Nailed to crosses..crucified..really ?!!

[JimBowie1958]

The Quran is a holy book, IMO. I have read it and studied it without a preconception of its moral value and I was edified by it. It has a ring to it very similar to the books of the Kings and Chronicles and the Macabees.

I do not believe that there is an intrinsic conflict between the Quran and Christianity, though I know many will disagree. I say this because the Quran merely asserts that Jesus was not defeated on the cross, and this is most certainly True. One has to go to the Hadith to find incontrovertable disagreement between Christianity and Islam, and while I respect the Hadith, I do not think it is flawless.

This is simply my opinion, and I do not expect agreement, but I simply state it for the record.

If you really want to understand a religion, sit with the people who believe in it and hear it from them. Dont define it in your mind by reading the quivalent of Chick tracts.

I like you for actually willing to talk and be respectful, not like the other people who hurl insults against something many people hold sacred. And Muslims believe Jesus didn't die on a cross...now I cannot confirm because Hadith and Koran says nay that they know we raised him up into the heavens...now does that mean he died and his soul was raised into another body? Or it means he was literally himself raised up and is in the second heaven...I think it means he was literally but some disagree...

And there is many Hadith, I just look at the similiarities and ones confirmed by Hanafi schools

I am no authority, obviously, but it seems to me that the Quran states that Jesus was not defeated in His death on the cross and that He was born of a virgin and raised up into Heaven makes them more faithful to core Christian history than the typical Episcopalian or Congregationalist.

And yet we emphasize the points that seem to be in conflict with the Quran while largely ignoring the heresy of the two Protestant groups whom I doubt are even really theistic any more, much less Christian.

I think the constant emphasis on disagreement with a large Abrahamic group of people who affirm 90% of Christian Gospel history and refer to blatant heretics as bretheren is not a wise choice.

Of course, your milage may vary.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

The Quran is a holy book, IMO. I have read it and studied it without a preconception of its moral value and I was edified by it. It has a ring to it very similar to the books of the Kings and Chronicles and the Macabees.

I do not believe that there is an intrinsic conflict between the Quran and Christianity, though I know many will disagree. I say this because the Quran merely asserts that Jesus was not defeated on the cross, and this is most certainly True. One has to go to the Hadith to find incontrovertable disagreement between Christianity and Islam, and while I respect the Hadith, I do not think it is flawless.

This is simply my opinion, and I do not expect agreement, but I simply state it for the record.

If you really want to understand a religion, sit with the people who believe in it and hear it from them. Dont define it in your mind by reading the quivalent of Chick tracts.

I like you for actually willing to talk and be respectful, not like the other people who hurl insults against something many people hold sacred. And Muslims believe Jesus didn't die on a cross...now I cannot confirm because Hadith and Koran says nay that they know we raised him up into the heavens...now does that mean he died and his soul was raised into another body? Or it means he was literally himself raised up and is in the second heaven...I think it means he was literally but some disagree...

And there is many Hadith, I just look at the similiarities and ones confirmed by Hanafi schools

I am no authority, obviously, but it seems to me that the Quran states that Jesus was not defeated in His death on the cross and that He was born of a virgin and raised up into Heaven makes them more faithful to core Christian history than the typical Episcopalian or Congregationalist.

And yet we emphasize the points that seem to be in conflict with the Quran while largely ignoring the heresy of the two Protestant groups whom I doubt are even really theistic any more, much less Christian.

I think the constant emphasis on disagreement with a large Abrahamic group of people who affirm 90% of Christian Gospel history and refer to blatant heretics as bretheren is not a wise choice.

Of course, your milage may vary.

Yeah, they aren't in conflcit as some people make it sound like...so are you a Christian? Or you study all religions

 

[rightwinger]

You are supposed to nail through the wrist. The palm cannot bear your bodies weight

 

[JimBowie1958]

He can say whatever, buts that's very foolish, and what was that supposed to mean serisously? Does that really mean anything is that how people demonize Islam just by saying that not having a real long discussion? Why are people of afraid of discussing Islam and Christianity, did Ahmed Deedat prove Christians wrong?

Yes, he was doing the agit-prop thing of heightening contrasts and then trying to make a point of the very different nature of one from the other with one being superior.

For example, though it is said that a faithful Muslim will have virgins in heaven, I think it mostly an allegory, or else what do the faithful Muslim women get? male virgins? I dont hink it is intended literally, but to say that heaven is pure, enjoyable and will be a suitable reward to the righteous.

I suspect BIK realizes this, but he is trying to acheive a good ends with an unfair evaluation that is not intellectually honest.

But then, to say you have no idea what he meant with his post, is that intellectually honest either?

I don't know how God will reward people, there are some people who took all of Gods words by heart and gave their lives for him...only God knows who deserves the best. And I don't mind what's in heaven, the virgins are for people who die before marriage, and they are made out of light, I also don't know what that means. But people who stay virgins their whole life and die before marriage. Particularly martyrs of war, they will get married in Paradaise I dont see how's that a bad thing.

Well, my own personal theory, not to be taken as Catholic at all, is that what Jesus described as Hell, the plce of the dead, was divided into two parts, the bosom of Abraham on one side and the place of fire called Gehena on the other side of a great divide or the Abyss.

When Jesus died, He broke through the walls of Hell and opened the way for people to go from the bossom of Abraham and into the Divine Presence of God, and this was symbolized by the tearing of the Temple veil between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies, again, just in my opinion. The promise made to the theif on the cross was of entering the bossom of Abraham which He refered to as Paradise.

Once the way was open to the Divine Presence of God, Paradise assumed an unintuitive toremental nature to it. Because when we die and stand before God in our own particular Judgement, we behold his glory, His love and the peace only He can give. As we become innured to the pleasures and peace of Paradise we become unsatisfied with it, until the only thing that can truly quench the longing of our suls is to return to that Divine Presence that we had experienced before in our own individual judgement.

The memory of God and being with Him again will ignite a great pain that will grow greater over time, as one would have when a loved one is taken away and we look forward to being with them again. This pain grows stronger, but not a bad pain, as it is a pain that comes from intense love, an almost wonderful pain. This is the Purgaotry that most Catholic theologians spoke of before the corrupt within the church realized that they could make money from the idea that the righteous are suffering in a place similar to Gehenna itself.

Anyway, this whole process I think is dynamic, and as some move from Purgatory/Paradise and into the Presence of God, some might also move from Gehena and into Paradise. The Bible does not say that this cannot happen but only that the 'fires of hell are eternal' which is not necesarily meaning that everyone will stay there for all eternity.

In fact, I have great faith that, after the Great Throne Judgement, God's Love will triumph over all. The Bible says that His Will is irresistable and His Love conquors all. But it also says that it is His Will that all men be saved. This paradox is only avoided if we hold that those damend to hell will be there to the White Throne judgement but will eventually emerge from Gehena as they genuinely repent which the omniscient Creator will know when it happens.

So, I suspect that everyone will bow to God first in awe, then later in love and the greatest triumph He will have is in the end when Satan himself will prostrate himself before God Almighty's Throne and beg to be forgiven and God will give it. His Love truly is irresistable.

So tome, it isnt so much a choice between the fires of Gehena or Heaven so much as it is a choice about the path we will take to eventually arrive in Gods Divine Presence.

Note, this is not the heresy of Origen's universal Salvation, but quite different, and it does not make the Gospel irrelevant since avoiding inumerable passages of time in Gehena is as desirable as an eternity there. The real question that faces mankind is, 'Why fight the Love of God? Why go the hard route?'

 

[Dajjal]

The quran says that Jesus was not crucified.

WAS NOT CRUCIFIED!

Now that is a real issue, as for one thing the quran says it confirms all the previous messages, and to deny the crucifixion is to totally trash the entire Christian message, along with most of the New Testament of the bible.
Without the crucifixion there might as well be no christianity, for what impact would it have had if Jesus had not been persecuted to death and then forgiven his murderers from the cross. It is that message that converted the Romans to Christianity in the time of Constantine.
It is that example that led the christians to face Nero's persecution only 43 years after Jesus death. Which is within living memory.




The quran also states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.

Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"

Sura 5.73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.

But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer.
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37

Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.


It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27

But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger.


The following are the bible texts that state denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.

Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke:12 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.

1Co:6 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co:12 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I like you for actually willing to talk and be respectful, not like the other people who hurl insults against something many people hold sacred. And Muslims believe Jesus didn't die on a cross...now I cannot confirm because Hadith and Koran says nay that they know we raised him up into the heavens...now does that mean he died and his soul was raised into another body? Or it means he was literally himself raised up and is in the second heaven...I think it means he was literally but some disagree...

And there is many Hadith, I just look at the similiarities and ones confirmed by Hanafi schools

I am no authority, obviously, but it seems to me that the Quran states that Jesus was not defeated in His death on the cross and that He was born of a virgin and raised up into Heaven makes them more faithful to core Christian history than the typical Episcopalian or Congregationalist.

And yet we emphasize the points that seem to be in conflict with the Quran while largely ignoring the heresy of the two Protestant groups whom I doubt are even really theistic any more, much less Christian.

I think the constant emphasis on disagreement with a large Abrahamic group of people who affirm 90% of Christian Gospel history and refer to blatant heretics as bretheren is not a wise choice.

Of course, your milage may vary.

Yeah, they aren't in conflcit as some people make it sound like...so are you a Christian? Or you study all religions

They are not in as much conflict as some would like to think. Some gain from dividing Abrahamic faiths against each other, but it isnt Truth that benefits from it.

And I have amental defect in that I enjoy reading and learning for its own sake and for the feeling of profound realization. It is a pleasure like no other.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Yes, he was doing the agit-prop thing of heightening contrasts and then trying to make a point of the very different nature of one from the other with one being superior.

For example, though it is said that a faithful Muslim will have virgins in heaven, I think it mostly an allegory, or else what do the faithful Muslim women get? male virgins? I dont hink it is intended literally, but to say that heaven is pure, enjoyable and will be a suitable reward to the righteous.

I suspect BIK realizes this, but he is trying to acheive a good ends with an unfair evaluation that is not intellectually honest.

But then, to say you have no idea what he meant with his post, is that intellectually honest either?

I don't know how God will reward people, there are some people who took all of Gods words by heart and gave their lives for him...only God knows who deserves the best. And I don't mind what's in heaven, the virgins are for people who die before marriage, and they are made out of light, I also don't know what that means. But people who stay virgins their whole life and die before marriage. Particularly martyrs of war, they will get married in Paradaise I dont see how's that a bad thing.

Well, my own personal theory, not to be taken as Catholic at all, is that what Jesus described as Hell, the plce of the dead, was divided into two parts, the bosom of Abraham on one side and the place of fire called Gehena on the other side of a great divide or the Abyss.

When Jesus died, He broke through the walls of Hell and opened the way for people to go from the bossom of Abraham and into the Divine Presence of God, and this was symbolized by the tearing of the Temple veil between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies, again, just in my opinion. The promise made to the theif on the cross was of entering the bossom of Abraham which He refered to as Paradise.

Once the way was open to the Divine Presence of God, Paradise assumed an unintuitive toremental nature to it. Because when we die and stand before God in our own particular Judgement, we behold his glory, His love and the peace only He can give. As we become innured to the pleasures and peace of Paradise we become unsatisfied with it, until the only thing that can truly quench the longing of our suls is to return to that Divine Presence that we had experienced before in our own individual judgement.

The memory of God and being with Him again will ignite a great pain that will grow greater over time, as one would have when a loved one is taken away and we look forward to being with them again. This pain grows stronger, but not a bad pain, as it is a pain that comes from intense love, an almost wonderful pain. This is the Purgaotry that most Catholic theologians spoke of before the corrupt within the church realized that they could make money from the idea that the righteous are suffering in a place similar to Gehenna itself.

Anyway, this whole process I think is dynamic, and as some move from Purgatory/Paradise and into the Presence of God, some might also move from Gehena and into Paradise. The Bible does not say that this cannot happen but only that the 'fires of hell are eternal' which is not necesarily meaning that everyone will stay there for all eternity.

In fact, I have great faith that, after the Great Throne Judgement, God's Love will triumph over all. The Bible says that His Will is irresistable and His Love conquors all. But it also says that it is His Will that all men be saved. This paradox is only avoided if we hold that those damend to hell will be there to the White Throne judgement but will eventually emerge from Gehena as they genuinely repent which the omniscient Creator will know when it happens.

So, I suspect that everyone will bow to God first in awe, then later in love and the greatest triumph He will have is in the end when Satan himself will prostrate himself before God Almighty's Throne and beg to be forgiven and God will give it. His Love truly is irresistable.

So tome, it isnt so much a choice between the fires of Gehena or Heaven so much as it is a choice about the path we will take to eventually arrive in Gods Divine Presence.

Note, this is not the heresy of Origen's universal Salvation, but quite different, and it does not make the Gospel irrelevant since avoiding inumerable passages of time in Gehena is as desirable as an eternity there. The real question that faces mankind is, 'Why fight the Love of God? Why go the hard route?'

You made a lot of good points, when God says fires are eternal, he doesn't mean everyone in Hellfire will be there forever...I think eventually everyone will be out...also I know what you mean about God, i wouldn't say it is love as we see it. It's his generosity, and mercifulness...and I dont think he will forgive Satan either...some people he will forgive but doesn't mean he will love them.....

There is a Hadith that says the last man out of Hellfire...here it is he is very forgiving but he might not love those people...


*Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (Hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (Hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, 'Go and enter Paradise.' He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, 'O Lord, I have found it full.' Allah will say, 'Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).' On that, the man will say, 'Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?" I saw Allah's Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise. *

 

[emptystep]

I can thank a wandering Jehovah's Witness for knowing about this.

The Pagan Origins of the Cross.
The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"

Sura 5.73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.

This is an example of what I am talking about when I observe how people take things out of context.

Where did you read these passages? From a critic of Islam or from the Quran itself?

If from the Quran itself, you would realize that Allah is in the Muslim view what Christians refer to as the Father, and so the text is not contradictory when understood this way, and the 'in a Trinity' is parenthetical. At the time of the Quran the predominate view of the Trinity was from the Nestorian church whose concept of the Trinity was deeply flawed. So in the context of the meaning of 'Trinity' at that time you and I would also deny it as valid unless we could specify that Jesus was both Divine and Man.

Again, it is not Truth that is served by these divisions of one Abrahamic faith against the other, but the interests of others who gain from our division.

Who do you serve? Really, are you trying to win a point to build your ego or are you trying to serve the state by building morale agains the heathen or are you trying to serve God by genuinely exploring the Truth as best you can perceive it and grow as a human being?

If the latter, then you should realize the breadth we have to give people of other faiths and viewpoints regarding faith for you will have changed your faith and world view many times by now.

But if you have not made such changes, and think you just miraculously got lucky enough to be born in the exactly and uniquely correct faith, I have to ask you to question the genuiness of this search you have for Truth.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You made a lot of good points, when God says fires are eternal, he doesn't mean everyone in Hellfire will be there forever...I think eventually everyone will be out...also I know what you mean about God, i wouldn't say it is love as we see it. It's his generosity, and mercifulness...and I dont think he will forgive Satan either...some people he will forgive but doesn't mean he will love them.....

There is a Hadith that says the last man out of Hellfire...here it is he is very forgiving but he might not love those people...


*Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (Hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (Hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, 'Go and enter Paradise.' He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, 'O Lord, I have found it full.' Allah will say, 'Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).' On that, the man will say, 'Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?" I saw Allah's Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise. *

Yeah, that is a beautiful story, and I suspect it may well become literally true.

As for Satan, I think God does love him for what he was once, but now hates the evil he does and what that evil does to His Creation. The Bible says that Satan before his fall was the most beautiful of Creation. I think God has a purpose to allowing Satan to fall and that is to give us all genuine choice from free will and also to show the depth and breadth of His Love and Mercy.

When Satan sees that he has been abandoned by everyone and is alone in Gehena holding on desperately to his lies about God and his hatred for good, he willf inally start to face the Truth about himself and thenature of his fall. I suspect he will repent and he will be the ultimate demonstration of Gods Love and Mercy. But this wont happen soley for the sake of Satans soul, but for the Glory of God and teh final proof that His Love, His Will and His Mercy cannot be frustrated by anyone.

Glory be to God the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else beside them.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I can thank a wandering Jehovah's Witness for knowing about this.

The Pagan Origins of the Cross.
The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

That is erroneous, as the cross the church reveres is a symbol of what the Romans did to Jesus and the early church fathers, and of little more than that.

The cross itself is a very basic geometrical shape and to assert that other symbols of similar shapes are somehow related to the meaning and purpose the church uses the cross for based on that similar shape is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

You made a lot of good points, when God says fires are eternal, he doesn't mean everyone in Hellfire will be there forever...I think eventually everyone will be out...also I know what you mean about God, i wouldn't say it is love as we see it. It's his generosity, and mercifulness...and I dont think he will forgive Satan either...some people he will forgive but doesn't mean he will love them.....

There is a Hadith that says the last man out of Hellfire...here it is he is very forgiving but he might not love those people...


*Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (Hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (Hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, 'Go and enter Paradise.' He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, 'O Lord, I have found it full.' Allah will say, 'Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).' On that, the man will say, 'Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?" I saw Allah's Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise. *

Yeah, that is a beautiful story, and I suspect it may well become literally true.

As for Satan, I think God does love him for what he was once, but now hates the evil he does and what that evil does to His Creation. The Bible says that Satan before his fall was the most beautiful of Creation. I think God has a purpose to allowing Satan to fall and that is to give us all genuine choice from free will and also to show the depth and breadth of His Love and Mercy.

When Satan sees that he has been abandoned by everyone and is alone in Gehena holding on desperately to his lies about God and his hatred for good, he willf inally start to face the Truth about himself and thenature of his fall. I suspect he will repent and he will be the ultimate demonstration of Gods Love and Mercy. But this wont happen soley for the sake of Satans soul, but for the Glory of God and teh final proof that His Love, His Will and His Mercy cannot be frustrated by anyone.

Glory be to God the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else beside them.

I don't know exactly how things wil be but hopefully for the righteous it will be a beatiful and loving scene....and the presence of peace...of god...imagine us all in heaven feeling peace and God is watching us and speaks to us maybe daily...and I will still pray to him if I go to Paradaise God willing.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You are supposed to nail through the wrist. The palm cannot bear your bodies weight

You are a troll, but you make a valid point, but that is why it is depicted that ropes and chords were tied to the arms to help bear the wait.

That was the common understanding until the Shroud of Turin became popularly viewed in the West and showed the nails as having gone through the wrists. Even then most people still did not understand the actual location till the 20th century, if I recall correctly.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You made a lot of good points, when God says fires are eternal, he doesn't mean everyone in Hellfire will be there forever...I think eventually everyone will be out...also I know what you mean about God, i wouldn't say it is love as we see it. It's his generosity, and mercifulness...and I dont think he will forgive Satan either...some people he will forgive but doesn't mean he will love them.....

There is a Hadith that says the last man out of Hellfire...here it is he is very forgiving but he might not love those people...


*Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (Hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (Hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, 'Go and enter Paradise.' He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, 'O Lord, I have found it full.' Allah will say, 'Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).' On that, the man will say, 'Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?" I saw Allah's Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise. *

Yeah, that is a beautiful story, and I suspect it may well become literally true.

As for Satan, I think God does love him for what he was once, but now hates the evil he does and what that evil does to His Creation. The Bible says that Satan before his fall was the most beautiful of Creation. I think God has a purpose to allowing Satan to fall and that is to give us all genuine choice from free will and also to show the depth and breadth of His Love and Mercy.

When Satan sees that he has been abandoned by everyone and is alone in Gehena holding on desperately to his lies about God and his hatred for good, he willf inally start to face the Truth about himself and thenature of his fall. I suspect he will repent and he will be the ultimate demonstration of Gods Love and Mercy. But this wont happen soley for the sake of Satans soul, but for the Glory of God and teh final proof that His Love, His Will and His Mercy cannot be frustrated by anyone.

Glory be to God the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else beside them.

I don't know exactly how things wil be but hopefully for the righteous it will be a beatiful and loving scene....and the presence of peace...of god...imagine us all in heaven feeling peace and God is watching us and speaks to us maybe daily...and I will still pray to him if I go to Paradaise God willing.

Yes, this is one of my favorite things to dwell my mind on.

Better than sex, believe me, no bullshit.

But I dont claim to know anything really, I just try to understand what we can learn through the prophets about heaven and the afterlife. And they like to use symbolism alot, which is probably because human language is not up to the task of describing the beauty and joy adequately so symbols are all that can be used to best convey that meaning. So while this informs it also clouds things to some degree, but it also heightens the mystery as well.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Yeah, that is a beautiful story, and I suspect it may well become literally true.

As for Satan, I think God does love him for what he was once, but now hates the evil he does and what that evil does to His Creation. The Bible says that Satan before his fall was the most beautiful of Creation. I think God has a purpose to allowing Satan to fall and that is to give us all genuine choice from free will and also to show the depth and breadth of His Love and Mercy.

When Satan sees that he has been abandoned by everyone and is alone in Gehena holding on desperately to his lies about God and his hatred for good, he willf inally start to face the Truth about himself and thenature of his fall. I suspect he will repent and he will be the ultimate demonstration of Gods Love and Mercy. But this wont happen soley for the sake of Satans soul, but for the Glory of God and teh final proof that His Love, His Will and His Mercy cannot be frustrated by anyone.

Glory be to God the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else beside them.

I don't know exactly how things wil be but hopefully for the righteous it will be a beatiful and loving scene....and the presence of peace...of god...imagine us all in heaven feeling peace and God is watching us and speaks to us maybe daily...and I will still pray to him if I go to Paradaise God willing.

Yes, this is one of my favorite things to dwell my mind on.

Better than sex, believe me, no bullshit.

I'm still young and I don't plan on having sex before marriage, I'm waiting till marriage...and I have God on my mind 24/7 but I dont think it will come easy because I met very devout people...it's more than we think...I want to be very high with some of the first thousands to walk into Paradaise and those will mostly be Prohets, followers of Prophets, and martyrs and poor followers of God...so it will be hard

 

[emptystep]

I can thank a wandering Jehovah's Witness for knowing about this.

The Pagan Origins of the Cross.
The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

That is erroneous, as the cross the church reveres is a symbol of what the Romans did to Jesus and the early church fathers, and of little more than that.

The cross itself is a very basic geometrical shape and to assert that other symbols of similar shapes are somehow related to the meaning and purpose the church uses the cross for based on that similar shape is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

I'm not taking sides here, just passing on something I thought relevant and interesting. Especially since people are nailing themselves to a pagan symbol. Here it is from the WatchTower itself, http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs.htm:


Jesus crucified on a stake not a cross

They reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.

 

[emptystep]

And since there is a Mormon running for President I thought their take on the cross might be of interest. From:
"
WHY DON'T MORMONS USE THE CROSS?

It is a strange thing that Mormons, while claiming to be Christian and to believe in the bible, are truly repulsed by the Cross of Christ. It is absolutely unacceptable for any LDS person to wear a Cross necklace or to display a Cross in their home or anywhere else. If an LDS member showed up to sacrament meeting wearing a Cross, they would receive immediate stares and looks of disapproval from the members in the ward and would, no doubt, be chastised by some in between meetings (I have indeed seen that happen on several occasions).

When asked about the reasons for the avoidance of the Cross, church members and leaders will explain that they believe in the living Christ and not in a dead Christ. Further, they will often explain that they focus on Christ’s suffering in Gethsemane for the sins of the world and not on the Cross which was merely where he died. They may also say that they focus on his resurrection and not the method of his death.
"

Later the author states what I think you were saying Jim.
"
For the Christian, the cross is the symbol of life, salvation and triumph over sin and death.
"

 

[JimBowie1958]

I can thank a wandering Jehovah's Witness for knowing about this.

The Pagan Origins of the Cross.
The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

That is erroneous, as the cross the church reveres is a symbol of what the Romans did to Jesus and the early church fathers, and of little more than that.

The cross itself is a very basic geometrical shape and to assert that other symbols of similar shapes are somehow related to the meaning and purpose the church uses the cross for based on that similar shape is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

I'm not taking sides here, just passing on something I thought relevant and interesting. Especially since people are nailing themselves to a pagan symbol. Here it is from the WatchTower itself, http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs.htm:


Jesus crucified on a stake not a cross

They reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.

There are plenty of secular histories from inside and outside the Roman Empire that show the Romans used a cross not a pike or stake.

Had the Romans done that, then why would they adopt a cross rather than a pike?

For shits sake, you just pull any old bullshit from any group of wankers that you think will make an argument no matter how flimsy?

Your troll fu is weak.

 

[JimBowie1958]

And since there is a Mormon running for President I thought their take on the cross might be of interest. From:
"
WHY DON'T MORMONS USE THE CROSS?

It is a strange thing that Mormons, while claiming to be Christian and to believe in the bible, are truly repulsed by the Cross of Christ. It is absolutely unacceptable for any LDS person to wear a Cross necklace or to display a Cross in their home or anywhere else. If an LDS member showed up to sacrament meeting wearing a Cross, they would receive immediate stares and looks of disapproval from the members in the ward and would, no doubt, be chastised by some in between meetings (I have indeed seen that happen on several occasions).

When asked about the reasons for the avoidance of the Cross, church members and leaders will explain that they believe in the living Christ and not in a dead Christ. Further, they will often explain that they focus on Christ’s suffering in Gethsemane for the sins of the world and not on the Cross which was merely where he died. They may also say that they focus on his resurrection and not the method of his death.
"

Later the author states what I think you were saying Jim.
"
For the Christian, the cross is the symbol of life, salvation and triumph over sin and death.
"

You know, when one allows diversity, as the church has been forced to accept by the Grace of God since the beginning of the Modern era, you cannot avoid the 'Elvis is still alive' fringe from popping up.

And if you know much about Mormonism then you should know that their regard for the cross is small potatoes compared to the rest of their view of God and the origin of things.

 

[Dajjal]

You are supposed to nail through the wrist. The palm cannot bear your bodies weight

You are a troll, but you make a valid point, but that is why it is depicted that ropes and chords were tied to the arms to help bear the wait.

That was the common understanding until the Shroud of Turin became popularly viewed in the West and showed the nails as having gone through the wrists. Even then most people still did not understand the actual location till the 20th century, if I recall correctly.

The shroud of turin has been carbon dated, and proved to be a medieval fake.