National Pride & Shame

[The ClayTaurus]

We all know having national pride is a good thing. But what about shame? Is it ok to admit and express displeasure over portions of your country's history? Is it ok to teach children in your country that mistakes were made?

Germany, for example. Is it ok for a German to be ashamed of their country during the world wars? Should German children be taught to be ashamed of their country for the role it played in the world wars? Or should people not be ashamed of their country but rather those in charge during the time?

I'm wondering if it is ever acceptable to acknowledge that your country has made mistakes in the past, or if that is unpatriotic. If you think it is unpatriotic, then how would you address previous transgressions by your country? Can you have intense pride for your country yet still be willing to acknowledge previous wrongdoings?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

We all know having national pride is a good thing. But what about shame? Is it ok to admit and express displeasure over portions of your country's history? Is it ok to teach children in your country that mistakes were made?

Germany, for example. Is it ok for a German to be ashamed of their country during the world wars? Should German children be taught to be ashamed of their country for the role it played in the world wars? Or should people not be ashamed of their country but rather those in charge during the time?

I'm wondering if it is ever acceptable to acknowledge that your country has made mistakes in the past, or if that is unpatriotic. If you think it is unpatriotic, then how would you address previous transgressions by your country? Can you have intense pride for your country yet still be willing to acknowledge previous wrongdoings?

You suck.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Seriously though. It's fine to recognize past failures, but one should not let these past failings paralyze one's willingness to defend one's self in the face of real enemies. The left does this. They continually bring up past "evils" of the u.s. as if this THEREFORE means we must lay down and die in the present. And typically they take it all out of historical context and fail to mention the acts of our enemies which prompted such actions.

 

[theHawk]

Let the left lie down and die.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Let the left lie down and die.

Superchicken, is that you?

 

[manu1959]

i think national pride and shame are both important.....however, hindsight is a powerful second guessing tool......and.....i belive it is wrong to use shame to shame people into doing something to make "amends" for a wrong thus creating yet another wrong.

 

[insein]

National Pride is important. You reflect on the great things your country has accomplished. You did not partake directly in most of them but some you did and you should have pride in that.

National Shame is not important. Shame leads to guilt. Guilt leads to entitlement programs and doing favors out of regret for something that the Country did at that time and not the current country. Repaying American Indians for example is nothing more then a guilt trip of the PC culture that has never ended. Sure it was horrible that they lost their land to an invading nation. Its in the past. The people of today didnt have anything to do with it. Same with the "reparations" movement from some in the black community. Most of the blacks today have way more opportunities to succeed then their fathers did. Yet we see them bitching about how people should pay them because their fathers or grandfathers were slaves. You yourself werent a slave so why are we being shamed into paying you for the sins of the father.

For germany, all the children in germany should be taught about the Nazi's and what they did so that they understand why they were bad. They shouldnt be guilted into thinking that they should be shamed because their grandfathers and grandmothers made mistakes and have to repay jews or poles or czech's for the rest of their lives because of what Germany did 60 years before they were born.

I think its important to look at the past and understand why things happened. That way you work towards not repeating them. But to go into an endless cycle of shame and guilt, you will never hear the end of those that feel you wronged them.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

It's interesting the response I've gotten. I wasn't looking to bait anyone into a reparations guilt trip, yet all of you seem to think that was what I was going towards. I don't agree with reparations, if it helps to have that out in the open.

I guess that it seems like having shame in your country or a part of your country's history is looked at as if you are unpatriotic by some. I'm not talking about using that shame to guilt reparations or whatever else, but just being able to sit back and say, "You know, I love being from Germany. I love the beer, the Black Forest is awesome, and we make a mean car. But I'm not proud of my country during the 1940's" or whatever.

Should the part about not being proud be sort of an unspoken understanding? Should it be totally ignored? Many of you on this board are very patriotic people, and so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how you deal when your country makes a mistake. Not when AMERICA makes a mistake, but when the country you're patriotic about makes a mistake.

I'm not talking about the Iraq war, I'm not talking about slavery, I'm not talking about Indians... this is a generic question that is not-country specific. It might seem like this is loaded or that I'm trying to slyly push some left commie agenda, but I'm not. It's an honest question about patriotism, one which responses like "you suck" don't really make sense to me, other than that you think I had ulterior motives.

 

[no1tovote4]

I can't see having shame over what I was not part of. A national memory is important but shame is a destructive emotion, especially when shamed over the actions of others that you had no control over nor any culpability.

Understanding what was done and why it may have been wrong action by today's standards is important, as well as understanding the differences in standards at the historical moment, but assuming guilt and feeling shame for those actions is not a positive action.

 

[no1tovote4]

It's interesting the response I've gotten. I wasn't looking to bait anyone into a reparations guilt trip, yet all of you seem to think that was what I was going towards. I don't agree with reparations, if it helps to have that out in the open.

I guess that it seems like having shame in your country or a part of your country's history is looked at as if you are unpatriotic by some. I'm not talking about using that shame to guilt reparations or whatever else, but just being able to sit back and say, "You know, I love being from Germany. I love the beer, the Black Forest is awesome, and we make a mean car. But I'm not proud of my country during the 1940's" or whatever.

Should the part about not being proud be sort of an unspoken understanding? Should it be totally ignored? Many of you on this board are very patriotic people, and so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how you deal when your country makes a mistake. Not when AMERICA makes a mistake, but when the country you're patriotic about makes a mistake.

I'm not talking about the Iraq war, I'm not talking about slavery, I'm not talking about Indians... this is a generic question that is not-country specific. It might seem like this is loaded or that I'm trying to slyly push some left commie agenda, but I'm not. It's an honest question about patriotism, one which responses like "you suck" don't really make sense to me, other than that you think I had ulterior motives.

Not being proud of some action of the past is not the same as shame. Understanding different actions in their historical context is important, not feeling shame for them.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Not being proud of some action of the past is not the same as shame. Understanding different actions in their historical context is important, not feeling shame for them.

Good point, perhaps my choice of wording could be improved then.

 

[Zhukov]

Admiting mistakes and being ashamed of mistakes are two different things.

If we cannot recognize and understand our mistakes we cannot learn from them. Therefore we should always strive to admit our mistakes in order to recognize and understand them.

Being ashamed of mistakes is like wishing it never happened and forever trying to make-up for it, but shame doesn't really accomplish anything constructive.

 

[5stringJeff]

I think RWA and Zhukov nailed it. Recognizing/admitting mistakes is good. Paralyzing your national pride because of such mistakes, or being ashamed to belong to a country is counterproductive.

 

[dilloduck]

Admiting mistakes and being ashamed of mistakes are two different things.

If we cannot recognize and understand our mistakes we cannot learn from them. Therefore we should always strive to admit our mistakes in order to recognize and understand them.

Being ashamed of mistakes is like wishing it never happened and forever trying to make-up for it, but shame doesn't really accomplish anything constructive.

Agreed--Shame is the result feeling of knowing you have done nothing to atone for a sin you have committed. As a nation the US has made mistakes and sometimes we as individuals have not known about them for some time. It's appropriate to feel sorrow upon learning of these mistakes but to remain in mourning and guilt is neurotic.
I'm with Manu----looking back and saying that we should have done something different as a country gives us the false impression that individuals at that time could or should have done anything differently. Our ancestors were like us I assume--just doing the best they could with the information they had.
No Virginia--man is NOT all knowing nor infallible. Heck--he isn't even in control of everything.

 

[Bonnie]

Seriously though. It's fine to recognize past failures, but one should not let these past failings paralyze one's willingness to defend one's self in the face of real enemies. The left does this. They continually bring up past "evils" of the u.s. as if this THEREFORE means we must lay down and die in the present. And typically they take it all out of historical context and fail to mention the acts of our enemies which prompted such actions.

Word for word I agree!!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Word for word I agree!!

Thanks, your stamp of approval means a great deal to me!

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks, your stamp of approval means a great deal to me!

Not approval, just entheusiastic agreement

 

[Bullypulpit]

Seriously though. It's fine to recognize past failures, but one should not let these past failings paralyze one's willingness to defend one's self in the face of real enemies. The left does this. They continually bring up past "evils" of the u.s. as if this THEREFORE means we must lay down and die in the present. And typically they take it all out of historical context and fail to mention the acts of our enemies which prompted such actions.

It's one thing to recognize past failures. It's another thing entirely to learn from them. And yet another thing when one chooses to willfully ignore ignore past failures to the point of denying they ever occurred. This latter has been the downfall of many a nation.

 

[insein]

It's one thing to recognize past failures. It's another thing entirely to learn from them. And yet another thing when one chooses to willfully ignore ignore past failures to the point of denying they ever occurred. This latter has been the downfall of many a nation.

Yes and if this country doesnt learn to get rid of useless bueracracy and not obtain all of the resources within ones borders, then we will be doomed to failure.