, and boy did he have some stories to tell... They mostly say that of each class of 100 it is 20-40% dropout rate depending on the class.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.

Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.

A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.

Me? I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.

Wanna know the washout rates? Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training. Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.

Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.

Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.

Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.

I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.

And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.

Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself to tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Warrior102]

Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.

Actually, any Lance Corporal (basic/gate guard) will do.
LOL!

 

[Brian175]

Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.

Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.

I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.

And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.

Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself to tell me I'm wrong.

I really wish I could post links:
professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat

Go four post down.

What irritates SF?
1. Being called a hat.

He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.

As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.

Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.

I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.

And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.

Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself to tell me I'm wrong.

I really wish I could post links:
professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat

Go four post down.

What irritates SF?
1. Being called a hat.

He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.

As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.

And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the extras in the movie the Green berets.

You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.

 

[Brian175]

Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.

Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.

I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.

And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.

Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself to tell me I'm wrong.

I really wish I could post links:
professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat

Go four post down.

What irritates SF?
1. Being called a hat.

He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.

As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.

And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the extras in the movie the Green berets.

You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.

Ah yes, of course a board full of vetted SF from various eras all agreeing the term irritates them must be wrong because you don't personally know them. I guess we'll agree to disagree. That aside your attempt at saying Rangers are not really SOF is wrong.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I really wish I could post links:
professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat

Go four post down.


He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.

As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.

And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the extras in the movie the Green berets.

You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.

Ah yes, of course a board full of vetted SF from various eras all agreeing the term irritates them must be wrong because you don't personally know them. I guess we'll agree to disagree. That aside your attempt at saying Rangers are not really SOF is wrong.

Hey dick weed, do not come in here and make a lame attempt to put words in my mouth. I said that Rangers were not Special Forces. I was, am , and always will be a SFC. I say what I mean, not what you think I meant to say. Understand Sergeant?

 

[Brian175]

Hey dick weed, do not come in here and make a lame attempt to put words in my mouth. I said that Rangers were not Special Forces. I was, am , and always will be a SFC. I say what I mean, not what you think I meant to say. Understand Sergeant?

And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.

Well this is certainly an unusual statement to make. We either are SOF or not Special Forces, no 'not really's to it but roger that, Sergeant, no more word stuffing.

 

[The Gadfly]

What I'd like to know, is why we are having (yet another) relatively pointless argument? Look, guys, we have vets here from pre-Vietnam to the present day. During that time, some terminology, MOS designations, and attitudes have changed over the years. A sixties-era MOS might not be recognizable to someone who joined the army in the eighties, for example. Some ranks have changed (the old Sp. 5 and Sp. 6 designations are obsolete). Some training cycles have changed along with some unit cultures and attitudes. The point is that someone who served in one era may well remember some things quite differently from those that served in another. So who's right? Often they both are. Case in point, the "beret, rifle green", the distinctive Army Special Forces headgear, and the song, "Ballad of the Green Beret". SF soldiers from different eras and different units have had varying attitudes about being referred to as "Green Berets". Back in the Vietnam era, there was considerable sentiment that " an SF soldier is a man; a green beret is a hat" (albeit a very special hat). That sentiment was particularly common in the 5th SF Group, though not limited to it, at the time. Likewise, the song by Barry Sadler got a very mixed reception from SF soldiers initially; it was an object of derision in some quarters, though it fared better in the 7th SF Group (since SSgt. Sadler was in 7th Group, perhaps?). Eventually, the song was grudgingly accepted by some; enthusiastically adopted by others. Same with the "Green Beret" moniker; there are still some differences on that among SF personnel, sometimes depending on when and with what unit(s) they served. So Brian and Ollie may both be at least partially right on that one, as just one example. Now why the hell are we vets sitting here nitpicking and backbiting at one another in front of the civilians?

 

[oldsalt]

According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?

Did you ring the bell at BUDS?

 

[ABikerSailor]

I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.

Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.

A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.

Me? I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.

Wanna know the washout rates? Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training. Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.

Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.

Nope. My application figure is correct. I looked up the stats while active.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Hate to dig up old posts but todays headlines from Military.com

"2 Green Berets Get Silver Star, 12 Get Bronze With ‘V’ "

2 Green Berets Get Silver Star, 12 Get Bronze With

 

[whitehall]

According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?

Did you ring the bell at BUDS?

When I was in the Marines they were still called UDT. According to Luttrell's book, a lot of good men washed out of BUDS because they couldn't take the constant hypothermia. Those men had skills which would have been valuable to SEALS but they were discarded in favor of people who might have permanent mental impairment from the abusive training. Fair enough if SEALS mission involved only constant cold water imersion but the mission that Luttrell refered to in his book failed because a SEAL recon patrol couldn't seem to navigate in the Afghanistan mountains in fog and found themselves surrounded by the enemy they were supposed to recon. The SEAL elitism caused a SEAL leader to compound the failure of the mission by jumping on a helicopter without a realistic plan and land in a Taliban ambush which killed every member of the rescue team. It took an Army Ranger patrol to rescue Luttrell.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.

Yeah yeah yeah Ollie. Challenge them to a fight. That will substitute for intelligent discussion.

I did not say to challenge them to a fight. I said to tell them your problem with them. Chances are you will walk away wondering why you feel so stupid. There is a lot more to SF than physical strength.

Exactly. There's a reason why the Seal team that got Osama had an average age of 38.